Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 In a message dated 9/4/2004 6:03:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, aoclery writes: This seems to me a reference to karma. One doesn't become realised until one is destined to be. The fruit drops when it is ripe and not before. For a thought that is projected into individuality ceases to exist when the sense of individuality is dropped. So Grace seems to be Karma playing like the sun behind the clouds..Always there, no time, not freewill, only the will of 'God', together with attitude and response to a situation.....ONS...Tony. No, no! Grace is not a Karmic attribute Tony! In fact, Grace is the integral sidestep or leapfrog out of Karma or Karmic cycles and Dharma. Only through grace can higher or more profound states of lasting change be accomplished without the tedious work of Karmic drudgery. This is exactly why I fear that you do not comprehend Christianity at its very essence. And, having said this, Grace is essential to all mystical paths of true enlilghtenment. Peace, Love, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 In a message dated 9/4/2004 6:17:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, johnrloganis writes: Grace is not karma. It is more like "when the conditions are right". There is no more destiny in this than there is in the seed sprouting when the earth, the sun, the rain, the temperature and the nutrients are in the right balance. Nothing the seed has done in its "past lives" contributes to its sprouting. Exactly! Thanks, John... Love, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 In a message dated 9/4/2004 7:25:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wim_borsboom writes: What you are introducing here is very close to a Calvinistic way of looking at salvation... not realization. Wim Yes, that is very astute perception...and at the heart of the nature of authentic spiritual enlightenment. Thanks, Love Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 In a message dated 9/4/2004 7:41:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, michael_bindel writes: WE HAVE TO SURRENDER COMPLETELY to be an "instrument" of the ALMIGHTY i hope i was able to let you know how "i" feel about these themes which are of great importance for yours michael Yes, also very profoundly on the center of the target. Without surrender, without the state of non-effort, Grace remains out of reach. Foregoing the will and accepting love in absolute fullness is the only conduit for Grace to fill the spirit. We would all be incredibly less, so mechanically driven without this special and life changing connection with the ALL. Love, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Dear Michael, You wrote: > as long as we are still bound to > beliefsystems of any kind (snip) > we seed and experience karma To return to reality, it is indeed of utmost importance to give up all beliefs, which is actually not too hard, really! :-) as beliefs are not supported by any convincing reasoning and especially not by any evidence. (If they were, they would not be beliefs, right ?!!!) Also, beliefs are - by definition almost - always pushed on us from the outside and usually under duress. Once we see that clearly... they will just fall by the wayside. Returning to reality though, it is just as important but way harder, to also give up the opinions we seem to be so sure of. They are so difficult to let go of, no doubt due to the large doses of false pride invested in them, even... even when we know (or maybe because we know) that our opinions are be based on incomplete reasoning. The more we "dare" to live in love... unconditionally, the more and easier beliefs and opinions fall away... Of course that is so because in unconditional love there is no need to be fearful, harsh or judgemental. Living and loving unconditionally is really not as hard as one "thinks", just give up the thoughts that provide the reasons and excuses for it being so hard and... there you have it! Wim , "MICHAEL BINDEL" <michael_bindel@h...> wrote: > Dear Wim and all others > > GRACE KARMA > > > as far as "ifeel" it > > > WHEN COMPLETE SURRENDERING HAPPENS OF COURSE WITHOUT ANY EXPECTATIONS AS IT > HAS TO HAPPEN WHEN L O V E FOR THE ONE AND ONLY IS COMPLETE THAN WE > ARE ABSORBED BY GRACE AND KARMA WORKS ONLY ON THE BODY ENTITY LIKE BELOVED > RAMANA STATED > > as long as we are still bound to beliefsystems of any kind (GD judges we > have to be punished to be worrth) we seed and experience karma > > WE HAVE TO SURRENDER COMPLETELY to be an "instrument" of the ALMIGHTY > > i hope i was able to let you know how "i" feel about these themes which are > of great importance for yours > > > michael > > > in GD i trust > > > >"Wim" <wim_borsboom> > > > > > > Re: The Nature of Self- Realization > >Sun, 05 Sep 2004 02:24:25 -0000 > > > >Tony wrote: > > > This seems to me a reference to karma. > > > One doesn't become realised > > > until one is destined to be. > > > >Realization of course can not be something that karmically happens. > >Realization is outside the illussive realm of 'realistically > >appearing' karmic events. In 'r e a l i t y' realization has no > >reference points to karma... In moksha one realizes to be free > >already, one sees and realizes that realization is not at all > >dependent on karmic dynamics... In a way you pointed at that not too > >long ago: it (karma) actually has not happened and is not happening. > >Stopping the wheel of karmic events and dynamics - realizing that in > >reality it actually didn't and does not take place - is what entails > >realization. It wouldn't be moksha if it were conditional upon karmic > >destination as you seem to say, it would be 'conditional freedom' > >or 'conditional liberation' and therefore it can not be moksha at > >all... > > > >One realizingly discovers or recovers this in grace... but again one > >realizes that also grace is NOT bound to karma. How could it be grace > >if it were?... > > > > > So Grace seems to be Karma playing like the sun behind the > > > clouds.. > > > >What you are introducing here is very close to a Calvinistic way of > >looking at salvation... not realization. > > > >Wim > > > > _______________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Dear Wim giving up all beliefs you state is actually not so hard, really :-) ::::::--------))))))))))))))))))) if we managed it - like always - its EASY and we do not understand why we did stick to it before but as soon as something happens that touches you makes you afraid we are lost again and suffer till we awake again thats normal and "terrible" is it not so????? regarding OPINIONS the same as stated above The more we "dare" to live in love... unconditionally, the more and >easier beliefs and opinions fall away... Of course that is so because >in unconditional love there is no need to be fearful, harsh or >judgemental. > >Living and loving unconditionally is really not as hard as >one "thinks", just give up the thoughts that provide the reasons and >excuses for it being so hard and... there you have it! Dearest Wim what you wrote above IS IT FOR ME FULLPOINT with all my "intelligencemind" "heart" with everything i am this is it fullpoint Wonderful unknown Wim the way you wrote about beliefsystems opinions and the conclusion for yourself is just WONDERFUL TOUCHING TRUE and it is the foundation of everydaylife for michael if i cannot live accordingly it makes me unhappy so being centred is the only way out of this turmoil of "normal life" thank you for being so helpful and cooperative thanks to Harsha for moderating thanks for all who are ready to participate openly thanks to GRACE we experience this in GD i trust michael >"Wim" <wim_borsboom > > > Re: The Nature of Self-Realization >Sun, 05 Sep 2004 06:32:02 -0000 > >Dear Michael, > >You wrote: > > as long as we are still bound to > > beliefsystems of any kind (snip) > > we seed and experience karma > >To return to reality, it is indeed of utmost importance to give up >all beliefs, which is actually not too hard, really! :-) as beliefs >are not supported by any convincing reasoning and especially not by >any evidence. (If they were, they would not be beliefs, right ?!!!) >Also, beliefs are - by definition almost - always pushed on us from >the outside and usually under duress. Once we see that clearly... >they will just fall by the wayside. > >Returning to reality though, it is just as important but way harder, >to also give up the opinions we seem to be so sure of. They are so >difficult to let go of, no doubt due to the large doses of false >pride invested in them, even... even when we know (or maybe because >we know) that our opinions are be based on incomplete reasoning. > >The more we "dare" to live in love... unconditionally, the more and >easier beliefs and opinions fall away... Of course that is so because >in unconditional love there is no need to be fearful, harsh or >judgemental. > >Living and loving unconditionally is really not as hard as >one "thinks", just give up the thoughts that provide the reasons and >excuses for it being so hard and... there you have it! > >Wim > _______________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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