Guest guest Posted September 3, 2004 Report Share Posted September 3, 2004 having no wealth except a huge overdraft, i am willing to take you up on your offer and "take that plunge" lol yosy ps. dear bob, i'm sure you are well versed in the teachings - it is evident... but your joking statement "all are one, but some are more so then others" is really a common attitude among the "knowers" and can be, if not on guard, a symptom of unperceived spiritual arrogance sneaking upon us - the subtle, "spiritual" ego is extremely clever (though i am pretty sure this is not true in your case ) increase of openness to true knowledge is marked by increase in humility and compassion towards ALL.. i apologize if my remark offended you in any way. ZEN2WRK [ZEN2WRK] Friday, September 03, 2004 7:53 AM yosyflug Re: Re: Fw: [dzogchen] Withou... In a message dated 9/1/2004 8:41:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time, yosyflug writes: may i be permited to respectfully disagree with the above statement, dear zenbob... there is only the "one" - referred to as such not as opposed to 'many' but to express the inexpressible absolute unity of all creation and beyond. there is no "second". it is only in it's manifestation that the supposed "two", the pairs of opposites, appear. any apparent individual existence is merely an illusion superimposed on what is was and will be. all "we", whatever 'we' may be is this 'one'. there is none but this. no more nor less. Yosy: I am deeply schooled in Dzogchen and non-duality and the underlying sublime philosophy of oneness does not illude me. However, in the expression of this oneness, we (the separate parts of the oneness who choose to differentiate as separate conscious entities) often forget that choices matter in life, and that there is a difference when I hold the needle that sticks your skin and when you hold the needle that sticks my skin. I feel my pain, and you feel your pain, and inasmuch as what our respective brains signal to us be a sort of "illusion" it is a very real discomfort and one which either of our bodies will seek mightily to avoid. Do not debate this "point" with me...it has been exhusted on other lists to the finest degree, and all of our absolute state of oneness does not mitigate against each individual's sense of their own loss, pain, suffering, joy, happiness, revenue increases/decreases, aging, ecstasy, etc. As I joke with many who profess an absolute certainty of the non-duality issue, "Fine, let us then be one...let's divide up all of our illusory wealth equally and share" No one is willing to take that plunge for some reaosn, even though we are all "one." LOL Peace, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 In a message dated 9/3/2004 3:32:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, yosyflug writes: but your joking statement "all are one, but some are more so then others" is really a common attitude among the "knowers" and can be, if not on guard, a symptom of unperceived spiritual arrogance sneaking upon us - the subtle, "spiritual" ego is extremely clever (though i am pretty sure this is not true in your case ) increase of openness to true knowledge is marked by increase in humility and compassion towards ALL.. i apologize if my remark offended you in any way. Absolutely correct, Yosy...that is a good reminder to us all, but it underscores the very nature that even as "we are all one" at one level, we are all clearly individuals on another level, hence we can make these "evaluative comparisons of relative knowledge, expereience, sincerity and (may favorite!) attainment." You see, once any of us move down that thread toward the needle, the point faces all directions, and either we embrace the entire fabric...and cease using personal terms or evaluations, of others as well as ourselves, or we back away from that view and accept that although "one" we are "many into one" or E Pluribus Unum" which of course is the very essence of the American philosophy...and it's on the money, too... And speaking of which... Whilst comparing accounts and striving now to prove who or whom has the greatest debt, I recall that I am still paying off the loans on this ranch, have older medical bills that are in the many thousands, and a late model Volvo sedan that still has a balance owing. The cruel truth is that in western society, apparent wealth is often only leveraged debt, so the richer a person appears the poorer they actually are, making the poorest person, who has no possessions and no debt, truly the freest and richest among us...thereby fulfilling the scriptures of all the sages... The first shall be last, the last first, and the poor shall be the blessed... THen again, having been both very poor and having had a little material means... a little material means is preferable, so long as one does not become a slave to it. Peace, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 zen2wrk [zen2wrk] Saturday, September 04, 2004 8:00 PM Re: Re: Fw: [dzogchen] Withou... In a message dated 9/3/2004 3:32:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, yosyflug writes: but your joking statement "all are one, but some are more so then others" is really a common attitude among the "knowers" and can be, if not on guard, a symptom of unperceived spiritual arrogance sneaking upon us - the subtle, "spiritual" ego is extremely clever (though i am pretty sure this is not true in your case ) increase of openness to true knowledge is marked by increase in humility and compassion towards ALL.. i apologize if my remark offended you in any way. Absolutely correct, Yosy...that is a good reminder to us all, but it underscores the very nature that even as "we are all one" at one level, we are all clearly individuals on another level, hence we can make these "evaluative comparisons of relative knowledge, expereience, sincerity and (may favorite!) attainment." You see, once any of us move down that thread toward the needle, the point faces all directions, and either we embrace the entire fabric...and cease using personal terms or evaluations, of others as well as ourselves, or we back away from that view and accept that although "one" we are "many into one" or E Pluribus Unum" which of course is the very essence of the American philosophy...and it's on the money, too... And speaking of which... Whilst comparing accounts and striving now to prove who or whom has the greatest debt, I recall that I am still paying off the loans on this ranch, have older medical bills that are in the many thousands, and a late model Volvo sedan that still has a balance owing. The cruel truth is that in western society, apparent wealth is often only leveraged debt, so the richer a person appears the poorer they actually are, making the poorest person, who has no possessions and no debt, truly the freest and richest among us...thereby fulfilling the scriptures of all the sages... The first shall be last, the last first, and the poor shall be the blessed... THen again, having been both very poor and having had a little material means... a little material means is preferable, so long as one does not become a slave to it. Peace, Zenbob ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ) the hebrew sages state: "who is rich? the one happy with his lot". it is not the one who has or has not material possesions - it is the truly free, the independent one, for whom they did not matter at all. yosy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 In a message dated 9/4/2004 5:19:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, yosyflug writes: ) the hebrew sages state: "who is rich? the one happy with his lot". it is not the one who has or has not material possesions - it is the truly free, the independent one, for whom they did not matter at all. yosy Indeedee-do. That is always the secret...a blade of grass can suffice to delight one... And sometimes just being able to take in a breath of fresh air without effort or pain... Is joy in itself. This introduces another interesting thread.... Is the absense of all sensation and thought actually the trigger point for bliss or does something else have to happen? Peace zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Dear friends in Sangha this kind of "dialogue" is wonderful thanks so much.... Dear ZenBob your question below is pointing the finger to the moon................ its again what makes me tick...... its it S U R R E N D E R giving up completely loosing the sense of being the "Doer" being "responsible" and out of all this questions loosing the feeling of guilt inferiority and so on but for surrender in my opinion we need to be LOVE as a precondition for real surrender without cheating....... and learning to LOVE menas learning to accept us as we are moment to moment i am not able to write in such a concise precise way like you do sorry i hope i made my point clear again.... in deep appreciation whats going on now in our sangha in GD i trust michael >zen2wrk To: > Re: >Re: Fw: [dzogchen] Withou... Sun, 5 Sep 2004 >04:41:18 EDT > > > > >In a message dated 9/4/2004 5:19:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >yosyflug writes: > >) the hebrew sages state: "who is rich? the one happy with his lot". it >is not the one who has or has not material possesions - it is the truly >free, the independent one, for whom they did not matter at all. > >yosy > > > >Indeedee-do. That is always the secret...a blade of grass can suffice to >delight one... And sometimes just being able to take in a breath of fresh >air without effort or pain... Is joy in itself. > > This introduces another interesting thread.... > >Is the absense of all sensation and thought actually the trigger point for >bliss or does something else have to happen? > >Peace > >zenbob > > > > > > _______________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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