Life is suffering / World and its sufferings

[Guest guest]

D.: There are widespread disasters spreading havoc in the world. What

is the cause of this state of affairs ?

 

M.: To whom does all this appear ?

 

D.: That won't do. I see misery around.

 

M.: You were not aware of the world and its sufferings in your sleep ;

you are conscious of them in your wakeful state. Continue in that

state in which you were not afflicted by these. That is to say, when

you are not aware of the world, its sufferings do not affect you.

When you remain as the Self, as in sleep, the world and its

sufferings will not affect you. Therefore look within. See the Self !

There will be an end of the world and its miseries.

 

D.: But that is selfishness.

 

M.: The world is not external. Because you identify yourself wrongly

with the body you see the world outside, and its pain becomes

apparent to you. But they are not real. Seek the reality and get rid

of this unreal feeling.

 

D.: There are great men, public workers, who cannot solve the problem of the misery of the world.

 

M.: They are ego-centered and therefore their inability. If they

remained in the Self they would be differant.

 

D.: Why do not Mahatmas help ?

 

M.: How do you know that they do not help ? Public speeches, physical

activity and material help are all outweighed by the silence of

Mahatmas. They accomplish more than others.

 

D.: What is to be done by us for ameliorating the condition of the world?

 

M.: If you remain free from pain, there will be no pain anywhere. The

trouble now is due to your seeing the world externally and also

thinking that there is pain there. But both the world and the pain

are within you. If you look within there will be no pain.

 

D.: God is perfect. Why did He create the world imperfect ? The work

shares the nature of the author. But here it is not so.

 

M.: Who is it that raises the question ?

 

D.: I - the individual.

 

M.: Are you apart from God that you ask this question ?

So long as you consider yourself the body you see the world as

external. The imperfections appear to you. God is perfection. His

work also is perfection. But you see it as imperfection because of

your wrong identification.

 

D.: Why did the Self manifest as this miserable world ?

 

M.: In order that you might seek it. Your eyes cannot see themselves.

Place a mirror before them and they see themselves. Similarly with

the creation.

" See yourself first and then see the whole world as the Self ."

 

D.: So it amounts to this - that I should always look within.

 

M.: Yes.

 

D.: Should I not see the world at all ?

 

M.: You are not instructed to shut your eyes from the world. You are

only to " see youself first and then see the whole world as the Self

". If you consider yourself as the body the world appears to be

external. If you are the Self the world appears as Brahman.

 

 

Dora

 

India Matrimony: Find your life partner

online.

[Guest guest]

All this talk about "sleep" seems like a "koan" to me, in that I can

never rationally understand it (please refer to the Maharshi

response below under the dotted line). So, if I can figure out a way

to stay in a coma for the rest of my life, would that do? (I'm sure

some of you would be happy about that ;>)) I notice in deep sleep,

that there IS no suffering, because there is no "awareness"! It

doesn't make sense to continue "that state" while awake, unless I'm

constantly on heroin or something like it. Am I supposed to

logically try to figure this out, until my brain explodes and I

can't think about it anymore? Are you supposed to be a zombie or

walk around in a trance, looking within rather than being aware of

the happenings of the outside world AND your internal responses to

them?? Is this realization practical for a worldly, active, and

engaged life?

 

I appreciate that you all can quote Ramana, but do YOU constantly

continue in that state, and realize it? If SO, WHAT then, allowed

you to realize? Any HINTS?

 

BH

 

> M.: You were not aware of the world and its sufferings in your

sleep ; you are conscious of them in your wakeful state. Continue in

that state in which you were not afflicted by these. That is to say,

when you are not aware of the world, its sufferings do not affect

you. When you remain as the Self, as in sleep, the world and its

sufferings will not affect you. Therefore look within. See the

Self ! There will be an end of the world and its miseries.

[Guest guest]

, "barneyhazelwood" <dwk@i...>

wrote:

 

All this talk about "sleep" seems like a "koan" to me, in that I can

never rationally understand it (please refer to the Maharshi

response below under the dotted line). So, if I can figure out a way

to stay in a coma for the rest of my life, would that do? (I'm sure

some of you would be happy about that ;>)) I notice in deep sleep,

that there IS no suffering, because there is no "awareness"! It

doesn't make sense to continue "that state" while awake, unless I'm

constantly on heroin or something like it. Am I supposed to

logically try to figure this out, until my brain explodes and I

can't think about it anymore? Are you supposed to be a zombie or

walk around in a trance, looking within rather than being aware of

the happenings of the outside world AND your internal responses to

them?? Is this realization practical for a worldly, active, and

engaged life?

 

I appreciate that you all can quote Ramana, but do YOU constantly

continue in that state, and realize it? If SO, WHAT then, allowed

you to realize? Any HINTS?

 

Namaste,

 

In the first place rationally understanding something that cannot be

measured or weighed is impossible.

Secondly there is no awareness in sleep for the inner mind hasn't

been purified so there is the one continous 'meditation' or 'sleep'

on the thought of nothing but ignorance.

Continuing the state whilst awake means in the sense of a purified

inner mind, ultimately. Above the thought of sleep so to speak.

You will always have difficulty trying to absorb this as long as you

relate it to the ultimate ignorance--------the mind

itself...ONS..Tony.

P.S. As in debates it is necessary to do one's homework. I would

suggest that if you read more on this particular subject, you will

have less difficulty relating. Of course understanding comes or

rises proportionately with the purification of the vijnanamayakosa

or awareness sheath or inner mind.

[Guest guest]

Life is suffering???

 

I hope nobody thinks that such a suggestion came from the Buddha!

 

No realized enlightened being can ever have said that, not even - and

especially not - the Buddha!

The Buddha came with a few "bang on" statements, but that "life is

suffering" was not one of them. Many of his commentators may have put

it that way, just as much as they called his statements - according to

the parlance of those days - The Four Noble Truths.

Noble Truths?

Instead of the words 'exalted or noble truth' - 'ariya sacca' - the

Buddha may have just simply used the word 'sacca' which stands for

'expressing a clear observation', 'a saying containing an obvious

truth' and even a 'stating a fact'. 'Sacca' (pronounced as `satcha')

is comparable to Jesus saying "Verily, verily, I say unto you......"

We have a similar expression, when one agrees with something and says

"I say!!!" or "That's a fact!!"

There are modern scholars who suggest that it is not certain that the

Buddha actually used the word sacca when he listed his 4 most

important observations.

Anyway sacca points to a clear evidential thing... e.g. the evidence

of humans suffering 'dukkha' (usually translated as 'suffering').

 

The Buddha listed the following facts:

Fact 1. Suffering exists!

(When we trace the history of human suffering we can see

why and when it arose from conditional conditioning.)

Fact 2. Suffering has an origin!

(When we trace conditionality, we see how the installation of

fear and desire keeps the existence of suffering arising again

and again.)

Fact 3. Suffering can cease!

(What has at one point been started can also be stopped.

When we understand the dynamics of the origination

and the continuation of suffering, suffering will cease.)

Fact 4. There is a way to return to our original free state of being

human.

(We can reclaim our innate freedom. E.g. by following the

eight-fold path.)

 

The Buddha saw what he saw... but he saw nothing especially noble or

eclectic in his discoveries. In fact, he wanted his listeners to

become as quickly as possible aware of sacca number 3 and 4, instead

of dwelling overly long on number 1 and 2.

 

There is a problem with the usual translations of some Pali words -

the language in which the Buddha's teachings have come to us.

The Pali 'dukkha' is usually translated as 'suffering', and as

everyone has his or her own personal connotations around that word, it

would be good to find out what the original meaning of dukkha is. 'Du'

means 'difficult' and 'kha' means 'to endure', so dukkha simply points

to something that one has difficulty with enduring, e.g. life.

But that does not mean that 'life per se' IS hard to endure, it means

that people can have - or tend to have - difficulty with it. Humans

can have a hard time enduring life.

A specific type of human `indirect conditional conditioning' (as

distinct from `direct natural conditioning') is the reason for that.

Indirect conditional conditioning was invented about 11,000 years ago

when it started the transition from the hunter-gather society to the

agricultural one and had some great bona fide evolutionary reasons,

but it came with some adverse side-effects... unfortunately most of us

are now suffering from those `mala fide' side-effects.

 

It is important to see the difference in emphasis between the Buddha's

view on life and the common commentators' view. Life is not

suffering, but humans have been led to suffer life. Hardship is not

intrinsic to life, but it became ALMOST intrinsic to humans who for

some reason (the adverse side-effects of indirect conditional

conditioning) at some point lost their original freedom to accept life

as it came.

This is not the popular understanding of suffering in the more common

Buddhist context, even some modern Buddhists and some very erudite

contemporary Western commentators maintain that `at best' suffering is

a thread that runs through the fabric of the universe, or `at worst'

that suffering is the thread that the whole fabric of the universe is

spun of.

Well, they may think that... but ... sacca!... that is not what the

Buddha saw.

 

If he would have seen that, he would have quickly advised everyone to

call it quits, rather then urging his followers to work diligently on

claiming or reclaiming their freedom. (His last words.) The Buddha

actually did not put much emphasis on exiting this plane of being,

just as little as he addressed the idea of god or afterlife. It is not

for nothing that for a bodhisattva nirvana can wait. A bodhisattva is

actually not even interested in any discussion of nirvana, especially

when it is understood as some other-worldly nirvana...

"Nirvana is Samsara properly understood." (cerosoul)

 

Oh gosh, the commentators really botched it up...

 

So the Buddha saw suffering as coming from some inadvertent human

conditioning, brought about by a conditioned `problematique' to

accepts life AS IS, thus leading anyone affected to wish life to be

different from the way it is here and now. (Ah, so good for the

maneuverings of politics as well as consumerism.)

 

The Buddha traced suffering very quickly back to the illusive games

that humans play, and truly... sacca!.., illusion plays strongly in

the "If..., then..." conditionalities of the usual way human deal

with each other. You see, indirect conditional conditioning is not

very reliable when applied in human nature, it works better in the

world of nature where it is more a "When.., then..." rather than an

"If.., then...)

 

Acca! Accepting life as is, returns us to bliss, not accepting life

leads us astray - via desire and illusion - to suffering.

 

Wim

[Guest guest]

, "Wim Borsboom"

<wim_borsboom> wrote:

>

> Life is suffering???

 

Namaste,

 

The Buddha discussed three kinds of dukkha.

 

Dukkha-dukkha is the obvious sufferings of physical pain, illness,

old age, death, the loss of a loved one.

Viparinama-dukkha is suffering caused by change: violated

expectations, the failure of happy moments to last.

Sankhara-dukkha is a subtle form of suffering inherent in the nature

of conditioned things, including the skandhas, the factors

constituting the human mind................ONS...Tony.from the

wikipedia even.