Warwick/Adiji/ Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

[Guest guest]

Warwick Wakefield [formandsubstance (AT) tpg (DOT) com.au] Sent:

Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:57 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Re:

Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !Hi adi_shakti

And then Barry Long in Australia styled himself "the guru of love".

A friend of mine had an affair, a sexual fling, with Bazza Long before he re-invented himself.

At that stage he was trying to convey the impression that he was

something of a saint, that he'd transcended sex and all the other

nasty practices that held ordinary folk in bondage. So he said to my

friend, "You mustn't tell anyone about our affair; it will bring you

dreadful karma if you tell anyone."

***********************************************************************************************************

I would love to hear story of a guru who has affairs with his female

devotees and states, "Young women, go tell everyone. It will bring

you really really good karma." That is an unrealistic expectation and

probably bad for business, at least in the short run.

One need not have a Ph.D. in psychology to figure out that sexual and

romantic attraction between men and women is a huge force of nature

and it does not abate when a person joins a church, a temple, an

ashram or when people become "spiritual" etc. I posted the story of

one of Sri Ramana's devotee having an affair with a woman in the town

below once. The other devotees were very upset with this man and

wanted to kick him out of the Ashram permanently. Bhagavan however

was sympathetic and basically said to the "guilty man" and I

paraphrase, "You are not so bad but you got caught with the woman and

all these other people who have not been caught yet are mad with

you!." :-).

By the way, I have heard similar stories about many other gurus (some

well known and revered) who have had affairs with their female

devotees. Also there have been stories of female gurus having sex

with their male devotees as well. It goes both ways! One thing is

crystal clear. People like to have sex! Some gurus have even been

sued because of their indiscretions and taken to court. Many

different perspectives are possible on these incidents.

I know very well what Sri Ramana would say to such "fallen" gurus if

they came to him weeping over their sins. He would say, "You are not

so bad........".

The Sage of Arunachala exemplified compassion and kindness in every

fiber of his being. His easy and natural Self- Realization at such an

innocent age had left him with the tenderness of a mother. For those

who are ready, even a glance from Bhagavan is enough to clear up the

path for them.

Its all part of the scenic ride we are taking.

Love to all

Harsha

[Guest guest]

Hey Harsha,

you missed the point!

I am not condemning sex.

Not for a moment. (Although I don't agree with the exaggerated claims of D.H Lawrence either.)

What I am saying , and it was really very obvious,

is that when people make extraordinary claims about themselves,

as Bazza Long did....(I am as enlightened as any Buddha)

and then they behave in particularly devious, dishonest, self-serving and manipulative ways,

it is time to take all their grandiose claims

and chuck them in the rubbish bin.

Harsha, I am not advocating a false-guru hit squad.

In Britain, and in continental Europe, and in North America,

in fact in most modern countries,

there is freedom of speech, and I am all for it.

Let anyone who wants to proclaim himself, or herself, to be the World Saviour (as Andrew Cohen does)

or A Totally Enlightened Master,

or a half-enlightened seeker,

or an Occasionally Enlightened Non-person,

whatever they want.

Freedom of speech; I'm all for it.

But then, when someone makes certain claims about his, or her, extraordinary enlightenment,

and encourages adulation,

and all the rest of it, you have been around, I don't have to spell it out,

then it is appropriate that, if those claims are demonstrably phoney,

that same freedom of speech is applicable to those who would cast some light on the absurdity

of the self-glorification.

This is such a simple point,

this is so obviously true,

this is so obviously a part of the process of shedding the false beliefs

that make us think we are bound

that I am quite frankly amazed that you make any objection.

Much love

Warwick

P.S. There was a well-known spiritual teacher in Holland, who died not so long ago,

who openly had sexual affairs with his female students.

>From everything I have heard, he acted without a trace of hypocrisy.

And I personally know quite a few teachers who are sexually active

and make no claims to personal sainthood or personal grandeur.

-

Harsha

Saturday, April 24, 2004 9:59 AM

Warwick/Adiji/ Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Warwick Wakefield [formandsubstance (AT) tpg (DOT) com.au] Sent:

Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:57 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Re:

Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !Hi adi_shakti

And then Barry Long in Australia styled himself "the guru of love".

A friend of mine had an affair, a sexual fling, with Bazza Long before he re-invented himself.

At that stage he was trying to convey the impression that he was

something of a saint, that he'd transcended sex and all the other

nasty practices that held ordinary folk in bondage. So he said to my

friend, "You mustn't tell anyone about our affair; it will bring you

dreadful karma if you tell anyone."

***********************************************************************************************************

I would love to hear story of a guru who has affairs with his female

devotees and states, "Young women, go tell everyone. It will bring

you really really good karma." That is an unrealistic expectation and

probably bad for business, at least in the short run.

One need not have a Ph.D. in psychology to figure out that sexual and

romantic attraction between men and women is a huge force of nature

and it does not abate when a person joins a church, a temple, an

ashram or when people become "spiritual" etc. I posted the story of

one of Sri Ramana's devotee having an affair with a woman in the town

below once. The other devotees were very upset with this man and

wanted to kick him out of the Ashram permanently. Bhagavan however

was sympathetic and basically said to the "guilty man" and I

paraphrase, "You are not so bad but you got caught with the woman and

all these other people who have not been caught yet are mad with

you!." :-).

By the way, I have heard similar stories about many other gurus (some

well known and revered) who have had affairs with their female

devotees. Also there have been stories of female gurus having sex

with their male devotees as well. It goes both ways! One thing is

crystal clear. People like to have sex! Some gurus have even been

sued because of their indiscretions and taken to court. Many

different perspectives are possible on these incidents.

I know very well what Sri Ramana would say to such "fallen" gurus if

they came to him weeping over their sins. He would say, "You are not

so bad........".

The Sage of Arunachala exemplified compassion and kindness in every

fiber of his being. His easy and natural Self- Realization at such an

innocent age had left him with the tenderness of a mother. For those

who are ready, even a glance from Bhagavan is enough to clear up the

path for them.

Its all part of the scenic ride we are taking.

Love to all

Harsha

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

[Guest guest]

Hi Warwick,

Did you ever meet this guy Bazza? It strikes me that you may have a

concept about the meaning of his statement "I am enlightened as any

buddha". I don't know. Never met him. Don't know the context within

which the comment was made.

 

The Osho guy also? Meet him? I've heard lot's of stories about him

(never heard of bazza). Some people had fabulous tales to tell (type)

of their experience of him, with him, after him etc. Some heavenly,

some hellish. All interesting.

 

An english composition teacher once said "write what you know".

Authentic voice "sounds" different from opinion to me. Tell us some of

your stories? Drop a story line?

 

Lynne

[Guest guest]

To all who are interested

whoever claims to be "enlightened" be beware of this

person

whoever "preaches" hate poison

whoever states

only my way is t h e way say goodbye

whoever claims to have

to save others from "hell" poison

whoever claims that you will end in hell if you are not baptized

poison

friends: this is a "reality" teached by romancatholics in schools

in Italy and who knows

in which other countries too

whoever states sexuality is bad lacks understanding of

one of the most holy ways

to LOVE

but for experiencing and understanding this it seems you have to have

travelled a long way on the road.....

thank you for being with you

michael bindel

-

Warwick Wakefield

Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:08 AM

Re: Warwick/Adiji/ Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Hey Harsha,

you missed the point!

I am not condemning sex.

Not for a moment. (Although I don't agree with the exaggerated claims of D.H Lawrence either.)

What I am saying , and it was really very obvious,

is that when people make extraordinary claims about themselves,

as Bazza Long did....(I am as enlightened as any Buddha)

and then they behave in particularly devious, dishonest, self-serving and manipulative ways,

it is time to take all their grandiose claims

and chuck them in the rubbish bin.

Harsha, I am not advocating a false-guru hit squad.

In Britain, and in continental Europe, and in North America,

in fact in most modern countries,

there is freedom of speech, and I am all for it.

Let anyone who wants to proclaim himself, or herself, to be the World Saviour (as Andrew Cohen does)

or A Totally Enlightened Master,

or a half-enlightened seeker,

or an Occasionally Enlightened Non-person,

whatever they want.

Freedom of speech; I'm all for it.

But then, when someone makes certain claims about his, or her, extraordinary enlightenment,

and encourages adulation,

and all the rest of it, you have been around, I don't have to spell it out,

then it is appropriate that, if those claims are demonstrably phoney,

that same freedom of speech is applicable to those who would cast some light on the absurdity

of the self-glorification.

This is such a simple point,

this is so obviously true,

this is so obviously a part of the process of shedding the false beliefs

that make us think we are bound

that I am quite frankly amazed that you make any objection.

Much love

Warwick

P.S. There was a well-known spiritual teacher in Holland, who died not so long ago,

who openly had sexual affairs with his female students.

>From everything I have heard, he acted without a trace of hypocrisy.

And I personally know quite a few teachers who are sexually active

and make no claims to personal sainthood or personal grandeur.

-

Harsha

Saturday, April 24, 2004 9:59 AM

Warwick/Adiji/ Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Warwick Wakefield [formandsubstance (AT) tpg (DOT) com.au] Sent:

Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:57 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Re:

Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !Hi adi_shakti

And then Barry Long in Australia styled himself "the guru of love".

A friend of mine had an affair, a sexual fling, with Bazza Long before he re-invented himself.

At that stage he was trying to convey the impression that he was

something of a saint, that he'd transcended sex and all the other

nasty practices that held ordinary folk in bondage. So he said to my

friend, "You mustn't tell anyone about our affair; it will bring you

dreadful karma if you tell anyone."

***********************************************************************************************************

I would love to hear story of a guru who has affairs with his female

devotees and states, "Young women, go tell everyone. It will bring

you really really good karma." That is an unrealistic expectation and

probably bad for business, at least in the short run.

One need not have a Ph.D. in psychology to figure out that sexual and

romantic attraction between men and women is a huge force of nature

and it does not abate when a person joins a church, a temple, an

ashram or when people become "spiritual" etc. I posted the story of

one of Sri Ramana's devotee having an affair with a woman in the town

below once. The other devotees were very upset with this man and

wanted to kick him out of the Ashram permanently. Bhagavan however

was sympathetic and basically said to the "guilty man" and I

paraphrase, "You are not so bad but you got caught with the woman and

all these other people who have not been caught yet are mad with

you!." :-).

By the way, I have heard similar stories about many other gurus (some

well known and revered) who have had affairs with their female

devotees. Also there have been stories of female gurus having sex

with their male devotees as well. It goes both ways! One thing is

crystal clear. People like to have sex! Some gurus have even been

sued because of their indiscretions and taken to court. Many

different perspectives are possible on these incidents.

I know very well what Sri Ramana would say to such "fallen" gurus if

they came to him weeping over their sins. He would say, "You are not

so bad........".

The Sage of Arunachala exemplified compassion and kindness in every

fiber of his being. His easy and natural Self- Realization at such an

innocent age had left him with the tenderness of a mother. For those

who are ready, even a glance from Bhagavan is enough to clear up the

path for them.

Its all part of the scenic ride we are taking.

Love to all

Harsha

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynne,

Yes, I met both of these guys.

I met Rajneesh somewhere around 1971 or 72. It was just after he left

Bombay and moved to Poona, up in the hills.

I spent maybe two years in Poona, as a disciple, and I spent maybe

twelve or thirteen years altogether as a disciple.

When I left the fold it was with no hard feelings and I still

considered that he was probably the Satguru that he claimed to be;

(What did I know? I was no spiritual adept-- That was the way that

we Sannyasins used to think and talk.) It was only later that the

pennies dropped and it became clear what a fraud he was.

I met Barry Long at his first series of meetings in Sydney. Somewhere

around the late eighties.He advertised them with half-page

advertisements in the local broadsheet and a few hundred people

attended. He was a smooth talker. I expect he had had some kind of

awakening experience, and he made a nice little earner out of it.

And I met him again in the mid-nineties, this time when I was a member

of the Cohen cult, and when I met him this time, the second time, it

was after Cohen had endorsed him as the genuine article.

Now Lynne, I could tell you hundreds of stories about Rajneesh. But

what would be a really relevant story?

The way I see it, a really relevant story would be either

1) A story that illustrated his authentic understanding of what is our

real essence, and his ability to teach that to others. (And I know;

there are no "others", but the statement that there are no "others"

only has relevance in a certain context, a context of much deeper

understanding than we are operating in at the moment.)

2) A story that illustrated that he really lacked this understanding,

and behaved in such a way that it was obvious that he didn't at all

know who he was.

The way I see it, stories of "going into rapture" in his presence are

not relevant. That happens at pop concerts. It was very common at

Hitler's rallies. There can be dozens of causes, ranging from having

one's pre-conceived ideas confirmed in an especially vigorous way to

having one's emotional susceptibilities manipulated.

It can happen in the presence of a Master also, but I think that the

most interesting story I've ever heard in relation to rapture in the

presence of a Master was the account of one seeker who visited

Ramana. He used to fall into bliss during satsang, but something

about it made him uneasy. After much reflection, he understood that

while the bliss was wonderful, after the bliss had passed he was in

much the same condition of ignorance as before. So, at the next

Satsang, when he felt the onset of bliss, instead of just giving

himself over to it he struggled to maintain his awareness of "who he

was" and what was the relevance of the presence (or Presence) of the

Master in relation to that question of all questions, "Who am I?"

I forget all the details now, but I remember that he did receive an

answer to that question, and that answer stayed with him after the

satsang was finished. In other words, his ignorance was, at least to

some extent, destroyed.

Now Lynne, I am going to put my cards on the table. There are great

revelations, there are intuitions and inklings, there are

intellectual understandings and there are understandings that affect

not only the intellect but have a transformative effect on the fibres

of the body, the structure of the emotions and one's moment to moment

experience.

During my adolescence and young manhood I had many inklings of a

spiritual presence. Inklings and intuitions that were relevant and

good, but left me in as much ignorance as ever.

When I was about twenty one I began reading a book about Buddhism. The

book gave an historical and cultural outline; it mentioned Buddhism's

arising, its rapid spread, the societies that grew up around it and

the magnificent artworks, temples, statuary, paintings, song and

suchlike that were rooted in, and expressions of, Buddhism.

Then it dropped the bombshell -- it said that the Buddhists themselves

regarded all of this magnificence, at the level of society, at the

level of the world, at the level of culture and art, as unreal, as no

more than a dream, an illusion.

I threw the book away. No point reading junk like that.

But five or six years later I had an experience which had no relation

to anything I could understand, and it occurred to me, with total

certainty, "My God, those crazy Buddhists were right; the whole world

was a dream, Warwick was a dream, the only reality is....whatever this

non-thing is."

But the person of Warwick came back, and the world came back, and I began the spiritual search.

I was a Rajneeshee, an encounter grouper, and a member of the Cohen Cult. All to no effect.

But over the last three or four years I have been given glimpses of my

true nature.....which is also your true nature.

I have seen, with great clarity, who, or what, I really am --- what is my essence.

It has not been accompanied by the tremendous bliss that accompanied

my realization, when I was a young man, that the world and the

persons in it, and he whom I had believed myself to be, were dream.

But it is much more valuable. It is what various Advaitists call

knowing, not the knowing of an object but a knowing that is totally

subjective, the knowing of the knower. And this knowing is available

more or less whenever I look for it.

And the implication of this knowing is that we are not flesh and blood

bodies, and we are not thinking and feeling beings, we are spiritual

being. Not beings --- being.

And we do not live in a material world, the world is also spiritual

-- forms within consciousness.

Consciousness is, in fact, that within which every happening occurs.

And the happenings are not what is important --- what is important

is that within which the happenings take place, consciousness, the

Self.

Now Lynne, before I tell you about Rajneesh, the relevant things about

Rajneesh, and before I tell you about Long, I want you to tell me

about you.

What type of spiritual search, or practice, are you involved in?

What has been your real experience?

How significant is it all, not theoretically but in terms of actual experience?

I have no intention of making any judgment, but I want to talk to you, not some vague entity.

Much love

Warwick

-

Lynne

Saturday, April 24, 2004 2:59 PM

Re: Warwick/Adiji/ Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Hi Warwick,Did you ever meet this guy Bazza? It strikes me that you

may have a concept about the meaning of his statement "I am

enlightened as any buddha". I don't know. Never met him. Don't

know the context within which the comment was made. The Osho guy

also? Meet him? I've heard lot's of stories about him (never heard

of bazza). Some people had fabulous tales to tell (type) of their

experience of him, with him, after him etc. Some heavenly, some

hellish. All interesting. An english composition teacher once said

"write what you know". Authentic voice "sounds" different from

opinion to me. Tell us some of your stories? Drop a story

line?Lynne/join

"Love itself is

the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam"

by Suri Nagamma