Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 In a message dated 9/5/2004 1:24:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, aoclery writes: Therefore one is brought to the edge of Moksha by Karma or Grace. Is not Karma Grace in action? I see no diferentiation since it is all a projection of Brahman anyway............ONS...Tony. Again, no, your interpretation is madness. Grace is outside the realm of karma...not a synonym for it. We are talking about concepts of actual reality here, not mere words and phrases as if the describe the workings of an engine. Karma is just karma in action. LOL There is nothing at all related to Grace in the mechanisms of Karma. Grace allows one to transcend the mechanism of Karma...even if but momentarily. Has never a child ever done a kindness to you or given you a flower or a small beautiful gift? If so, did you not feel the faint stirrings of grace within that rarely used instrument of yours, the heart? It is through the unpredictable and law-breaking exception of Grace that the Divine peels away our layers of resistance and elevates above that which we are. A glimse of what it is like to be Divine renders us humble, not proud. Peace, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 Dearest ZenBob thank you for this mail - it is like it would be taken "out of my heart" i agree completely besides this mail thank you for your effort work to put all this in words what you feel in deep respect in GD i trust michael >zen2wrk To: > Re: >Grace and Ramana's definition. Mon, 6 Sep 2004 06:15:49 EDT > > > > >In a message dated 9/5/2004 1:24:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >aoclery writes: > >Therefore one is brought to the edge of Moksha by Karma or Grace. Is not >Karma Grace in action? I see no diferentiation since it is all a >projection of Brahman anyway............ONS...Tony. > > > >Again, no, your interpretation is madness. Grace is outside the realm of >karma...not a synonym for it. > >We are talking about concepts of actual reality here, not mere words and >phrases as if the describe the workings of an engine. > >Karma is just karma in action. LOL > >There is nothing at all related to Grace in the mechanisms of Karma. > >Grace allows one to transcend the mechanism of Karma...even if but >momentarily. > >Has never a child ever done a kindness to you or given you a flower or a >small beautiful gift? > >If so, did you not feel the faint stirrings of grace within that rarely >used instrument of yours, the heart? > >It is through the unpredictable and law-breaking exception of Grace that >the Divine peels away our layers of resistance and elevates above that >which we are. A glimse of what it is like to be Divine renders us humble, >not proud. > > >Peace, > >Zenbob > > > > > > _______________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 , zen2wrk@a... wrote: > > > > In a message dated 9/5/2004 1:24:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > aoclery writes: > > Therefore one is brought to the edge of Moksha by Karma or Grace. Is > not Karma Grace in action? I see no diferentiation since it is all a > projection of Brahman anyway............ONS...Tony. > > > > Again, no, your interpretation is madness. Grace is outside the realm of > karma...not a synonym for it. > > We are talking about concepts of actual reality here, not mere words and > phrases as if the describe the workings of an engine. > > Karma is just karma in action. LOL > > There is nothing at all related to Grace in the mechanisms of Karma. > > Grace allows one to transcend the mechanism of Karma...even if but > momentarily. > > Has never a child ever done a kindness to you or given you a flower or a > small beautiful gift? > > If so, did you not feel the faint stirrings of grace within that rarely used > instrument of yours, the heart? > > It is through the unpredictable and law-breaking exception of Grace that the > Divine peels away our layers of resistance and elevates above that which we > are. A glimse of what it is like to be Divine renders us humble, not proud. > > > Peace, > > Zenbob Namaste, Again I do not believe that Grace or Saguna gives freebees to unpurified buddhis. Yes I stir with a child's present but this is not Grace this is emotionalism, or indulging a 'feeling', another attachment to this plane and construct called body/mind. The Divine peels away layers through the action of karma. The creation in total is like an alarm clock that you wind up and it runs by itself. That is how the universe runs--------action reaction. Sadhana is necessary to rise and realise that all is one and in fact didn't happen at all...........ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 Tony: For your sake, I will dissect each of your comments thoroughly, lovingly and with nothing but grace guiding my comments... In a message dated 9/6/2004 12:58:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, aoclery writes: Again I do not believe that Grace or Saguna gives freebees to unpurified buddhis. Your "belief" is of no consequence in this matter. The manifest examples of millions are enough to render any solitary person's beliefs moot or superfluous. In actual fact, this thing called "Grace" that you so totally miscast and misunderstand does EXACTLY what you seem to be trying to refute. It is not up to you or I to determine any other soul's relative merit or worthiness. Any belief system that deterministically assigns any person or soul to a mechanistic Caste incapable of other than slow ponderous spiritual progress unless they have done such and such, or studied with Sri MustabeenabigWannabeeYogi is a bankrupt view of the universe, the subtle mystery of the Divine and something of a pathetic bit of rule-bound thinking on your part. Grace takes supreme delight in surprise and in granting the eloquent touch of God's Love on those both deserving and those we might hardly imagine deserving in amillion lifetimes. The magical part, tony, is that this lowly soul, undeserving, even not in the act of seeking, once touched, is elevated far above its lowly state, is given spiritual wings to rise above its own petty limitations and in so being filled with the divine Elixir, shares this with others with a humility and purity that many "hard working, yoga practicing gurus cannot match." Yes I stir with a child's present but this is not Grace this is emotionalism, or indulging a 'feeling', another attachment to this plane and construct called body/mind. This is the necessary first tiny steps twoard grace...finding humility and charm in the simplest act of kindness or charity...and this is not "indulging a feeling" this is partaking of the essence of the divine spirit...which is unselfish love...we should all indulge in that, Tony, rather than seek to rise above it with overconfident intellectualism... The Divine peels away layers through the action of karma. The creation in total is like an alarm clock that you wind up and it runs by itself. That is how the universe runs--------action reaction. Are you quoting the Gita here? LOL This is not even scripturally correct from either a Hindu or Christian dogma. This is sort of neo-existentialism colliding with nihilism. Do you think that you wound up the alarm clock of the universe? Do you think it all unfolds like a Calvinistic train down a predetermined track? If so, then you are simply a Calvinist and do not belong on this list, do not belong to any Hindu or modern Christian sect that believe that individuals, though Karmically bound by their ACTIONS, nonetheless have freedom of ACTION. That is the same as freewill, and it cuts a divide right through your deterministic universe. It also is the key to self liberation. Choice. Action. Acting to anticipate the fruits of Karma by planting the seeds of Dharma and Bhakti in advance because some of us can see where things might lead. Might lead. Not must lead. Oh, and action reaction, if you know your physics is bound on the smallest of scales to an underlying nature of pure random chaos...not deterministic Newtonian "action reaction." It only appears that way at the gross surface level, but at a nuclear or sub-atomic level, it is all pure random chaos...which is why the very same rocket may fly right one day, and explode the next. Violent turbulent chaos renders the most sublime and detailed calculations of scientists mere useless enumerations in the face of a non-deterministic universe. And, Tony, Quantum physics and thermodynamics are the major subjects I cut my teeth with, so save yourself an argument in these areas. Your view is hopelessly outdated, and a simple device such as a Tunneling Diode (A quantum device) not only suggests your error of thinking, it proves it to be falacious and even cruel at the same time. Sadhana is necessary to rise and realise that all is one and in fact didn't happen at all...........ONS...Tony. Now, we all are confused? What didn't happen at all? Your rebuttal? Your ideas? Having emotion? Feeling anything? This discussion? My reply? THis Satsangh? This universe? Of course, this universe never happened at all, and you didn't get all confused and wrapped up in a dead end philophy, either. There. Happy? Love, And a big hug, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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