Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">barneyhazelwood [dwk (AT) ixpres (DOT) com] Friday, January 28, 2005 2:59 PM [ - Ramana Guru] Ramana & SLEEP 12.0pt"> 10.0pt">-- Is ANYBODY out there able to be "aware" during dreamless sleep, and sort of confirm these theories? In MY unaware state, I might argue with Ramana that I'm not aware of being in deep sleep because the body is the only thing that exists, and it's mechanically "shut down" to a certain extent during sleep, AND there IS no such thing as "Turiya" because humans are ONLY meat bodies and HAVE no "spiritual component. Do YOU have any insights on this? BH ************************************** Yes, awareness may be maintained in dreamless sleep as well as dreams … being that we are essentially that. Awareness+Dreamless Sleep is Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi in Sri Ramana’s terms. Awareness spontaneously and fully dominating all states of consciousness is known as the natural state or Sahaj state or Sahaj Samadhi. The answers to your questions cannot be given in a convincing way as these things are based on experiential knowledge which is different from experience, being itself the preceptor and the perceived, the experience and the experienced. Here the subject itself is the object of enjoyment to It Self. So who is going to convince who? As far as your position goes, that humans are only meat bodies, etc., you would certainly be able to maintain that. If you are comfortable with a certain point of view, why seek to change it? You might be interested in yoga systems or the Jain philosophy where the individual is considered a mixture of soul and matter and in that view eventually the soul frees itself from matter. Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 > Yes, awareness may be maintained in dreamless sleep as well as dreams . Do YOU maintain this awareness? HOW did you develop this? Is there ANYTHING you can say to me that indicates you are 100% confident that this awareness is not just another trick of the brain? If it WAS merely a brain-state variation with nothing beyond this life, would that be OK with you? >Awareness+Dreamless Sleep is Kevala >Nirvikalpa Samadhi in Sri Ramana's terms. Awareness spontaneously >and fully dominating all states of consciousness is known as the >natural state or Sahaj state or Sahaj Samadhi. Do you experience these "terms", or do you use these in a dogmatic way, feeling that I don't understand as you do only because you can quote the correct terminology? >The answers to your questions cannot be given >in a convincing way as these things are based on experiential >knowledge which is different from experience, being itself the >preceptor and the perceived, the experience and the experienced. >Here the subject itself is the object of enjoyment to It Self. So >who is going to convince who? So, if you can't tell me one thing that you are confident of within your practice, what is this group FOR, seeing who can use the most "terms" or sound the most learned? > As far as your position goes, that humans are only meat bodies, > etc., you would certainly be able to maintain that. There's NOTHING you can suggest to me to indicate that things are otherwise? > If you are comfortable with a certain point of view, why seek to > change it? As you can tell, I am NOT comfortable with with ANYTHING, and have a growing despair, even after honest stretches of "lots-of-effort" AND "no-effort" that ALL "spiritual" practices, experiences, and scriptures are desperate measures to keep humans from going insane because they cannot face mortality. THIS is NOT where I thought I was going, or wanted to end up. I sure wish I could be SURE of something. So what do I do, hunker down with SOME practice / philosophy, try to fit in with the sangha, and TRY to lie to myself? Ok, here's the only thing I can be sure of: the truth of suffering. > You might be interested in yoga systems or the Jain philosophy Did you choose your path according to YOUR pre-conceptions? So religion or spiritual practice is a matter of choice depending on our pre-conceptions, sort of like aesthetic choices such as liking or not liking types of music or food? Thank you for your time and responses. BH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 barneyhazelwood wrote: > [...] >As you can tell, I am NOT comfortable with with ANYTHING, and have a >growing despair, even after honest stretches of "lots-of-effort" >AND "no-effort" that ALL "spiritual" practices, experiences, and >scriptures are desperate measures to keep humans from going insane >because they cannot face mortality. THIS is NOT where I thought I >was going, or wanted to end up. I sure wish I could be SURE of >something. So what do I do, hunker down with SOME practice / >philosophy, try to fit in with the sangha, and TRY to lie to myself? >Ok, here's the only thing I can be sure of: the truth of suffering. > What some practices (enquiry included) might result in, a transformation so suffering no longer is possible. Suffering impossible, what matters the fate of the mind-body ? [...] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 > barneyhazelwood wrote: > > > [...] > > >As you can tell, I am NOT comfortable with with ANYTHING, and have a > >growing despair, even after honest stretches of "lots-of-effort" > >AND "no-effort" that ALL "spiritual" practices, experiences, and > >scriptures are desperate measures to keep humans from going insane > >because they cannot face mortality. THIS is NOT where I thought I > >was going, or wanted to end up. I sure wish I could be SURE of > >something. So what do I do, hunker down with SOME practice / > >philosophy, try to fit in with the sangha, and TRY to lie to myself? > >Ok, here's the only thing I can be sure of: the truth of suffering. > > Hi Barney! I would say, yes, hunker down with SOME practice/philosophy, that resonates, and no, don't try to fit in with any sangha or lie to yourself! It is easy to feel empathy with your frustration and wish for clarity NOW!--because who hasn't hit that wall at some or many points along the way? Wishing you peace, Jill Attachment: (text/enriched) [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Dear BH, see my comments below in blue. barneyhazelwood wrote: > Yes, awareness may be maintained in dreamless sleep as well as dreams . Do YOU maintain this awareness? No. I cannot possess awareness as a separate object or maintain it as a condition of life. I myself originate from it. I exist within this awareness, rise from this awareness, and subside into this awareness. When I said that awareness may be maintained in dreamless sleep, I was using words to point out that it is possible to be fully conscious and fully present in deep sleep in the absence of thoughts and imagination and that is called Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi. That makes us aware that this awareness is present as our own nature and we can recognize it as the background of our ordinary consciousness. The true nature of "I" if investigated fully is essentially awareness. HOW did you develop this? I did not develop it. Awareness makes itself felt. When I came across Sri Ramana's teaching, it made sense to me. Is there ANYTHING you can say to me that indicates you are 100% confident that this awareness is not just another trick of the brain? If it WAS merely a brain-state variation with nothing beyond this life, would that be OK with you? You are framing the questions in a way that in order to answer them to your satisfaction, I have to basically accept your assumptions. >Awareness+Dreamless Sleep is Kevala >Nirvikalpa Samadhi in Sri Ramana's terms. Awareness spontaneously >and fully dominating all states of consciousness is known as the >natural state or Sahaj state or Sahaj Samadhi. Do you experience these "terms", or do you use these in a dogmatic way, feeling that I don't understand as you do only because you can quote the correct terminology? No, it does not have to do with words or terminology. I use words which come to me due to my familiarity with them. People can use whatever words make sense to them. >The answers to your questions cannot be given >in a convincing way as these things are based on experiential >knowledge which is different from experience, being itself the >preceptor and the perceived, the experience and the experienced. >Here the subject itself is the object of enjoyment to It Self. So >who is going to convince who? So, if you can't tell me one thing that you are confident of within your practice, what is this group FOR, seeing who can use the most "terms" or sound the most learned? This is a sangha, a circle of friends. I created it because I wanted company of spiritual friends. We share thoughts, quotes, poetry, conversation, and there is an atmosphere of friendship and respect and love. At least most of the time. > As far as your position goes, that humans are only meat bodies, > etc., you would certainly be able to maintain that. There's NOTHING you can suggest to me to indicate that things are otherwise? > If you are comfortable with a certain point of view, why seek to > change it? As you can tell, I am NOT comfortable with with ANYTHING, and have a growing despair, even after honest stretches of "lots-of-effort" AND "no-effort" that ALL "spiritual" practices, experiences, and scriptures are desperate measures to keep humans from going insane because they cannot face mortality. THIS is NOT where I thought I was going, or wanted to end up. I sure wish I could be SURE of something. So what do I do, hunker down with SOME practice / philosophy, try to fit in with the sangha, and TRY to lie to myself? Ok, here's the only thing I can be sure of: the truth of suffering. Me too! That is one of the noble truths of the Buddha that "Life is suffering". How well most of us know. > You might be interested in yoga systems or the Jain philosophy Did you choose your path according to YOUR pre-conceptions? So religion or spiritual practice is a matter of choice depending on our pre-conceptions, sort of like aesthetic choices such as liking or not liking types of music or food? Thank you for your time and responses. BH You are welcome. Something prompted me to speak. You said you wish you could be sure of something (other than suffering). You actually are sure of something. You are sure that you are not sure of anything. Perhaps you should not underestimate this knowledge. Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.