Fwd: It doesn't matter what we eat???...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/27/2005 9:29:02 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, aoclery writes:

Zenbob with his verbal non dualism, vndism, is doing a good job of

mental gymnastics again, mixing his apples and oranges all up to

preserve his desire to eat meat and ignore the suffering, of the

animal.

Tony,

I have no problem with directly discussing your issues, whatsoever,

but you have avoided answering any of my questions put to you. That

is avoidance, too. Let me share something with you, before you also

judge me in your wide net of generalization. I have gone to ashrams,

I have been a vegetarian for periods of time...I desired to be so, for

all of the reasons that you so proudly (and that is the problem here)

state. I love animals, I raise them for the pleasure of their

company -- not for slaughter...or did you not bother to read that

reply? I have brought back a healthy wild bird population to this

area that was totally frightened away because the local residents

were shooting at them constantly. I worked for five years

ceaselessly to protect riparian habitats for raptors and other wild

birds and now, I can say, that these efforts have paid off, quite

magnificently. My acreage is one of the few areas in all of the

western US where Imperial woodpeckers live and breed peacefully, and

flourish. But we do have death and slaughter here Tony. How and

why? Who could be so spiritually evil as to kill another living

creature for their food? Raccoons, opossums, coyote and even puma

frequent these areas and kill my goats, chickens, geese and even have

attacked and killed neighbor dogs and Llamas.

Would you kill a puma to save a goat? To save a child? To save

yourself, Tony? Its a difficult real world decision, but if you love

your flock, your family and your own existence, you learn to fight to

protect these things, and sometimes you have to do terrible things

and hope that the universe forgives and understands. After all, the

predator just wanted to eat, and my goats, birds, children and I just

wanted not to be eaten. There is no other ethical or moral issue, no

other higher spiritual nature to that struggle.

Finally, Tony, I found that I could not remain healthy eating just a

vegetarian diet, I cannot digest soy products unless they are

ferments--many people cannot. In order to maintain good muscle tone

and not get weak and also to gain excess weight, I found that

meat...fish, chicken and some beef in moderation gave me the best

balance nutritionally. Efforts to cut back or substitute non-meat

sources simply do not work for me. I am agile for a 225 pound 5 foot

ten inch tall male, quick enough to catch goats, sheep and other wild

animals that leaner, younger people in the area cannot do. I can

hold an adult Emu completely still by gripping its powerful legs in

one hand, while placing a bag over its head to calm it down, so that

it can be safely transported without injury.

Strength and agility are necessary when one works in ranch type

environment, and although you think that an aspirant on a vegan diet

in an ashram meditating and singing is far and away further along

some spiritual path than the cowboy who sits under the stars playing

his guitar and grooming his horse...well, I really don't know if that

is true, and God Save Me from ever thinking that I know the answer to

that.

Our complaint here Tony is that you keep setting yourself up as judge

and jury, when there is no judge, there is no jury, there is only

your own choice, my own choice and to each his or her own.

Your comments violate the spirit of good etiquette, and although we

all enjoy a little cage rattling from time to time, your repeated

comments in this same attitude are wearisome and tactless. It is one

thing to comment on your own choices in life, good or bad, and we all

know that all of us have made mistakes and are imperfect, but you

don't do this- you keep decrying the practices of others and

providing completely erroneous analysis of what you believe their

motives and actions mean or what consequences they lead to.

You don't know. We don't know. Everyone should cultivate compassion

and kindness in their daily lives. No one is arguing with you on

this obvious point. No one has called for the daily torture of

innocent animals, plants or people. No one is arguing that the

torture of prisoners in secret US camps is a fine thing, in fact, a

wonderful thing that should be expanded because of the good it

accomplishes!

Who do you take us all for, Tony? We are not idiots, we are not cruel

people, we are not dense, and we are not involved in this group to be

lectured by someone such as yourself who lives in some high-minded

delusion of spiritual superiority. We are interested in good ideas,

wisdom, elevating the spirit through discourse, discussion and humor.

We like to come here to dip our cup into the spiritual reservoir that

is this Satsangh, to come away refreshed, a smile upon our faces, new

clarity in our minds, and perhaps the still shimmering goodness of our

drink to pass this cup among others so that they too might be

refreshed and healed.

I usually try to avoid bringing the ugly realities of the outside

world into this place, Tony, because this is not the purpose of this

place. I apologize for needing to express some of that in this post,

and I beg the forgiveness and understanding of the other members.

Peace,

Namaste,

Zenbob

Change Your Life.... http://www.igonet.net/zencommunications

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Zenbob, that was nicely put. There is a new book you (and

others) may like to read, called, "The Sociopath Next Door", by Martha

Stout, who is a psychologist at Harvard University. It is helpful in

understanding the behavior of some--about 1 in 20--how some of the

people we interact with in most ordinary circumstances fundamentally

lack a basic capacity for compassion or any deep kind of emotional

feeling, including conscience. The ordinary sociopath is often an

intelligent person who, by nature of this lack of emotional connection,

is easily bored, and so engages his or her capabilities in argument,

competition, oneupmanship, trying to make others look bad, etc, and is

most involved in the 'game' in human interaction. Many sociopaths are

not heinously violent in the usual sense of psychopathology, just

engaged on these other levels with whatever issue or arena they choose

to act in. In addition to reading this book in context of recent list

discussions, it also sheds new light on the current political

admininstration in the US.

 

Jill

 

 

On Nov 27, 2005, at 3:23 PM, zen2wrk wrote:

> In a message dated 11/27/2005 9:29:02 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> aoclery writes:

> Zenbob with his verbal non dualism, vndism, is doing a good job of

> mental gymnastics again, mixing his apples and oranges all up to

> preserve his desire to eat meat and ignore the suffering, of the

> animal.

> Tony,

>  

> I have no problem with directly discussing your issues, whatsoever,

> but you have avoided answering any of my questions put to you.  That

> is avoidance, too.  Let me share something with you, before you also

> judge me in your wide net of generalization.  I have gone to ashrams,

> I have been a vegetarian for periods of time...I desired to be so, for

> all of the reasons that you so proudly (and that is the problem here)

> state.  I love animals, I raise them for the pleasure of their company

> -- not for slaughter...or did you not bother to read that reply?  I

> have brought back a healthy wild bird population to this area that was

> totally frightened away because the local residents were shooting at

> them constantly.  I worked for five years ceaselessly to protect

> riparian habitats for raptors and other wild birds and now, I can say,

> that these efforts have paid off, quite magnificently.  My acreage is

> one of the few areas in all of the western US where Imperial

> woodpeckers live and breed peacefully, and flourish.  But we do have

> death and slaughter here Tony.  How and why?  Who could be so

> spiritually evil as to kill another living creature for their food? 

> Raccoons, opossums, coyote and even puma frequent these areas and kill

> my goats, chickens, geese and even have attacked and killed neighbor

> dogs and Llamas. 

>  

> Would you kill a puma to save a goat?  To save a child? To save

> yourself, Tony?  Its a difficult real world decision, but if you love

> your flock, your family and your own existence, you learn to fight to

> protect these things, and sometimes you have to do terrible things and

> hope that the universe forgives and understands.  After all, the

> predator just wanted to eat, and my goats, birds, children and I just

> wanted not to be eaten.  There is no other ethical or moral issue, no

> other higher spiritual nature to that struggle.

>  

> Finally, Tony, I found that I could not remain healthy eating just a

> vegetarian diet,  I cannot digest soy products unless they are

> ferments--many people cannot.  In order to maintain good muscle tone

> and not get weak and also to gain excess weight, I found that

> meat...fish, chicken and some beef in moderation gave me the best

> balance nutritionally.  Efforts to cut back or substitute non-meat

> sources simply do not work for me.  I am agile for a 225 pound 5 foot

> ten inch tall male, quick enough to catch goats, sheep and other wild

> animals that leaner, younger people in the area cannot do.  I can

> hold an adult Emu completely still by gripping its powerful legs in

> one hand, while placing a bag over its head to calm it down, so that

> it can be safely transported without injury. 

>  

> Strength and agility are necessary when one works in ranch type

> environment, and although you think that an aspirant on a vegan diet

> in an ashram meditating and singing is far and away further along some

> spiritual path than the cowboy who sits under the stars playing his

> guitar and grooming his horse...well, I really don't know if that is

> true, and God Save Me from ever thinking that I know the answer to

> that.

>  

> Our complaint here Tony is that you keep setting yourself up as judge

> and jury, when there is no judge, there is no jury, there is only your

> own choice, my own choice and to each his or her own.

> Your comments violate the spirit of good etiquette, and although we

> all enjoy a little cage rattling from time to time, your repeated

> comments in this same attitude are wearisome and tactless.  It is one

> thing to comment on your own choices in life, good or bad, and we all

> know that all of us have made mistakes and are imperfect, but you

> don't do this-  you keep decrying the practices of others and

> providing completely erroneous analysis of what you believe their

> motives and actions mean or what consequences they lead to.

>  

> You don't know.  We don't know.  Everyone should cultivate compassion

> and kindness in their daily lives.  No one is arguing with you on this

> obvious point.  No one has called for the daily torture of innocent

> animals, plants or people.  No one is arguing that the torture of

> prisoners in secret US camps is a fine thing, in fact, a wonderful

> thing that should be expanded because of the good it accomplishes! 

>  

> Who do you take us all for, Tony?  We are not idiots, we are not cruel

> people, we are not dense, and we are not involved in this group to be

> lectured by someone such as yourself who lives in some high-minded

> delusion of spiritual superiority.   We are interested in good ideas,

> wisdom, elevating the spirit through discourse, discussion and humor. 

> We like to come here to dip our cup into the spiritual reservoir that

> is this Satsangh, to come away refreshed, a smile upon our faces, new

> clarity in our minds, and perhaps the still shimmering goodness of our

> drink to pass this cup among others so that they too might be

> refreshed and healed.

>  

> I usually try to avoid bringing the ugly realities of the outside

> world into this place, Tony, because this is not the purpose of this

> place.  I apologize for needing to express some of that in this

> post, and I beg the forgiveness and understanding of the other

> members.

>  

> Peace,

>  

> Namaste,

>  

> Zenbob 

>  

> Change Your Life....

>

>  http://www.igonet.net/zencommunications

>

>

> /join

>

>

>

>

>

> "Love itself is the actual form of God."

>

> Sri Ramana

>

> In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ▪  Visit your group "" on the web.

>  

> ▪  

>  

>  

> ▪   Terms of

> Service.

>

>

>

>

Attachment: (text/enriched) [not stored]

[Guest guest]

writes: Zenbob with his verbal non dualism, vndism, is doing a good

job of mental gymnastics again, mixing his apples and oranges all up

to preserve his desire to eat meat and ignore the suffering, of the

animal. Tony, I have no problem with directly discussing your

issues, whatsoever, but you have avoided answering any of my

questions put to you. That is avoidance, too. Let me share

something with you, before you also judge me in your wide net of

generalization. I have gone to ashrams, I have been a vegetarian for

periods of time...I desired to be so, for all of the reasons that you

so proudly (and that is the

problem here) state. I love animals, I raise them for the pleasure of

their company -- not for slaughter...or did you not bother to read

that reply? I have brought back a healthy wild bird population to

this area that was totally frightened away because the local

residents were shooting at them constantly. I worked for five years

ceaselessly to protect riparian habitats for raptors and other wild

birds and now, I can say, that these efforts have paid off, quite

magnificently. My acreage is one of the few areas in all of the

western US where Imperial woodpeckers live and breed peacefully, and

flourish. But we do have death and slaughter here Tony. How and

why? Who could be so spiritually evil as to kill another living

creature for their food? Raccoons, opossums, coyote and even puma

frequent these areas and kill my goats, chickens, geese and even have

attacked and killed neighbor dogs and Llamas. Would you kill a

puma to save a goat? To save a child? To save yourself, Tony? Its a

difficult real world decision, but if you love your flock, your family

and your own existence, you learn to fight to protect these things,

and sometimes you have to do terrible things and hope that the

universe forgives and understands. After all, the predator just

wanted to eat, and my goats, birds, children and I just wanted not to

be eaten. There is no other ethical or moral issue, no other higher

spiritual nature to that struggle. Finally, Tony, I found that I

could not remain healthy eating just a vegetarian diet, I cannot

digest soy products unless they are ferments--many people cannot. In

order to maintain good muscle tone and not get weak and also to gain

excess weight, I found that meat...fish, chicken and some beef in

moderation gave me the best balance

nutritionally. Efforts to cut back or substitute non-meat sources

simply do not work for me. I am agile for a 225 pound 5 foot ten

inch tall male, quick enough to catch goats, sheep and other wild

animals that leaner, younger people in the area cannot do. I can

hold an adult Emu completely still by gripping its powerful legs in

one hand, while placing a bag over its head to calm it down, so that

it can be safely transported without injury. Strength and agility

are necessary when one works in ranch type environment, and although

you think that an aspirant on a vegan diet in an ashram meditating

and singing is far and away further along some spiritual path than

the cowboy who sits under the stars playing his guitar and grooming

his horse...well, I really don't know if that is true, and God Save

Me from ever thinking that I know the answer to that. Our complaint

here Tony is that you keep setting yourself up as judge and jury, when

there is no judge, there is no jury, there is only your own choice, my

own choice and to each his or her own. Your comments violate the

spirit of good etiquette, and although we all enjoy a little cage

rattling from time to time, your repeated comments in this same

attitude are wearisome and tactless. It is one thing to comment on

your own choices in life, good or bad, and we all know that all of us

have made mistakes and are imperfect, but you don't do this- you keep

decrying the practices of others and providing completely erroneous

analysis of what you believe their motives and actions mean or what

consequences they lead to. You don't know. We don't know.

Everyone should cultivate compassion and kindness in their daily

lives.

No one is arguing with you on this obvious point. No one has called

for the daily torture of innocent animals, plants or people. No one

is arguing that the torture of prisoners in secret US camps is a fine

thing, in fact, a wonderful thing that should be expanded because of

the good it accomplishes! Who do you take us all for, Tony? We

are not idiots, we are not cruel people, we are not dense, and we are

not involved in this group to be lectured by someone such as yourself

who lives in some high-minded delusion of spiritual superiority. We

are interested in good ideas, wisdom, elevating the spirit through

discourse, discussion and humor. We like to come here to dip our cup

into the spiritual reservoir that is this Satsangh, to come away

refreshed, a smile upon our faces, new clarity in our minds, and

perhaps the still shimmering goodness of our drink to pass this cup

among others so that they too might be refreshed and healed. I

usually try to avoid bringing the ugly realities of the outside world

into this place, Tony, because this is not the purpose of this place.

I apologize for needing to express some of that in this post, and I

beg the forgiveness and understanding of the other members. Peace,

Namaste, Zenbob Change Your Life....

http://www.igonet.net/zencommunications

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