The world cannot be seen in darkness of ignorance or samadhi.

[Guest guest]

YUGAPAT-SRISHTI (INSTANTANEOUS IMAGINED CREATION): Sri Ramana

 

Q. How has srishti (creation) about? Some say it is predestined,

others say it is God's play (lila). What is the truth?

 

A. Various accounts are given in books. But is there creation (a real

transformation within space of any substance)? Only if there is

creation, do we have to explain how it came about. We may not know

about all these theories, but, we certainly know that we exist (are

aware of our existence). Why not know the `I', and then see

if there

is a creation?

 

Q. Evolutionary creation is stated to suit the capacity of beginners,

but for the advanced non-creation is revealed. What is your view?

 

A. There is no dissolution or creation, no one in bondage, nor anyone

pursuing spiritual practices. There is no one desiring liberation, nor

anyone liberated! This is absolute truth. One who is established in

the Self (consciousness) sees by his knowledge of reality

(consciousness).

 

Q. Is not the Self (consciousness, existence, being-ness) the cause of

this world we see around us?

 

A. The Self itself appears as the world of diverse names and forms.

However, the Self does not act as the efficient cause (nimitta karana)

- creating, sustaining and destroying the world appearance.

 

Q. You seem to be an exponent of ajata doctrine (instantaneous

imagined creation)?

 

A. I do not teach only the ajata doctrine. I approve of all schools.

The same truth has to be expressed in different ways to suit the

capacity of the hearer. The ajata doctrine (instant imagined creation)

says `Nothing exists except the one reality. There is no birth, no

death, no projection, or drawing in, no seeker, no bondage, no

liberation. The one unity alone exists.'

 

To such as find it difficult to grasp this truth, and who ask

`How can

we ignore the solid world we see all around us?' – the dream

experience (during sleep at night) is pointed out, and they are told

`All that see depends on the seer. Apart from the seer, there is

no

seeing.' This is called the drishti-srishti-vada – or the

argument

that one first creates (imagines) a world out of one's mind and

sees

what one's mind itself has created (imagined).

 

Some people cannot grasp even this, and they continue to argue in the

following terms: `The dream experience is so short, while the

world

always exists. The dream experience was limited to me. But the world

is felt and seen not only by me, but so many others. We cannot call

such a world non-existent.'

 

When people argue in this way, they can be given the srishti-drishti

theory (evolutionary creation).

 

For example, `God first created such and such a thing, out of

such and

such an element, and then something else was created, and so on.'

That

alone will satisfy this class. Their minds are otherwise not satisfied

and they ask themselves `How can all geography, all maps, all

sciences, stars, planets and the rules governing or relating to them,

and all knowledge be totally untrue?' To such it is best to say

`Yes,

God created all of this, so you see it.'

 

The Vedanta says the cosmos brings the world into view simultaneously

with the seer, and that there is no detailed process of creation. This

is said to be yugapat-srishti (instantaneous imagined creation).

 

It is just like creations in dreams where the experiencer (seer)

springs simultaneously into existence with the objects of experience

(the seen).

 

When this is told, some people are not satisfied, for they are deeply

rooted in objective knowledge (belief in the reality of the world

appearance). They seek to find out how there can be sudden creation.

They argue that an effect must be preceded by a cause. In short, they

desire an explanation for the existence of the world which they see

around them.

 

Then the srutis (scriptures) try to satisfy their curiosity by

theories of evolutionary creation (based upon cause and effect

theories, and the transformation of elements – all of which do not

exist in consciousness). This method with dealing with the subject of

creation is called krama-srishti (gradual evolutionary creation).

 

But the truth seeker can only be content by yugapat-srishti

(instantaneous imagined world appearance).

 

Q. What is the purpose of creation?

 

A. It is to give rise to this question. Investigate the answer to this

question, and finally abide in the supreme or rather the primal source

of all (awareness, consciousness, existence, the Self), the

investigation will resolve itself into a quest for the Self, and it

will cease only after the non-self is sifted away, and the Self

(consciousness) realized in its purity and glory. There may be numbers

of theories of creation. All of them extend outwardly. There will be

no limit to them, because time and space (being imagined) are

(therefore) unlimited. They are however only (imagined) in the mind.

If you see the mind (realize its source), time and space are

transcended, and the Self (consciousness) is realized.

 

Creation is explained scientifically and logically to one's own

satisfaction. But is there any finality about it? Such explanations

are called krama-srishti (gradual evolutionary creation).

 

On the other hand, drishti-srishti (simultaneous imagined creation) is

really yugapat srishti (instantaneous imagined world appearance)

whereby the subject and objects appear at the same time.

 

Without the seer, there are no objects seen. Find the seer, and all of

creation is comprised in him. Why look outward and go on explaining

the phenomenon (objects in the imagined world appearance) which are

endless.

 

Q. I form part of the creation, and so remain dependent (in bondage).

I cannot solve the riddle of creation until I become independent

(free). Yet I ask, should you not answer the question for me?

 

A. Again, where are you now, that you ask this question? Are you in

the world, or is the world within you? You must admit that the world

is not perceived in your sleep, although you cannot deny your

existence then. The world appears when you wake up. So where is it?

Clearly, the world is your thought, thoughts are your projections. The

`I' is first created, and then the world. The world is

created by the

`I' which in turn rises from the Self (consciousness). The

riddle of

the creation of the world is thus solved if you solve the creation of

`I'. So I say, find your self (consciousness).

 

Again, does the world come and ask you `Why do I exist, how was I

created?' It is you who ask the question. The questioner must

establish the relationship between the world and himself. He must

admit that the world is his imagination. Who imagines it? Let him

again find the `I', and then the Self (consciousness). There

is no

creation in the state of realization (of consciousness).

 

When one sees the world (as an independent reality), one does not

realizes one's Self (consciousness). When one realizes one's

Self

(consciousness), the world is not seen (as a reality independent of

the Self – consciousness). So realize your real Self, and realize

that

there has been no creation (only an imagined appearance of a world,

just as in dreams at night).

 

Q. `Consciousness is real. The world (jagat) is illusion' is

the stock

phrase of Sankara, yet others say `The world is real.' Which

is true?

 

A. Both statements are true. They refer to different stages of

development, and are spoken from different points of view. The

aspirant (abhyasi) starts with the definition, what is real exists

always (never changes). Then the world is eliminated as unreal because

it is constantly changing.

 

The seeker ultimately reaches the Self, and realizes the underlying

substratum (consciousness within which the world appears). Then that

which was originally rejected as being unreal, is found to be part of

(and an appearance in) the unity (consciousness). Being absorbed in

the reality (consciousness), the world is also real. There is only

being in Self-realization, and nothing but being (awareness of

awareness).

 

Q. Sri Ramana always says that maya (world illusion) and reality are

the same. How can that be?

 

A. Sankara was criticized for his views on maya (the world illusion)

without being understood. He said that:

 

1. Consciousness alone is real

 

2. The universe is unreal

 

3. The universe is consciousness (since it has no existence

independent of consciousness within which it appears).

 

 

He did not stop at the second, because the third explains the other

two. It signifies that the universe is real if perceived as the Self

(an appearance in consciousness), and unreal if perceived as apart

from the Self. Hence, maya (the world appearance imagined within

consciousness) and reality (consciousness) are one and the same (both

being consciousness alone).

 

Q. So the world is not an illusion?

 

A. At the level of the spiritual seeker, you have got to say that the

world is an illusion. There is no other way. When a man forgets that

he is consciousness, which is real, permanent and omnipresent, and

deludes himself into thinking that he is a body in the universe, which

is filled with transitory bodies and labors under that delusion, you

have go to remind him that the world is unreal, and a delusion.

 

Why? Because his vision, which has forgotten his own Self

(consciousness) is dwelling in the external material universe

(imagined world appearance). He will not turn inwards into

introspection, unless you impress on him that all this external,

material universe is unreal (only an imagined appearance in

consciousness). Once he realizes his own Self, he will know that there

is nothing other than his own Self, and he will come to look upon the

whole universe as how own Self (consciousness). There is no universe

without the Self.

 

So long as a man does not see the Self which is the origin of all, but

looks only upon the external world as real and permanent, you have to

tell him that all this external universe (world appearance) is unreal.

You cannot help it.

 

Take a paper. We only see the script, and nobody notices the paper on

which the script is written. The paper is there, whether the script on

it is there or not. To those who look upon the script as real, you

have to say that it is unreal, an illusion, since it rests upon the

paper. The wise man looks upon both the paper and script as one. So

also with consciousness and the universe.

 

Q. So the world is real when it is experienced as the Self and unreal

when it is seen as separate (names and forms)?

 

A. Just as fire is obscured by smoke, the shining light of

consciousness is obscured by the world appearance. When by

compassionate divine grace the mind becomes clear, the nature of the

world will be known to be not the illusionary forms, but only the

reality (the consciousness within which it appears).

 

Only those people whose minds are devoid of the power of maya (world

illusion, seeing the unreal as real), having given up the knowledge of

the world, and being unattached to it, and having thereby attained the

knowledge of the Self-shining supreme reality (consciousness), can

correctly know the meaning of the statement `The world is

real.' If

one's outlook has been transformed to the nature of real

knowledge,

the world of the five elements, beginning with ether (akasa) will be

real, being the supreme reality, which is the nature of knowledge. The

original state of this empty world, which is bewildering and crowded

with many names and forms, is bliss, which is one.

 

Q. I cannot say it is all clear to me. Is the world that is seen, felt

and sensed by us in so many ways something like a dream, an illusion?

 

A. There is no alternative for you to accept the world as unreal if

you are seeking the truth, and the absolute truth alone.

 

Q. Why so?

 

A. For the simple reason, unless you give up the idea that the world

is real, your mind will always be after it. If you take the appearance

to be real, you will never know the real itself, although it is the

real alone that exists. This point is illustrated by the analogy of

the snake-in-the-rope. You may believe that a piece of rope is a

snake, while you imagine the rope is a snake, you cannot see the rope

as a rope (due to misperception). The non-existent snake becomes real

to you, while the real rope seems wholly non-existent as such.

 

Q. It is easy to accept tentatively that the world is not real, but it

is hard to have the conviction within the heart that it is unreal.

 

A. Even so is your dream world real while you are dreaming. So long as

the dream lasts, everything you see and feel in it is real.

 

Q. Is the world then no better than a dream?

 

A. What is wrong with the sense of reality you have while you are

dreaming? You may be dreaming of something quite impossible, for

instance, having a happy chat with a dead person. Just for a moment,

you may doubt in the dream, saying to yourself `Was he not

dead?', but

somehow your mind reconciles itself to the dream vision, and the

person is as alive for the purposes of the dream.

 

In other words, the dream as a dream, does not permit you to doubt its

reality. It is the same in the waking state, where you are unable to

doubt the reality of the world which you see while awake. How can the

mind which has created the world accept it as unreal? That is the

significance of the comparison made between the world of the waking

state and the dream world. Both are creations of (imagined within) the

mind, and so long as the mind is engrossed in either, it finds itself

unable to deny their reality.

 

It cannot deny the reality of the dream world while it is dreaming,

and it cannot deny the reality of the waking world while it is awake.

If, on the other hand, you draw your hand completely from the world,

and turn it within and abide there, that is, if you always keep awake

to the Self (consciousness) which is the substratum (source) of all

experiences, you will find the world of which you are now aware is

just as unreal as the world in which you lived in your dream (during

sleep at night).

 

Q. We see, feel and sense the world in so many ways. These sensations

are the reactions to the objects seen and felt. They are not mental

creations as in dreams, which differ not only from person to person,

but also with regards to the same person. Is that not enough to prove

the objective reality (physical substantiality) of the world?

 

A. All this talk of inconsistencies in the dream world arises only now

when you are awake. While you are dreaming, the dream was a perfectly

integrated whole. That is to say, if you felt thirsty in a dream, the

dream water quenched your dream thirst. But all this was real and not

illusory (a dream) to you as long as you did not know that the dream

itself was an illusion (a dream). Similarly with the world perceived

while awake. The sensations you now have get coordinated to give you

the impression that the world is real. If, on the other hand, the

world is a self-existent reality (that is what evidentially mean by

its objectivity), what prevents the world from revealing itself to you

in sleep? You do not say you did not exist in your dream.

 

Q. Neither do I deny the world's existence while I am asleep. It

has

been existing all the while. If during my sleep I did not see it,

others who were not sleeping saw it.

 

A. To say that you existed while asleep, was it necessary to call in

the evidence of the others so as to prove it to you? Why do you seek

their evidence now? Those others can tell you of having seen the world

during your sleep only when you yourself are awake. With regards to

your own existence (consciousness), it is different. On waking up, you

say you had a sound sleep, and to that extent you are aware of

yourself in the deepest sleep, whereas you have not the slightest

notion of the world's existence then. Even now, while you are

awake,

is it the world that says `I am real', or is it you?

 

Q. Of course I say it, but I say it of the world.

 

A. Well then, that world, which you say is real, is really mocking at

you for seeking to prove its reality, while you are ignorant of your

own reality. You want somehow or other to maintain that the world is

real.

 

What is the standard of reality? That alone is real which exists by

itself, which reveals itself by itself, and which is eternal and

unchanging. Does the world exist by itself? Was it ever seen without

the aid of the mind? In sleep there is neither mind, nor the world.

When awake, there is mind and there is the world. What does this

invariable concomitance mean?

 

You are familiar with the principles of inductive logic, which are

considered the very basis of scientific investigation. Why do you not

decide this question of the reality of the world in light of those

accepted principles of logic? Of yourself you say `I exist.'

That is,

your existence is not near existence, it is existence of which you are

conscious. Really, existence is identical with consciousness.

 

Q. The world may not be conscious of itself, yet it exists.

 

A. Consciousness is always Self-consciousness. If you are conscious of

anything, you are essentially conscious of yourself. Unself-conscious

existence is a contradiction in terms (an impossibility). It is not

existence at all. It is merely attributed existence, whereas true

existence, the sat, is not an attribute, it is substance itself. It is

the vastu (reality).

 

Reality is therefore known as sat-chit (being-consciousness), and

never merely one to the exclusion of the other. The world neither

exists by itself, nor is it conscious of its existence. How can you

say that such a world is real? And what is the nature of the world? It

is perpetual change, a continuous, interminable flux. A dependent,

unself-conscious ever-changing world cannot be real.

 

Q. Are the names and forms of the world real?

 

A. You won't find them separate from adhishtana (the substratum,

consciousness). When you try to get at a name and form, you will find

reality only (the substratum). Therefore attain the knowledge of that

which is real for all time (consciousness).

 

Q. Why does the waking state look so real?

 

A. We see so much on the cinema screen, but it is not real. Nothing is

real there except the screen. In the same way in the waking state,

there is nothing but adhishtana. Knowledge of the world is knowledge

of the knower of the world (jagrat-prama is the prama of

jagrat-pramata). Both go away in sleep.

 

Q. Why do we so much permanency and constancy in the world?

 

A. It is seen on account of wrong ideas. When someone says that he

took a bath in the same river twice, he is wrong. Because when he

bathed for the second time, the river is not the same second time as

it was when he bathed for the first time. On looking twice at the

brightness of a flame, a man says that he sees the same flame, but

this flame is changing every moment. The waking state is like this.

The stationary appearance is an error or perception.

 

Q. From where did the knower and his misperception come?

 

A. Find out that `I' and all your doubts will be solved. Just

as in a

dream a false knowledge, knower and known rise up, in the waking state

the same process operates. In both states on knowing this

`I', you

know everything and nothing remains to be known. Indeed sleep, knower,

knowledge and known are absent. In the same way, at the same time of

experiencing the real `I', they will not exist. Whatever you

see

happening in the waking state happens only to the knower, and since

the knower (the subject being imagined) is unreal, nothing in fact

ever happens.

 

Q. Is the light which gives the `I' sense identity and

knowledge of

the world ignorance or chit (consciousness)?

 

A. It is only reflected light of chit (consciousness) that makes the

`I' believe itself different from others. This reflected

light of chit

also makes the `I' created (imagine) objects, but for this

reflection

there must be a surface on which the reflection takes place.

 

Q. What is that surface?

 

A. On realization of the Self, you will find that the reflection and

the surface on which it takes place do not actually exist, and that

both of them are one and the same chit (consciousness). There is the

world, which requires location (space) for its existence and light to

make it perceptible. Both rise (are imagined) simultaneously.

Therefore, physical existence and perception depend upon the light of

the mind which is reflected from the Self (consciousness).

 

Just as the cinema picture can be made visible by a reflected light,

and only in darkness, so also the world appearance is only perceptible

by the light of the Self reflected in the darkness of avidya

(ignorance).

 

The world cannot be seen in the utter darkness of ignorance (as in

deep sleep), nor in the utter light of Self (consciousness), as in

Self realization (samadhi).

[Guest guest]

, "David Bozzi"

<david.bozzi@i...> wrote:

>

> If such is true I can kill myself tonight

> and be free of the bondage of the world,

> and or this 'partial' illusionary 'freedom'

> of being an enlightened master in the world now!

>

> Goodbye/Hello

>

> or better yet

>

> Aloha!

Namaste,

 

> >

> > The world cannot be seen in the utter darkness of ignorance (as in

> > deep sleep), nor in the utter light of Self (consciousness), as in

> > Self realization (samadhi).

 

IMO This cannot happen without a purified Buddhi or Vijananamayakos.

So there are samskaras to work through in one way or other of the

yogas. If you kill yourself tonight you will still have the levels of

mind to deal with...It is a body/mind complex is the entity.....ONS..Tony