It doesn't matter what we eat????????

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/26/2005 8:23:11 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, aoclery writes:

I don't extend this to the non spiritual seekers as they don't pretend

or know to be any better...........

And therein lies your own trap, dear Tony, because once we are assured

that we are on the right path, know better and therefore can relax in

the security of our own wisdom, then we have baited and snared

ourselves into the goody-goody illusion and mind trap.

We are now loftily set up as judge and jury, we know better, unlike

all those "others" and even if we have mercy and love in our hearts,

we cannot help but feel some disdain, disgust, loathing, certainly

superiority in all these many things.

As spiritually advanced beings this would be hilarious, if it were not

so pathetic, because those we often disdain, have no disdain for us,

and have made no judgments on their fellows, thereby trumping "we

spiritual beings" in the process, and without effort, which is the

very definition of being at oneness with the act of being.

Resolve that paradox, Tony and you will be well on your way toward true enlightenment.

Namaste,

Zenbob

Change Your Life.... http://www.igonet.net/zencommunications

Attachment: (image/jpeg) BountifulD1.jpg [not stored]

[Guest guest]

, zen2wrk@a... wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 11/26/2005 8:23:11 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> aoclery writes:

>

> I don't extend this to the non spiritual seekers as they don't

pretend

> or know to be any better...........

>

>

> And therein lies your own trap, dear Tony, because once we are

assured that

> we are on the right path, know better and therefore can relax in

the security

> of our own wisdom, then we have baited and snared ourselves into

the

> goody-goody illusion and mind trap.

>

> We are now loftily set up as judge and jury, we know better,

unlike all

> those "others" and even if we have mercy and love in our hearts,

we cannot help

> but feel some disdain, disgust, loathing, certainly superiority

in all these

> many things.

>

> As spiritually advanced beings this would be hilarious, if it

were not so

> pathetic, because those we often disdain, have no disdain for us,

and have made

> no judgments on their fellows, thereby trumping "we spiritual

beings" in the

> process, and without effort, which is the very definition of

being at

> oneness with the act of being.

>

> Resolve that paradox, Tony and you will be well on your way

toward true

> enlightenment.

>

> Namaste,

>

>

> Zenbob

 

Namaste,

 

I don't know if I am on the right path for sure, for that is the

mind thinking. But I do know not participating in the mistreatment

and murder of animals to feed my samskaras, definately isn't.

 

You mention Hitler didn't actually commit personal violence only

encouraged. It is the same with spiritual meat eaters, they

encourage violence for their own ego/desire samskaras.

 

Again I'm not having a shot at the non spiritual or religious

people, they don't know any better. They are either misled by so

called spiritual texts, or they are not at the level of awareness

needed.

 

I'm just pointing out the hypocrites or those with cognitive

disfuncton................ONS...Tony

[Guest guest]

Tony, Tony, Tony. The food issue is a

tough issue and we should drop it. We all know what we know and we feel

what we feel and that's how it is. There is no point in justifying

views or attacking those of others by calling one of their koshas

impure and all that because of their diet. Ultimately it is an issue of

control. We cannot control the preferences and conditioning of others.

We see the conditioning of others through our own conditioning and we

cannot even change our own. The basic fact of life is that although we

feel free and act free, viewing ourselves as individuals, we are

embedded in a much larger system (call it prakriti or cosmos) and the

human body is the most minute particle floating in that system. Even

the earth, stars, and galaxies are specs of matter floating in space

through some power.

So it comes down to the question of control. To what extent do we have

control to make any independent judgment, movement, or choose

direction. My life experiences teach me that we are carried along in

this stream of events, the force of which is sometimes too powerful to

resist. We act when we have to act. The Hero acts when He or She has to

act prompted by some power. So even the great people act according to

their conditioning and circumstances and personality. In this stream of

consciousness we have come across others and for a time we hold on to

each other and then there is the inevitable parting. So there arises

this compassion for living beings from this knowledge. Everyone is in

the same boat. This is why Buddha says that change is the nature of

life. Everything is in transition simultaneously.

Our individual existence, including diet, relationships, friends,

disappointments, pleasures, happiness, understanding, etc., are not

separate from that change. Maybe you do have a very pure

vijnanamayakosa kosha Tony and it is certainly reason for you to

celebrate and be satisfied. I drink to you as an advanced spiritual

person with a pure kosha, maybe the purest around. In the late 1970s, I

studied with my teacher Chitrabhanuji, who is a Jain, and used to often

visit the Jain Center. One day when I came to the meditation center,

there was a movie being shown about animals being slaughtered. It was

based on actual reality of the animals and they had filmed it. It was

absolutely horrible to watch and after a few minutes, I said to my

teacher that I did not want to see it. He said that some people need

to see it and so the movie continued. I left because I was unable to

watch. I wondered at the time if the movie, in showing some extreme

violence towards animals, was being violent towards people who were

watching it. I don't know. I left. The world has many conflicts and

difficulties and there is a cycle of violence one can be aware of.

Seeing clearly my own helplessness, and accepting it, I remain open to

the possibility of friendship and the sangha where like minded people

can enjoy each others company. I was thinking of a retreat this summer

and perhaps inviting my mother to teach some vegetarian Indian cooking.

Harsha

Tony OClery wrote:

Namaste,

Some say it doesn't matter what we eat. However does the cruelty of

the slaughterhouse and the terror of the animal matter??..This is the

cognitive disfunction of many on the spiritual path. Their level of

awareness through purification of the vijnanamayakosa is not high

enough. This ability of the human mind to filter out this bad

information about death, slaughter and cruelty in favour of satisfying

an eogistic desire to suage one's palate and addiction is nothin short

of amazing.

I don't extend this to the non spiritual seekers as they don't pretend

or know to be any better...........ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

, Harsha wrote:

>

> *Tony, Tony, Tony. The food issue is a tough issue and we should

drop

> it. We all know what we know and we feel what we feel and that's

how it

> is. There is no point in justifying views or attacking those of

others

> by calling one of their koshas impure and all that because of

their

> diet. Ultimately it is an issue of control. We cannot control the

> preferences and conditioning of others. We see the conditioning of

> others through our own conditioning and we cannot even change our

 

Namaste,

 

Very good Harsha!!!I don't regard myself as having a completely

purified vijnanamayakosa, far from it. I don't condemn people for

eating meat if that is their level of understanding and they claim

no Daya or compassion. I don't condemn the ordinary person or the

primitives.

 

I have just wondered what the psychological cause was of this

obvious and fatal disconnect. I have finally come to the conclusion

it is moved by the same conditioning as the 'True Believer

Sydndrome' and 'Cognitive Dissonance'. As Zenbob pointed out Hitler

suffered from it. They don't fit exactly perhaps a psychologist can

give me an explanation of this amazing displacement. I would prefer

not to say that spiritual meat eaters suffered from the 'Hitler

Sydnrome', a condition of denial and vicarious violence.

 

I was interested in the debate and how the Ego handles it; it is a

window into the mind. As you say a food fight inevitably ends up

like this for people do not want to discuss their failings or wanton

desires. The ego rationalises everything away but the death agony

and scream of an innocent animal..........ONS..Tony.

http://www.geocities.com/aoclery/AVEGETARIANandAHIMSA.htm

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sharing Tony. I have put you

on moderation for now. People who wish to continue having discussions

with you can join your list or write you privately and get the full

benefit of your wisdom.

Harsha

Tony OClery wrote:

Namaste,

Very good Harsha!!!I don't regard myself as having a completely

purified vijnanamayakosa, far from it. I don't condemn people for

eating meat if that is their level of understanding and they claim

no Daya or compassion. I don't condemn the ordinary person or the

primitives.

I have just wondered what the psychological cause was of this

obvious and fatal disconnect. I have finally come to the conclusion

it is moved by the same conditioning as the 'True Believer

Sydndrome' and 'Cognitive Dissonance'. As Zenbob pointed out Hitler

suffered from it. They don't fit exactly perhaps a psychologist can

give me an explanation of this amazing displacement. I would prefer

not to say that spiritual meat eaters suffered from the 'Hitler

Sydnrome', a condition of denial and vicarious violence.

I was interested in the debate and how the Ego handles it; it is a

window into the mind. As you say a food fight inevitably ends up

like this for people do not want to discuss their failings or wanton

desires. The ego rationalises everything away but the death agony

and scream of an innocent animal..........ONS..Tony.

http://www.geocities.com/aoclery/AVEGETARIANandAHIMSA.htm

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/26/2005 11:09:34 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, aoclery writes:

I'm just pointing out the hypocrites or those with cognitive disfuncton................

Aye, but again, who are you to be doing the pointing? Pointing is

sort of rude, you know. Maybe you could just murmer quietly and say

why you choose your own path, and leave off judging others with such

harsh terms...they are judgements and they are written in a superior

tone..."I would never do that...that's hypocritical, that's murder,

that's violence...how barbaric, how backward...etc., etc., but you

fail to realize that some people, from both a genetic and cultural

basis need to eat meat or meat-like protein and that alternatives

that they can adequately digest are not readily available yet.

Someday they may be...it would be great to have avocados that had the

basic protein and structure of meat...they are only a short way from

meat protein now. But they are not very lean, a lot of fat content

in an avocado. Also, we now just devolve into the argument of

violence toward plant life. It too is living. We have investigated

this before and we end up with the circular argument of "well, I

believe an animal has feelings and does not want to die or be eaten,

but I just cannot be sure about plants" which in no way lets anyone

off the hook, because now its simply what we think we know versus

what we are not sure of. hardly the basis for judging others

harshly.

Plants react dramatically when violence is done to them or even nearby

plants when they are measured with an EKG. Because we cannot hear

them scream does not mean that they are not experiencing fear, pain,

horror, even complex thoughts. No brain? So what? By that standard

we would be eating politicians and PHDs every day.

Cheers,

Zenbob

Change Your Life.... http://www.igonet.net/zencommunications

[Guest guest]

(to serve in LOVE) to live accordingly thats sadhana in

practice....... hoping i could transmit what i feel......

thank you again for this email of yours what o real joy... in

love in GD michael wrote: Tony, Tony,

Tony. The food issue is a tough issue and we should drop it. We all

know what we know and we feel what we feel and that's how it is.

There is no point in justifying views or attacking those of others by

calling one of their koshas impure and all that because of their diet.

Ultimately it is an issue of control. We cannot control the

preferences and

conditioning of others. We see the conditioning of others through our

own conditioning and we cannot even change our own. The basic fact of

life is that although we feel free and act free, viewing ourselves as

individuals, we are embedded in a much larger system (call it

prakriti or cosmos) and the human body is the most minute particle

floating in that system. Even the earth, stars, and galaxies are

specs of matter floating in space through some power. So it comes

down to the question of control. To what extent do we have control to

make any independent judgment, movement, or choose direction. My life

experiences teach me that we are carried along in this stream of

events, the force of which is sometimes too powerful to resist. We

act when we have to act. The Hero acts when He or She has to act

prompted by some power. So even the great people act according to

their conditioning and circumstances and personality. In this stream

of consciousness we have come across others and

for a time we hold on to each other and then there is the inevitable

parting. So there arises this compassion for living beings from this

knowledge. Everyone is in the same boat. This is why Buddha says that

change is the nature of life. Everything is in transition

simultaneously. Our individual existence, including diet,

relationships, friends, disappointments, pleasures, happiness,

understanding, etc., are not separate from that change. Maybe you do

have a very pure vijnanamayakosa kosha Tony and it is certainly

reason for you to celebrate and be satisfied. I drink to you as an

advanced spiritual person with a pure kosha, maybe the purest around.

In the late 1970s, I studied with my teacher Chitrabhanuji, who is a

Jain, and used to often visit the Jain Center. One day when I came

to the meditation center, there was a movie being shown about animals

being slaughtered. It was based on actual reality of the animals and

they had filmed it. It was

absolutely horrible to watch and after a few minutes, I said to my

teacher that I did not want to see it. He said that some people need

to see it and so the movie continued. I left because I was unable to

watch. I wondered at the time if the movie, in showing some extreme

violence towards animals, was being violent towards people who were

watching it. I don't know. I left. The world has many conflicts and

difficulties and there is a cycle of violence one can be aware of.

Seeing clearly my own helplessness, and accepting it, I remain open

to the possibility of friendship and the sangha where like minded

people can enjoy each others company. I was thinking of a retreat

this summer and perhaps inviting my mother to teach some vegetarian

Indian cooking.HarshaTony OClery wrote: Namaste,Some say it doesn't

matter what we eat. However does the cruelty of the slaughterhouse

and

the terror of the animal matter??..This is the cognitive disfunction

of many on the spiritual path. Their level of awareness through

purification of the vijnanamayakosa is not high enough. This ability

of the human mind to filter out this bad information about death,

slaughter and cruelty in favour of satisfying an eogistic desire to

suage one's palate and addiction is nothin short of amazing.I don't

extend this to the non spiritual seekers as they don't pretend or

know to be any better...........ONS..Tony.

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