Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 , "John Logan" <johnrloganis> wrote: > Grace is not karma. > It is more like "when the conditions are right". > There is no more destiny in this than there is in the seed sprouting > when the earth, the sun, the rain, the temperature and the nutrients > are in the right balance. Nothing the seed has done in its "past > lives" contributes to its sprouting. > > Thank you. > Namaste, We may be hung up on semantics and interpretation here. First of all I don't believe that ultimately 'Grace' in any form exists at all. For Grace is Sakti and therefore Saguna. There being only Nirguna Brahman, even that/Saguana is illusion. However having said that, the world is real whilst one is in it according to Sankara. So let us posit the existence of Saguna and the validity of Grace and Karma. I believe it is a given that a certain amount of work or Sadhana is necessary to purify the sheaths of their samskaras, and tendencies etc. This is an act of effort and therefore is action and therefore is karma, which means action in sankrit. Before one can even practise Who am I? and Self Enquiry one has to have a certain amount of mental maturity and purification. If one had only to give up the idea of being a person by saying so, the world would not be in illusion........It takes Sadhana not intellectualisation. Therefore again as there is not time and the dream actually all happens at once there can only be predetermination and no freewill in the life being lived. Therefore Moksha is predetermined also, as is the Sadhana required to arrive at that state of no mind. Of course we will awake to find nothing has happened at all, but in the meantime of relativity, there is work/sadhana/karma and a result/karma--------purified Buddhi and Moksha and not before. Grace is the Ground of Saguna, and is always there constant but our impure sheaths prevent its manifestation in this illusion. The only action or interference of Sakti, besides Avatars, and that is another debate, is that when the Buddhi is purified and all that is left is the 'I' feeling the Saguna subsumes its own creation the 'I' and Moksha is there as it always was.....So this is why I say Grace and Karma are the same for they are both as illusionary....................ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Sorry, we are going to have to agree to disagree. It appears that there really is a Calvinist thrust to your view of Advaita Vedanta. There is one too many have-tos in your definitions, assuming as the lawyers say, facts not in evidence. Grace operates exactly when we don't deserve it. Karma is operating when we do deserve it, for well or ill. One may have worked very hard in preparation for the action of Grace with little or no result; one may have simply altered their perspectives and is then receptive for the action we "call" Grace. Grace is like the sun, shining all the time. One goes out of doors and may receive a tan, or there may be clouds in the sky blocking the sun and no tan. It is not one's karma to get a tan or not, it is only conditions which make it possible. In Shin Buddhism the existence of the Myokonin is testimony to simple faith without any concommitent yogic practice which yet leads to full self-reallzation and identity with Amida (syn. with Brahma). Often they are illiterate and uneducated, but they walk the walk without the talk. One may have all the words, all the meanings and all the logic in place and yet never get it. Now that is karma. The Grace is present but one is actively blocking it with intellectualism in that case. (I am not saying that that is your condition; I am citing an example of a karmic consideration in this area of discourse.) Karma is a causal relationship as experienced; Grace is an uncaused relationship. Bright blessings, John L. , "Tony OClery" <aoclery> wrote: > , "John Logan" > <johnrloganis> wrote: > > Grace is not karma. > > It is more like "when the conditions are right". > > There is no more destiny in this than there is in the seed > sprouting > > when the earth, the sun, the rain, the temperature and the > nutrients > > are in the right balance. Nothing the seed has done in its "past > > lives" contributes to its sprouting. > > > > Thank you. > > > Namaste, > > We may be hung up on semantics and interpretation here. > > First of all I don't believe that ultimately 'Grace' in any form > exists at all. For Grace is Sakti and therefore Saguna. There being > only Nirguna Brahman, even that/Saguana is illusion. > > However having said that, the world is real whilst one is in it > according to Sankara. So let us posit the existence of Saguna and > the validity of Grace and Karma. > > I believe it is a given that a certain amount of work or Sadhana is > necessary to purify the sheaths of their samskaras, and tendencies > etc. This is an act of effort and therefore is action and therefore > is karma, which means action in sankrit. Before one can even > practise Who am I? and Self Enquiry one has to have a certain amount > of mental maturity and purification. > > If one had only to give up the idea of being a person by saying so, > the world would not be in illusion........It takes Sadhana not > intellectualisation. > > Therefore again as there is not time and the dream actually all > happens at once there can only be predetermination and no freewill > in the life being lived. Therefore Moksha is predetermined also, as > is the Sadhana required to arrive at that state of no mind. > > Of course we will awake to find nothing has happened at all, but in > the meantime of relativity, there is work/sadhana/karma and a > result/karma--------purified Buddhi and Moksha and not before. Grace > is the Ground of Saguna, and is always there constant but our impure > sheaths prevent its manifestation in this illusion. > > The only action or interference of Sakti, besides Avatars, and that > is another debate, is that when the Buddhi is purified and all that > is left is the 'I' feeling the Saguna subsumes its own creation > the 'I' and Moksha is there as it always was.....So this is why I > say Grace and Karma are the same for they are both as > illusionary....................ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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