Guest guest Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 - garyfalk1943 Sunday, May 01, 2005 8:39 AM Ramana, Papaji and Gangaji , Harsha wrote:> True. For us Ramana is enough. Poonja ji (Papaji) visited Sri Ramana and > at least one conversation he had with Bhagavan is documented in Day by > Day with Bhagavan.> > Love to all,> Harsha> >What does think about Poonjaji's claim to have been a direct disciple of Ramana and Gangaji's subsequent claim that both Poonjaji and she "offer" Ramana's legacy to the world at large?It is a little like the current controversy surrounding Ramesh Balsekar who claims to be the successor of Nisargadatta Maharaj, a claim that is coming more and more into question.It seems that, often, gurus of less stature than, let's say a Ramana, want to be seen as having a direct connection to someone of unquestioned authority in matters spiritual.Personally, I don't believe that either Papaji or Gangaji, or any of the "enlightened" satsangers who have come out of Lucknow are really in the same league as Ramana, eventhough they may evoke his name, and claim to be part of his "tradition."Gary Interesting, all these claims to lineages, what does it all mean? Pedigrees? Not being able to stand on One's own? Who would need this? Devotees? Successors? Too bad.. Anna /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 garyfalk1943 wrote: > > What does think about Poonjaji's claim to have been a > direct disciple of Ramana and Gangaji's subsequent claim that both > Poonjaji and she "offer" Ramana's legacy to the world at large? Gary, people have the right to claim whatever they feel. Certainly Poonjaji can say that. But Bhagavan's devotees feel that Sri Ramana has no equals. Many people visited Sri Ramana including my teacher. Some devotees lived with Sri Ramana for decades. All of these things are true. The real Guru is always the Self. What lineage can we claim, other than the Self! That is what Bhagavan emphasized. All of these teachers telling us that they are in Bhagavan's lineage. Perhaps it shows insecurity. If one is Self-Realized, it is all moot. > > It is a little like the current controversy surrounding Ramesh > Balsekar who claims to be the successor of Nisargadatta Maharaj, a > claim that is coming more and more into question. > Once Sri Ramana was asked, "What is the fate of a false guru and the people who follow him". Sri Ramana simply said, "Each according to their merit." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 , Harsha wrote: > garyfalk1943 wrote: > > > > > What does think about Poonjaji's claim to have been a > > direct disciple of Ramana and Gangaji's subsequent claim that both > > Poonjaji and she "offer" Ramana's legacy to the world at large? > > > Gary, people have the right to claim whatever they feel. Certainly > Poonjaji can say that. But Bhagavan's devotees feel that Sri Ramana has > no equals. Many people visited Sri Ramana including my teacher. Some > devotees lived with Sri Ramana for decades. All of these things are > true. The real Guru is always the Self. What lineage can we claim, other > than the Self! That is what Bhagavan emphasized. All of these teachers > telling us that they are in Bhagavan's lineage. Perhaps it shows > insecurity. If one is Self-Realized, it is all moot. > > > > > It is a little like the current controversy surrounding Ramesh > > Balsekar who claims to be the successor of Nisargadatta Maharaj, a > > claim that is coming more and more into question. > > > Once Sri Ramana was asked, "What is the fate of a false guru and the > people who follow him". Sri Ramana simply said, "Each according to their > merit." When I was in Lucknow with Papaji back before it turned into a huge scene with hundreds of people, he had a small little table in his living room, like a little puja table which so many of us have. On it was a small picture of the Maharshi, with flowers, insence, etc. I never had the impression that Papaji was somehow claiming that he had any sort of legitimacy stemming from his association with the Maharshi, but rather than he was his master's disciple and had only great love, respect and reverence for him. Once I went to see Papaji in the afternoon. He was all alone in his living room reading a small little book. He seemed very engrossed in it, so I just sat there and watched him for a while. I noticed that it was a small book of the Maharshi's sayings, like one of the ones which I have had. Something about that touched me. I wondered why he was reading the book. I always read books like that trying to understand the truth. Yet, I felt Papaji already knew the truth. Anyway, I for one would like to know which of Papaji's conversations with the Maharshi is in the book you mentioned, Harsha. Again, it was my impression that Papaji loved and revered his master, and certainly was not trying to gain or claim any sort of legitimacy through honoring him. If you cannot openly love and revere your master without criticism, that seems quite strange to me.--Durga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 You are absolutely right Durgaji! The conversation is recorded on 23-5-46 (May 5, 1946). Pages 201-202 of Day by Day with Bhagavan. Poonjaji is our brother! Harsha Durga wrote: > > When I was in Lucknow with Papaji back before it turned into a huge > scene with hundreds of people, he had a small little table in his > living room, like a little puja table which so many of us have. On > it was a small picture of the Maharshi, with flowers, insence, etc. > I never had the impression that Papaji was somehow claiming that he > had any sort of legitimacy stemming from his association with the > Maharshi, but rather than he was his master's disciple and had only > great love, respect and reverence for him. > > Once I went to see Papaji in the afternoon. He was all alone in his > living room reading a small little book. He seemed very engrossed > in it, so I just sat there and watched him for a while. I noticed > that it was a small book of the Maharshi's sayings, like one of the > ones which I have had. Something about that touched me. > > I wondered why he was reading the book. I always read books like > that trying to understand the truth. Yet, I felt Papaji already > knew the truth. > > Anyway, I for one would like to know which of Papaji's conversations > with the Maharshi is in the book you mentioned, Harsha. > > Again, it was my impression that Papaji loved and revered his > master, and certainly was not trying to gain or claim any sort of > legitimacy through honoring him. > > If you cannot openly love and revere your master without criticism, > that seems quite strange to me.--Durga > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 I meant May 23, 1946. It is hard to read the Indian dates. Harsha wrote: > You are absolutely right Durgaji! The conversation is recorded on > 23-5-46 (May 5, 1946). Pages 201-202 of Day by Day with Bhagavan. > Poonjaji is our brother! > > Harsha > > Durga wrote: > > > > > When I was in Lucknow with Papaji back before it turned into a huge > > scene with hundreds of people, he had a small little table in his > > living room, like a little puja table which so many of us have. On > > it was a small picture of the Maharshi, with flowers, insence, etc. > > I never had the impression that Papaji was somehow claiming that he > > had any sort of legitimacy stemming from his association with the > > Maharshi, but rather than he was his master's disciple and had only > > great love, respect and reverence for him. > > > > Once I went to see Papaji in the afternoon. He was all alone in his > > living room reading a small little book. He seemed very engrossed > > in it, so I just sat there and watched him for a while. I noticed > > that it was a small book of the Maharshi's sayings, like one of the > > ones which I have had. Something about that touched me. > > > > I wondered why he was reading the book. I always read books like > > that trying to understand the truth. Yet, I felt Papaji already > > knew the truth. > > > > Anyway, I for one would like to know which of Papaji's conversations > > with the Maharshi is in the book you mentioned, Harsha. > > > > Again, it was my impression that Papaji loved and revered his > > master, and certainly was not trying to gain or claim any sort of > > legitimacy through honoring him. > > > > If you cannot openly love and revere your master without criticism, > > that seems quite strange to me.--Durga > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 - yosyflug Tuesday, May 03, 2005 8:48 AM Re: Ramana, Papaji and Gangaji - Harsha Sunday, May 01, 2005 4:06 PM Re: Ramana, Papaji and Gangaji Once Sri Ramana was asked, "What is the fate of a false guru and the people who follow him". Sri Ramana simply said, "Each according to their merit."^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ another take on the same issue: an old sufi tale tells about two groups of followers and their gurus: one was following a true teacher, the other - a fake. as a result of some natural cataclysm, both groups and their leaders presented themselves at the pearly gates at the same time. soon the angel on duty came out with a verdict: all the followers of the true teacher, with their leader, are to enter paradise. the false one, with all his followers, is condemned to hell.an outcry broke out. "what? among the false guru followers many are such a good, loving, well intentioned people, and now - only because they made a mistake and followed a cheat - they have to go to hell?! and how about those no-good toughs? just because they happened to follow a true teacher they have a place in paradise? how can that be?!!""this is the world of truth" came the answer. "the followers of the fake did so because something within them responded to his self-infatuation and desire for power. the followers of the true one did so in response to his unrelenting desire and devotion for truth. therefore, no arguments or appellations will change the decision. so, all the followers of fake - follow him to hell, and the true teacher's friends, enter heaven in his company!" yosy My favorite Sufi tale is This: God, waking up from an eternal sleep, asks who am I? Creation ensues Also a comment: The true 'guru' is One's life, once one has seen Who that Is. In that seeing hell is once again seen as Heaven, not some idealized version, but the truth of what is right here and now. The mystery, the beauty, the horror, the incredible tenderness all Being playing itself in us as us. Gone is the insanity of a world that had separated itself in the 'before' mind... Anna./join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 , "Anna Ruiz" <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > yosyflug > > Tuesday, May 03, 2005 8:48 AM > Re: Ramana, Papaji and Gangaji > > > > - > Harsha > > Sunday, May 01, 2005 4:06 PM > Re: Ramana, Papaji and Gangaji > > > Once Sri Ramana was asked, "What is the fate of a false guru and the > people who follow him". Sri Ramana simply said, "Each according to their > merit." > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > another take on the same issue: > an old sufi tale tells about two groups of followers and their gurus: one was following a true teacher, the other - a fake. as a result of some natural cataclysm, both groups and their leaders presented themselves at the pearly gates at the same time. soon the angel on duty came out with a verdict: all the followers of the true teacher, with their leader, are to enter paradise. the false one, with all his followers, is condemned to hell. > an outcry broke out. "what? among the false guru followers many are such a good, loving, well intentioned people, and now - only because they made a mistake and followed a cheat - they have to go to hell?! and how about those no-good toughs? just because they happened to follow a true teacher they have a place in paradise? how can that be?!!" > "this is the world of truth" came the answer. "the followers of the fake did so because something within them responded to his self- infatuation and desire for power. the followers of the true one did so in response to his unrelenting desire and devotion for truth. therefore, no arguments or appellations will change the decision. so, all the followers of fake - follow him to hell, and the true teacher's friends, enter heaven in his company!" > > > > yosy > > > My favorite Sufi tale is This: God, waking up from an eternal sleep, asks who am I? Creation ensues > > ) yes... > > Also a comment: The true 'guru' is One's life, once one has seen Who that Is. In that seeing hell is once again seen as Heaven, not some idealized version, but the truth of what is right here and now. The mystery, the beauty, the horror, the incredible tenderness all Being playing itself in us as us. Gone is the insanity of a world that had separated itself in the 'before' mind... > > > > Anna. > indeed. another sufi favorite: god provides food, men do the cooking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 - Harsha Sunday, May 01, 2005 4:06 PM Re: Ramana, Papaji and Gangaji Once Sri Ramana was asked, "What is the fate of a false guru and the people who follow him". Sri Ramana simply said, "Each according to their merit."^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ another take on the same issue: an old sufi tale tells about two groups of followers and their gurus: one was following a true teacher, the other - a fake. as a result of some natural cataclysm, both groups and their leaders presented themselves at the pearly gates at the same time. soon the angel on duty came out with a verdict: all the followers of the true teacher, with their leader, are to enter paradise. the false one, with all his followers, is condemned to hell.an outcry broke out. "what? among the false guru followers many are such a good, loving, well intentioned people, and now - only because they made a mistake and followed a cheat - they have to go to hell?! and how about those no-good toughs? just because they happened to follow a true teacher they have a place in paradise? how can that be?!!""this is the world of truth" came the answer. "the followers of the fake did so because something within them responded to his self-infatuation and desire for power. the followers of the true one did so in response to his unrelenting desire and devotion for truth. therefore, no arguments or appellations will change the decision. so, all the followers of fake - follow him to hell, and the true teacher's friends, enter heaven in his company!" yosy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 Hi All who speak of being with Ramana speak of looking into his eyes and subsequently becoming quiet, or seeing clearly that all is consciousness only. So it is with Papaji. So it is with Gangaji and the others, at least some of them as I haven't met all. Look at it this way. Consciousness shows us as children that 2000 years ago there were Buddha's and Christ's. As we grow, this isn't enough and the teachers get closer and closer in time, as our relationship with our own heart brings the mirrored reflections of those teachers into our own apparent locality. In India the sages say the guru finds you. So it was with Papaji and Ramana. All mirrored reflections of our own heart. Such is the appearance of this sangha in Michael's experience of consciousness. Any surprise? All the teachers say the same, all is consciousness, existence and bliss. And yet we say there are differences in the mirrored reflections, so giving the mind another reason to jump about. Who is the teacher? Mirrored reflections of love only. If the world is an illusion, where does Ramana or the other sages fit into the illusion? Somehow the truth is taught within this illusion, the truth of consciousness only. And it is consciousness only teaching the truth found through direct experience. Love to you Michael --- garyfalk1943 <falkgw wrote: > , Harsha > wrote: > > True. For us Ramana is enough. Poonja ji (Papaji) > visited Sri > Ramana and > > at least one conversation he had with Bhagavan is > documented in Day > by > > Day with Bhagavan. > > > > Love to all, > > Harsha > > > > > > What does think about Poonjaji's > claim to have been a > direct disciple of Ramana and Gangaji's subsequent > claim that both > Poonjaji and she "offer" Ramana's legacy to the > world at large? > > It is a little like the current controversy > surrounding Ramesh > Balsekar who claims to be the successor of > Nisargadatta Maharaj, a > claim that is coming more and more into question. > > It seems that, often, gurus of less stature than, > let's say a Ramana, > want to be seen as having a direct connection to > someone of > unquestioned authority in matters spiritual. > > Personally, I don't believe that either Papaji or > Gangaji, or any of > the "enlightened" satsangers who have come out of > Lucknow are really > in the same league as Ramana, eventhough they may > evoke his name, and > claim to be part of his "tradition." > > > Gary > > > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > --------------------~--> > In low income neighborhoods, 84% do not own > computers. > At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide! > http://us.click./S.QlOD/3MnJAA/Zx0JAA/bpSolB/TM > --~-> > > > /join > > > > > > "Love itself is the actual form of God." > > Sri Ramana > > In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma > Links > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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