RE: Aristotle and perfection

[Guest guest]

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Thanks Wim. That is quite a read. I will

pass something on from the RM list that you may be interested in.

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">Wim Borsboom

[wim_borsboom (AT) (DOT) ca]

Friday, December 10, 2004

12:48 AM

[ - Ramana

Guru] Aristotle and perfection

12.0pt">

font-family:"Courier New"">

,

Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

> Hey Harsha,

> I'll look around this evening a bit for an

Aristotle quote that

supports this. Can't think of anything off

the top of my head...

> --Greg

>

> At 04:10 PM 12/9/2004 -0500, Harsha wrote:

> >I am reminded of a story. Has anyone

heard it?

> >Aristotle said that God is Perfect.

> >Therefore whatever God thinks about

> >or focuses on must be Perfect as

well.

> >Certainly the Perfect One will not focus

> >on imperfection. But since there is only

> >One Perfection and That is God, it

follows

> >that God's essential nature must be

> >Self-Abiding or God-Abiding.

> >So God is constantly and continuously

> >only meditating on God, there being nothing

else.

> >I heard that when I was in college and it

> >seemed to me very Advaitic. Is it a true

story

> >about Aristotle. Perhaps Greg Goode would

know.

Hi Harsha

We are talking Greek here... Aristotle! So it

would be good to find

out what word he used for "perfect" and

when we find it we have to

find out if the word he used in his day actually

meant "perfect" the

way we understand it now in common day use.

We can actually start with Jesus, as a saying is

attributed to him

that goes: "Be you therefore perfect as the

father in the *heavens* is

perfect" which comes straight from

Aristotle... so we are on target.

The word that Aristotle and Jesus used for perfect

was 'teleios'.

(Judea was very

Hellenistic in JC's days even Pythagoras was in vogue.)

The word 'teleios' is usually translated as

'perfect' in the sense of

flawless, but that is not totally correct unless

you understand the

word 'perfect' as coming from the Latin

'per-facere' which means the

same in German or Dutch: 'making full' as in

'completing'... and that

is not exactly the same as flawless or without

fault as the English

'perfect' now seems to mean.

That meaning of being 'made full' or 'brought to

an end' is close to

the original meaning of Aristotle's days when it

also did not have the

meaning of flawless or without fault...

'Teleios', stems from 'telos' as in 'teleology'.

'Telos' means goal, mark, target, end.

Perfection then in those days was seen as process,

a cosmic one in

fact (the father in *heavens*), one of completion:

from a beginning to

an end, from alpha to omega, the idea of creation

in process or in

full swing.

When creation is done, brought to end it was

'teleios', 'completed',

not the same as 'perfect' unless one sees

perfection as a dynamic

process that includes trial and error.

It actually means that as we are still in the

process of perfecting.

We currently and according to science consider

that the universe's

evolution is not over yet, we are not finished yet

we are still

perfecting... Yahweh's "It is all Good"

was a bit premature then eh ?!

When Jesus died on the cross he is supposed to

have said, "tetelestai"

meaning "it is done, very much so." I

don't think he meant "Well that

is just perfect..." Actually he meant the

alpha is turning into

omega...

When did that more moral meaning of 'perfect' in

the sense of without

fault, flaw or... "sin" come into use?

If I'm not mistaken I remember from long ago (from

my monastic

philosophy and Greek profs) that 'telos' had to do

with a spiral or a

set of concentric circles around a dot... a target

that was used to

train warriors (martial arts) shooting catapults

or arrows.

Yes, that's right, it's coming back, a target, a

mark...

Missing that mark when shooting an arrow or

manipulating a catapult

was called missing the mark or 'hamartia' in

Greek, a word that in the

time that the gospels were written, started to

mean 'sin' or mortal

flaw: ha-martia, not on-the mark.

Matter, Martia, Mark, Maya ...

By the way pretty near all words that start with

MA have to do with

handling, shaping or measuring by hand. The

Aryan/Sanskrit root "MA"

we find still in the French 'main', the English

manufacture,

manipulate, maintain, measure (meter even) and

yes, in the word maya

which originally meant the world of tangible

measurable phenomena

(matter).

Missing the mark came to mean 'sinful' only in the

time of gospel

writing (after Christ's death). "Not missing

the mark", or "being

perfect" came to mean having "no

flaws" being "all good". No demerit

points for God even as it was "All

Good."

So Aristotle and even Jesus did not have that

understanding of the

word teleios as 'all morally good and perfect',

for them it was a

process that could even include pain or seeming

failure... the way the

Buddha saw Dukkha, transience or impermanence.

So Aristotle's words in your lines:

> >Aristotle said that God is Perfect.

> >Therefore whatever God thinks about

> >or focuses on must be Perfect as

well.

> >Certainly the Perfect One will not focus

> >on imperfection.

have a a different meaning, they have to do with

the dynamics of the

universe, the movement of stars and planets in

circles and spirals,

the idea of creation which can include processes

which can seem 'off

target' (hamartia)... which in the larger picture

may not be off

target at all.

Oh there is so much more to this, I'm actually on

a roll...

Don't read beyond if I already have stretched your

patience... but

there is some neat stuff to follow.

So when thinking about 'perfection' or Aristotle's

'teleios' we have

to keep 'a target' in mind... something like a

circle with a dot

inside or even a circle with a X marking the spot

(an old symbol that

was eventually used for the 'anointed messiah',

CHI RO or XR inside a

big circle or O. This mark in a slightly simpler

form is even found in

the oldest writing found so far in the Indus valley and stands for DHA

quite likely meaning "Divine" and found

in Deus, dieu, Jupiter, Zeus,

Theos, deity.

It is so unbelievably interesting that we now

still use words that

have a history of at least 6000 years... just

consider the following:

Our words THis, THat, THere (Dies, das and da in

German) start with a

TH sound that in Greek is represented by the

capital character

Theta... a... circle with a dot inside!!! Another

one of the oldest

writing symbols in the Indus

valley. Well if "that, this and there"

are not markers to mark the spot then you can

disregard everything

written here. (By the way all this is heavily researched,

sources,

scholars.

All right but back to Aristotle...

Not quite yet...

We have the circle with the dot, but we also have

the spiral:

Another way of writing the Greek TH or theta was

with a symbol that

resembles the root sign but much more fluid and

rounded, it consists

of two small elongated spirals touching at the

base.

(Then there is combination of a spiral and a +

sign it actually stems

from a sign that we even find in Chinese and is

part of the Reiki

symbols as well, to do with the divine healing

power of CHI... bit I

will leave that for another time.)

Anyway keep the idea of a circle with a dot or a

cross inside as well

the spiral in mind when thinking of perfection as

a dynamic zoning in

on target with bona fide deviations as they occur.

Perfection is not a solid state affair.

Interesting that an 'initiate or beginner' in the

mystery religions

from 400 BCE to 400 CE was also called a

"perfect one" or a 'teleios',

someone who eventually - from initiation to the

goal - would be

perfected... as Jesus said "Be therefore

perfect..."

Later because of flawed translations and quite a

bit of malicious

disdain, adherents to mystery religions and

heresies were

characterized as "they call themselves the

perfect one". But that is

not how they saw themselves, they saw themselves

as participating in

that cosmic process of perfection from beginning

to end.

That gets us back to Aristotle again who when he

described the divine

creative cosmic aspects, always pointed to the

heavens (like Jesus "Be

you therefore perfect as the father in heavens is

perfect")

According to Aristotle, there is a perfect God:

p e r f e c t i n g that is,

the prime mover responsible for all moving

objects, which in turn move

other objects... the spirals and circles of the heavenly

bodies... the

idea behind the Buddha's "transience"

according to the doctrine of

"dependent arisings."

So the heavens are not some abstract heavenly

abode of gods but the

heavens of heavenly bodies "en toi

uranois".

Wim

PS Even now Mennonites, Dukhobors, live "The

Perfect Life" the

perfecting one that is...

/join

 

"Love itself is the actual form of God."

Sri Ramana

In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by

Suri Nagamma

[Guest guest]

Sorry about the long read, good thing I don't write too often...

 

Wim

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

Aristotle and Socrates wrote to always remember

whether you are on your way to or from First

Principles. Ramana would say this same thing about

the relationship of mind to the heart or God.

Aristotle said God is the Immoveable Mover, he who

moves the universe but is unmoved by it. So to

Aristotle man through free will can only move towards

God, towards Being or Perfection.

 

But from Ramana, or experience, we know there is no

free will, no doing by man. All a dream.

 

Aristotle is very Eastern in his philosophy from the

perspcetive of free will and classical Western heroism

and ethics. He says in his Ethics "the good is that

to which all things aim. That it is like an archer

shooting an arrow at a target, there is only one way

to hit the good, the center, and an infinite amount of

ways to miss. So evil is not aiming by choice,

towards that ever-elusive intuitive center, the best

thing in you(I paraphrase)."

 

Western heros, seen in old cowboy movies, always

presented this moral dilemma in a dualistic mode, as

in Gary Cooper in High Noon. Perfection was

impossible for man, but he could find the Good, that

point between God and man, through facing his great

fears in the circumstances presented to him,

ultimately facing his own death.

 

Death is the gateway from this moral dilemma and the

eternal. Christ says "take up your cross and follow

me, you must die of this world in order to find

eternal life." Whether Eastern or Western, this is

just another moral dilemma, resolved in centering,

searching for the Good, prayer, concentration or

meditation. This single pointed mind leads to

absorption, or the eternal life, the self-abiding

beingness which is always here.

 

Its beautiful to see all the ways it is presenting

itself.

 

Michael

--- Harsha wrote:

> Thanks Wim. That is quite a read. I will pass

> something on from the RM list

> that you may be interested in.

>

>

>

> _____

>

> Wim Borsboom [wim_borsboom]

> Friday, December 10, 2004 12:48 AM

>

> Aristotle

> and perfection

>

>

>

>

> , Gregory Goode

> <goode@D...> wrote:

> > Hey Harsha,

> > I'll look around this evening a bit for an

> Aristotle quote that

> supports this. Can't think of anything off the top

> of my head...

> > --Greg

> >

> > At 04:10 PM 12/9/2004 -0500, Harsha wrote:

> > >I am reminded of a story. Has anyone heard it?

> > >Aristotle said that God is Perfect.

> > >Therefore whatever God thinks about

> > >or focuses on must be Perfect as well.

> > >Certainly the Perfect One will not focus

> > >on imperfection. But since there is only

> > >One Perfection and That is God, it follows

> > >that God's essential nature must be

> > >Self-Abiding or God-Abiding.

> > >So God is constantly and continuously

> > >only meditating on God, there being nothing else.

> > >I heard that when I was in college and it

> > >seemed to me very Advaitic. Is it a true story

> > >about Aristotle. Perhaps Greg Goode would know.

>

> Hi Harsha

>

> We are talking Greek here... Aristotle! So it would

> be good to find

> out what word he used for "perfect" and when we find

> it we have to

> find out if the word he used in his day actually

> meant "perfect" the

> way we understand it now in common day use.

>

> We can actually start with Jesus, as a saying is

> attributed to him

> that goes: "Be you therefore perfect as the father

> in the *heavens* is

> perfect" which comes straight from Aristotle... so

> we are on target.

> The word that Aristotle and Jesus used for perfect

> was 'teleios'.

> (Judea was very Hellenistic in JC's days even

> Pythagoras was in vogue.)

>

> The word 'teleios' is usually translated as

> 'perfect' in the sense of

> flawless, but that is not totally correct unless you

> understand the

> word 'perfect' as coming from the Latin 'per-facere'

> which means the

> same in German or Dutch: 'making full' as in

> 'completing'... and that

> is not exactly the same as flawless or without fault

> as the English

> 'perfect' now seems to mean.

>

> That meaning of being 'made full' or 'brought to an

> end' is close to

> the original meaning of Aristotle's days when it

> also did not have the

> meaning of flawless or without fault...

> 'Teleios', stems from 'telos' as in 'teleology'.

> 'Telos' means goal, mark, target, end.

> Perfection then in those days was seen as process, a

> cosmic one in

> fact (the father in *heavens*), one of completion:

> from a beginning to

> an end, from alpha to omega, the idea of creation in

> process or in

> full swing.

>

> When creation is done, brought to end it was

> 'teleios', 'completed',

> not the same as 'perfect' unless one sees perfection

> as a dynamic

> process that includes trial and error.

>

> It actually means that as we are still in the

> process of perfecting.

> We currently and according to science consider that

> the universe's

> evolution is not over yet, we are not finished yet

> we are still

> perfecting... Yahweh's "It is all Good" was a bit

> premature then eh ?!

>

> When Jesus died on the cross he is supposed to have

> said, "tetelestai"

> meaning "it is done, very much so." I don't think he

> meant "Well that

> is just perfect..." Actually he meant the alpha

> is turning into

> omega...

>

> When did that more moral meaning of 'perfect' in the

> sense of without

> fault, flaw or... "sin" come into use?

>

> If I'm not mistaken I remember from long ago (from

> my monastic

> philosophy and Greek profs) that 'telos' had to do

> with a spiral or a

> set of concentric circles around a dot... a target

> that was used to

> train warriors (martial arts) shooting catapults or

> arrows.

>

> Yes, that's right, it's coming back, a target, a

> mark...

> Missing that mark when shooting an arrow or

> manipulating a catapult

> was called missing the mark or 'hamartia' in Greek,

> a word that in the

> time that the gospels were written, started to mean

> 'sin' or mortal

> flaw: ha-martia, not on-the mark.

>

> Matter, Martia, Mark, Maya ...

> By the way pretty near all words that start with MA

> have to do with

> handling, shaping or measuring by hand. The

> Aryan/Sanskrit root "MA"

> we find still in the French 'main', the English

> manufacture,

> manipulate, maintain, measure (meter even) and yes,

> in the word maya

> which originally meant the world of tangible

> measurable phenomena

> (matter).

>

> Missing the mark came to mean 'sinful' only in the

> time of gospel

> writing (after Christ's death). "Not missing the

> mark", or "being

> perfect" came to mean having "no flaws" being "all

> good". No demerit

> points for God even as it was "All Good."

>

> So Aristotle and even Jesus did not have that

> understanding of the

> word teleios as 'all morally good and perfect', for

> them it was a

> process that could even include pain or seeming

> failure... the way the

> Buddha saw Dukkha, transience or impermanence.

>

> So Aristotle's words in your lines:

> > >Aristotle said that God is Perfect.

> > >Therefore whatever God thinks about

> > >or focuses on must be Perfect as well.

> > >Certainly the Perfect One will not focus

> > >on imperfection.

> have a a different meaning, they have to do with the

> dynamics of the

> universe, the movement of stars and planets in

> circles and spirals,

> the idea of creation which can include processes

> which can seem 'off

> target' (hamartia)... which in the larger picture

> may not be off

> target at all.

>

> Oh there is so much more to this, I'm actually on a

> roll...

> Don't read beyond if I already have stretched your

> patience... but

> there is some neat stuff to follow.

>

> So when thinking about 'perfection' or Aristotle's

> 'teleios' we have

> to keep 'a target' in mind... something like a

> circle with a dot

> inside or even a circle with a X marking the spot

> (an old symbol that

> was eventually used for the 'anointed messiah', CHI

> RO or XR inside a

> big circle or O. This mark in a slightly simpler

> form is even found in

> the oldest writing found so far in the Indus valley

> and stands for DHA

> quite likely meaning "Divine" and found in Deus,

> dieu, Jupiter, Zeus,

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

 

Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard.

 

[Guest guest]

============================================================

michael mccarthy <enlightenment2

2004/12/11 Sat PM 05:38:05 CST

RE: Aristotle and perfection

 

But from Ramana, or experience, we know there is no

free will, no doing by man. All a dream.

*****************************

Dear One:

 

Thank you for a very profound and informative post.

 

In your view, does the thought, that it is all a dream, occur in the dream (and

thus is part of the dream) or does it have a separately reality independent of

the dream.

 

Love and blessings

 

 

Love, serve, and be helpful, but without getting disgusted, tired, pessimistic,

and exhausted. Blessings dear souls, blessings!

[Guest guest]

i feel that this thought is part of the dream because "i" am just a dream of THEONEANDONLY

michael bindel

>Dear One:

>

>Thank you for a very profound and informative post.

>

>In your view, does the thought, that it is all a dream, occur in the

dream (and thus is part of the dream) or does it have a separately

reality independent of the dream.

>

>

Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger Download today it's FREE!

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

Once, I had been telling a friend of mine that there

is no free will, and thinking there is free will, is

simply to follow a thought. Interestingly enough, his

name is Free Will. I took him to meet a spiritual

friend of mine, Neelam, who lived with Papaji. After

the satsang, Free Will went up to Neelam, and said,

"Michael says there is no free will." Neelam

immediately said "destiny" and then "no". I simply

replied "space". Always duality poses itself as some

sort of dilemma, good vs evil, love vs hate, duality

vs nonduality, free will vs destiny. The truth is

always in between, the middle way, empty loving space,

always here, always loving. Neelam says tenderness is

how we stay here.

 

Love to you

 

Michael

--- MaharishiBingoRam <bingoram wrote:

>

>

============================================================

> michael mccarthy <enlightenment2

> 2004/12/11 Sat PM 05:38:05 CST

>

> RE:

> Aristotle and perfection

>

> But from Ramana, or experience, we know there is no

> free will, no doing by man. All a dream.

> *****************************

> Dear One:

>

> Thank you for a very profound and informative post.

>

> In your view, does the thought, that it is all a

> dream, occur in the dream (and thus is part of the

> dream) or does it have a separately reality

> independent of the dream.

>

> Love and blessings

>

>

> Love, serve, and be helpful, but without getting

> disgusted, tired, pessimistic, and exhausted.

> Blessings dear souls, blessings!

>

>

>

> ------------------------ Sponsor

> --------------------~-->

> $4.98 domain names from . Register anything.

>

http://us.click./Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/bpSolB/TM

>

--~->

>

>

> /join

>

>

>

>

>

> "Love itself is the actual form of God."

>

> Sri Ramana

>

> In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

> Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

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