Antoine/ Are there secret methods of enlightenment?

[Guest guest]

Welcome back Antoine!

Antoine and the list go way back to the beginning and before.

Antoine used to be and still may be the best Cable Man in Quebec, Canada.

The stories Antoine used to tell us about him going and fixing cables in homes were quite amazing.

I liked the ones where the women would invite Antoine to share strong

Darjeeling Tea with them after he had fixed their Cable.

Antoine we have missed you!

Love,

Harsha

Antoine Carré [antoine.carre (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca] Monday,

May 10, 2004 9:28 PMSubject: Re:

Re: Are there secret methods of enlightenment?

Hello John,

I am hold new, or new old, here,

when you say:

John Logan

I personally have witnessed the effects of "forcing Kundalini Energy"

in the unprepared. The results were devastating and in one case there

was real neurological damage.

I say:

It is always nice to hear and learn from the experience of others.

Would you like to share more on this experience?

Thank you for your time,

Antoine

Makes me think of this Hexagram in the I Ching:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/antoine.carre/iching/i36.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Antoine,

Welcome back, indeed.

 

About Kundalini Energy problems.

The key word is "forcing".

 

I will give a somewhat tangential answer.

Iyengar teaches a form of Hatha Yoga which is often practiced in this

country. However...Iyengar does not teach newcomers; he teaches or

taught YOGA TEACHERS. This is important to understand. He pushes them

and demands much from them. They are after all teachers.

 

The problem arises when the teacher comes back from India and directs

newcomers to yoga with the same pushing approach they received,

because that appears to be the correct way to teach the method. Wrong.

 

Iyengar is a master teacher and reads his students very accurately

and directs them according to their needs and abilities. It was not

made clear to such teachers that they must approach their students,

gently and with the same sensitivity. One of the results was that

many people were turned away from Yoga practice through abusive

instruction, and in some cases damaged muscles, organs, and with

digestive disorders among other things.

 

What was needed for the teacher, was abusive to the student.

 

Now further description. There was a school of Yoga directed by a

Guru from India who assumed that his students were like his students

in his ashram in India. He found some of the students had the ability

to open centers in the US and propagate his teaching and methods. The

students in the US were NOT the same as the students in India because

in India the ashram is a closed system and the teacher/guru has

physical and psychic control over his students and so can "handle"

problems as they arise. In the US two things tend to occur:

1) Americans tend to be independent and will challenge authority.

2) Americans tend to be "instant result" consciousness.

 

The ideas is that if a little bit is good, a whole lot is better! Not

true in the case of Yoga and especially with respect to Kundalini

Energy processes. The new leaders of this particular school trusted

the guru's direction, did not take these characteristics into

account, and followed the book (as it were). The results were not

good.

 

Some families were broken up because husbands and wives were

forbidden to have sex. It was not explained why, nor what the purpose

wss, and that celibacy was temporary. Needless to say, this caused

problems. The leaders had not been thoroughly trained themselves and

the American mindset had not been taken into account. The new leaders

became very authoritarian and arrogant and made demands which

affected the students physcally with respect to diet, and wake/sleep

cycles. Further in the practice of KE Yoga exercises the students

were not properly conditioned and the exercises for pushing Kundaline

Energy were given prematurely. The result was neurological problems,

including manic-depressive behavior, digestive disorders, a variety

of stress problems, including sexual dysfunction. Some of the

students even attacked each other.

 

When this situation came to the attention of the guru of the 'order',

who was traveling around a lot, he took charge and straightened out

the problems and practices in the centers affected, and the problems

went away within a few months.

 

The point is not that KE processes are dangerous; they are not when

practiced properly. What happened in these groups was the equivalent

of giving a loaded gun to a four year old child and told to go out

and play.

 

A further point is the story of a young man who became enamoured of

yoga and decided to instantly cut off sexual activity in a long term

relationship which had had a lot of such activity. Further he decided

without understanding nutritional concerns that he would become Vegan

after having been a heavy meat eater, and after a few weeks decided

to become fruitarian (eating only fruit). And he decided that if a

little bit of yoga was good, eight hours a day would be better! The

result was his body collapsed and neurological studies in a local

research hospital setting determined that he had literally burned the

myelin sheath in his central nervious system. It took him seven years

to fully recover. His musculature would not hold the vertabrae in his

spine so that he could stand erect. It took almost four years of

physical therapy of the osteopathic sort to help him maintain until

his body finally began to take over. Needless to say there were

changes in his diet, and all yoga practice was stopped.

 

A local psychaitrist became a devotee of Sai Baba and tried to

practice Kundalini Yoga with his mental patients until it became

apparent that he had an abnormal number of suicides among those

patients.

 

Another problem is the failure on the part of the student that these

processes have real effects, there is real power and energy involved

and it will cause changes. I witnessed two professional people,

husband and wife, who were put in simple tantra circuit, felt the

power quicken, and it blew them away, despite the fact that they were

treated to a very mild experience. They literally ran away from the

process and the training.

 

These stories are extreme, admittedly, but they happened.

And the cause was "forcing" the exercise, stressing the body,

emotions and mind as a result.

The cause was improperly trained "leaders" or teachers.

The cause was impatient students who overdid it.

The cause was improper or ineffective shepherding by a mature teacher.

 

For instance, one doesn't give the Lion Posture to a person who has

never practiced yoga at all and insist that they do it a number of

time, or for a long period of time.

 

I hope that this is enough to indicate the potential for very real

problems.

 

John L.

 

 

, "Harsha" wrote:

> Welcome back Antoine!

>

> Antoine and the list go way back to the beginning and before.

>

> Antoine used to be and still may be the best Cable Man in Quebec,

Canada.

>

> The stories Antoine used to tell us about him going and fixing

cables in

> homes were quite amazing.

>

> I liked the ones where the women would invite Antoine to share

strong

> Darjeeling Tea with them after he had fixed their Cable.

>

> Antoine we have missed you!

>

> Love,

> Harsha

>

>

> _____

>

> Antoine Carré [antoine.carre@s...]

> Monday, May 10, 2004 9:28 PM

>

> Re: Re: Are there secret methods of

enlightenment?

>

>

> Hello John,

>

> I am hold new, or new old, here,

>

> when you say:

>

> John Logan <johnrloganis>

> I personally have witnessed the effects of "forcing Kundalini

Energy"

> in the unprepared. The results were devastating and in one case

there

> was real neurological damage.

>

> I say:

> It is always nice to hear and learn from the experience of others.

Would you

> like to share more on this experience?

>

> Thank you for your time,

>

> Antoine

>

> Makes me think of this Hexagram in the I Ching:

> http://www3.sympatico.ca/antoine.carre/iching/i36.htm

[Guest guest]

Harsha,

 

It's nice to be back,

 

I work for Sony Canada engineering department now. Trying to make

believe to the robo-dog, Aibo, that he, she or it is enlightened.

 

http://www.robotbooks.com/Sony-robot-dog.htm

 

Stories are different when its people who come to you instead of you

going to them, mostly when they come with things (Sony means Thing)

to fix. How many times a day I would love to say: it's not the thing

that needs fixing but your attachment to the thing that needs fixing.

 

Not easy to be a <<Guru>> at a Sony counter, it must be why I love

my new Job more and more every day.

 

Sorry for the delay in answering, I only saw your response with John

post. The original one did not come in my mailbox.

 

May each breath be as fresh as the air over a field of flower when

the sun rises in the morning.

 

Antoine

 

, "Harsha" wrote:

> Welcome back Antoine!

>

> Antoine and the list go way back to the beginning and before.

>

> Antoine used to be and still may be the best Cable Man in Quebec,

Canada.

>

> The stories Antoine used to tell us about him going and fixing

cables in

> homes were quite amazing.

>

> I liked the ones where the women would invite Antoine to share

strong

> Darjeeling Tea with them after he had fixed their Cable.

>

> Antoine we have missed you!

>

> Love,

> Harsha

[Guest guest]

Hello John,

Thank you for your tangential answer. It does touch a point on the

curve of a normal path in life. Depending of the gradient of the

curve at the point where the tangent touches, the effects can be

dramatic or not.

I don't know if there can be any basic approach on that problem that

ranges from the slightest change of emotion all the way to

spontaneous combustion. "Forcing" things is not necessarily the key

word of Kundalini Energy problems. On may force all he wants and

nothing will never change for him or her. The "gradient" of his or

her curve in life at the moment the exercise is forced will simply

not change anything. Yet for someone else, on a different path, the

slightest little breeze may propels him or her in a completely

different world.

But I believe I understand what you say, and thank you for saying it.

Antoine

http://www3.sympatico.ca/antoine.carre/iching/i25.htm

***************

Hi Antoine,Welcome back, indeed.About Kundalini Energy problems.The

key word is "forcing".I will give a somewhat tangential

answer.Iyengar teaches a form of Hatha Yoga which is often practiced

in this country. However...Iyengar does not teach newcomers; he

teaches or taught YOGA TEACHERS. This is important to understand. He

pushes them and demands much from them. They are after all

teachers.The problem arises when the teacher comes back from India

and directs newcomers to yoga with the same pushing approach they

received, because that appears to be the correct way to teach the

method. Wrong.

(...)

For instance, one doesn't give the Lion Posture to a person who has

never practiced yoga at all and insist that they do it a number of

time, or for a long period of time.I hope that this is enough to

indicate the potential for very real problems.John L.*******

[Guest guest]

Hello Antoine,

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

You asked and I did not respond with tangents but with actual cases

which occured in my presence. In several cases the effects were not

in individuals but in a number of people subjected to the same

forcing techniques - with corresponding emotional, mental and

digestive disturbances. Further these were not the only cases I could

have cited.

 

I hope you also understood that with proper care that KE practices

are reasonably safe. However, pushed to excess can and does cause

problems.

 

If you wish to explain these problems away, that is up to you.

Problems will continue to occur tangential or not if KE practices are

abused, pushed to excessive extremes, and improperly shepherded.

 

Namaste,

John L.

 

, Antoine Carré

<antoine.carre@s...> wrote:

> Hello John,

>

> Thank you for your tangential answer. It does touch a point on the

curve of a normal path in life. Depending of the gradient of the

curve at the point where the tangent touches, the effects can be

dramatic or not.

>

> I don't know if there can be any basic approach on that problem

that ranges from the slightest change of emotion all the way to

spontaneous combustion. "Forcing" things is not necessarily the key

word of Kundalini Energy problems. On may force all he wants and

nothing will never change for him or her. The "gradient" of his or

her curve in life at the moment the exercise is forced will simply

not change anything. Yet for someone else, on a different path, the

slightest little breeze may propels him or her in a completely

different world.

>

> But I believe I understand what you say, and thank you for saying

it.

>

> Antoine

> http://www3.sympatico.ca/antoine.carre/iching/i25.htm

>

> ***************

> Hi Antoine,

> Welcome back, indeed.

>

> About Kundalini Energy problems.

> The key word is "forcing".

>

> I will give a somewhat tangential answer.

> Iyengar teaches a form of Hatha Yoga which is often practiced in

this

> country. However...Iyengar does not teach newcomers; he teaches or

> taught YOGA TEACHERS. This is important to understand. He pushes

them

> and demands much from them. They are after all teachers.

>

> The problem arises when the teacher comes back from India and

directs

> newcomers to yoga with the same pushing approach they received,

> because that appears to be the correct way to teach the method.

Wrong.

>

> (...)

>

> For instance, one doesn't give the Lion Posture to a person who has

> never practiced yoga at all and insist that they do it a number of

> time, or for a long period of time.

>

> I hope that this is enough to indicate the potential for very real

> problems.

>

> John L.

>

> *******