Guest guest Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 Dear all, I think this enlightenment and spirituality-business is dangerous and destructive. It leads us away from and destroys what is of vital importance to ourselves, that is, nature. What I mean is that anything we experience, is an experience of nature (or the cosmos). In short, all there is, is nature. Nature is not some external thing. As you are never separate from nature, nature and you are one: it is impossible to say where a human 'ends' and nature/cosmos 'begins'. To ignore/destroy nature is to ignore/destroy humans, to straightjacket nature is to straightjacket yourself, and vice versa. Nature is one. Nature is a (comm)unity and everything that occurs in nature (f.e. a human being) is a form of that (comm)unity. So it's not Shiva, Shakti, (para)Brahma(n), God, Allah, Buddha-nature or whatever other spiritual, mystical, or transcendental concept/path that was, is or will be making your day: it all is, has been and will be nature. Hence there is no high and mighty plain of Detachment, Happiness and Bliss where the Enlightened dwell: every one of us is here, in/with nature, as nature. And I assure you, we all suffer tremendously from the wars that are being waged on nature. So instead of searching for ((y)our) Happiness and ((y)our) Enlightenment, we/you should better start minding and fighting for what we are and what we were from the very beginning, viz. nature and her (comm)unity. Notice that, I, that is, nature, am being destroyed while you are searching for Enlightenment. In other words, the search for a Higher State of Being (Enlightenment, Liberation, Extinction) is one of the terrors of the contemporary world. We do not need Enlightenment, we need nature, and we need it now! Other terrors that haunt our world are the terrorism of the Higher Being (cfr. Abrahamic God), the terrorism of the Higher Community/Leader(s) (cfr. states, kingdoms), and the terrorism of the Higher Reason (cfr. Western Enlightened Reason). The terrorism of the Higher Being (God) turns humans into creatures of this Being on a mission to spread His Message and Love. This is a very tough terrorism as it is purely rooted in the belief in this Being, whose existence can not be proven or disproven. The terrorism of the Higher Reason (cfr. Western Enlightened Reason) turns humans into civilised, developed people who (are made to) believe in the High/Developed value of democratic states, science, industry,.. with all the political, economic, industrial, (neo)colonial, social, cultural, ecological consequences thereof. The terrorism of the Higher Community/Leader(s) (states, kingdoms) turns people into subjects, civilians or followers who (are made to) believe that this Higher Community/Leader(s) is more important than their own natural (comm)unity. The terrorism of the Higher State of Being (Enlightenment) turns human beings into seekers of spirituality/enlightenment who (are made to) believe that (people with) this Higher State of Being is(are) more important/valuable than (people with) other states of being. All these searches for Higher Goals terrorise/straightjacket human beings. Being ignorant that nature is one, these straightjackets tear nature into pieces (creatures, civilised/developed people, ..) and destroy the (comm)unity of nature. Let's face it: we are not really creatures, civilised/developed people, labour-units, subjects, civilians, followers or spiritual/enlightenment seekers. Let's stop terrorising and straightjacketing ourselves: we are nature!! The goal of nature is not to be holy/divine, civilised, obedient or enlightened, but to live and enjoy her/our (comm)unity/ies. Therefore, we must (learn to) support, conserve and live in/as/with our natural (comm)unity/ies with love and wisdom, and help stopping the denial, straightjacketing and destruction of nature/ourself in the name of some Higher Goal. The only energy/power humans need is not nuclear or electromagnetic, but energy/power that is naturally available. The fusion humans need is not a nuclear fusion, but a fusion of natural/human energies. I wish us the best of luck! Greetings, Jeroen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 , "Jeroen" <sphurna wrote: >I think this enlightenment and spirituality-business is dangerous and destructive. It leads us away from and destroys what is of vital importance to ourselves, that is, nature. Good Evening, Friend! It is nature itself in which creation and destruction arise, as natural expressions of the totality's universal functioning, but in reality, there is neither creation nor destruction. Those who understand this are blessed. Those that don't remain in perpetual conflict with themselves, and yet attribute their dis-ease to external influences, such as you've enumerate in your epistle. When we can understand how this internal conflict arises, how we have separated ourselves at the heart from our own true nature (which is happiness, harmony, and peace), the struggle can come to an end, while nature takes its course, creating and destroying, just as she has always done. LoveAlways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 , "Bob OHearn" <hrtbeat7 wrote: > > , > "Jeroen" <sphurna@> wrote: > > >I think this enlightenment and spirituality-business is dangerous and > destructive. It leads us away from and destroys what is of vital > importance to ourselves, that is, nature. > > > > > Good Evening, Friend! > > It is nature itself in which creation and destruction arise, as > natural expressions of the totality's universal functioning, but in > reality, there is neither creation nor destruction. Those who > understand this are blessed. Those that don't remain in perpetual > conflict with themselves, and yet attribute their dis-ease to > external influences, such as you've enumerate in your epistle. When > we can understand how this internal conflict arises, how we have > separated ourselves at the heart from our own true nature (which is > happiness, harmony, and peace), the struggle can come to an end, > while nature takes its course, creating and destroying, just as she > has always done. > > > LoveAlways > thank you, bob my brother! _()_ yosy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 Q: The war is on. What is your attitude to it? M: In some place or other, in some form or other, the war is always on. When was there a time when there was no war? Some say it is the will of God. Some say it is God's play. It is another way of saying that wars are inevitable and nobody is responsible. Q: But what is your own attitude? M: Why impose attitudes on me? I have no attitudes to call my own. Q: Surely somebody is responsible for this horrible and senseless carnage. Why do people kill each other so readily? M: Search for the culprit within. The ideas of 'me' and 'mine' are at the root of all conflict. Be free of them and you will be out of conflict. Q: What of it that I am out of conflict? It will not affect the war. If I am the cause of war, I am ready to be destroyed. Yet it stands to reason that the disappearance of a thousand like me will not stop the wars. They did not start with my birth and they will not end with my death. I am not responsible, so who is? M: Strife and struggle are a part of existence. Why don't you inquire who is responsible for existence? Q: Why do you say that existence and conflict are inseparable? Can there be no existence without strife? I need not fight others to be myself. M: You fight others all the time for your survival as a separate body-mind, a particular name and form. To live you must destroy. From the moment you were conceived you started a war with your environment - a merciless war of mutual extermination, until death sets you free. Q: My question remains unanswered. You are merely describing what I know - life and its sorrows. But who is responsible you do not say. When I press you, you throw the blame on God, or karma, or my own greed and fear - which merely invites further questions. Give me the final answer. M: The final answer is this: nothing is. All is a momentary appearance in the field of universal consciousness; continuity as a name, and form as a mental formation only, easy to dispel. Q: I am asking about the immediate, the transitory, the appearance. Here is a picture of a child killed by soldiers. It is a fact - staring at you. You cannot deny it. Now, who is responsible for the death of the child? M: Nobody and everybody. The world is what it contains and each thing affects all others. We all kill the child and we all die with it. Every event has innumerable causes and produces numberless effects. It is useless to keep accounts, nothing is traceable. Q: Your people speak of karma and retribution. M: It is merely a gross approximation: in reality we are all creators and creatures of each other, causing and bearing each other's burden. ~ Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, "I Am That" __/\__ LoveAlways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 , "Bob OHearn" <hrtbeat7 wrote: > > > > Q: The war is on. What is your attitude to it? > > M: In some place or other, in some form or other, > the war is always on. When was there a time when > there was no war? Some say it is the will of God. > Some say it is God's play. It is another way of > saying that wars are inevitable and nobody is responsible. > > Q: But what is your own attitude? > > M: Why impose attitudes on me? I have no attitudes > to call my own. > > Q: Surely somebody is responsible for this horrible > and senseless carnage. Why do people kill each other > so readily? > > M: Search for the culprit within. The ideas of 'me' > and 'mine' are at the root of all conflict. > Be free of them and you will be out of conflict. > > Q: What of it that I am out of conflict? It will not > affect the war. If I am the cause of war, I am ready > to be destroyed. Yet it stands to reason that the > disappearance of a thousand like me will not stop the wars. > They did not start with my birth and they will not end > with my death. I am not responsible, so who is? > > M: Strife and struggle are a part of existence. > Why don't you inquire who is responsible for existence? > > Q: Why do you say that existence and conflict are > inseparable? Can there be no existence without strife? > I need not fight others to be myself. > > M: You fight others all the time for your survival as > a separate body-mind, a particular name and form. > To live you must destroy. From the moment you were > conceived you started a war with your environment - > a merciless war of mutual extermination, > until death sets you free. > > Q: My question remains unanswered. You are merely > describing what I know - life and its sorrows. > But who is responsible you do not say. When I press you, > you throw the blame on God, or karma, or my own greed > and fear - which merely invites further questions. > Give me the final answer. > > M: The final answer is this: nothing is. > All is a momentary appearance in the field of universal > consciousness; continuity as a name, and form as a mental > formation only, easy to dispel. > > Q: I am asking about the immediate, the transitory, > the appearance. Here is a picture of a child killed > by soldiers. It is a fact - staring at you. > You cannot deny it. Now, who is responsible > for the death of the child? > > M: Nobody and everybody. > The world is what it contains and each thing affects > all others. We all kill the child and we all die with it. > Every event has innumerable causes and produces > numberless effects. It is useless to keep accounts, > nothing is traceable. > > Q: Your people speak of karma and retribution. > > M: It is merely a gross approximation: in reality > we are all creators and creatures of each other, > causing and bearing each other's burden. > > ~ Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, "I Am That" > > > > __/\__ > > > LoveAlways > Of course 'you are that/dead'! That's precisely what I am saying! Jeroen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 , "Jeroen" <sphurna wrote: >Of course 'you are that/dead'! That's precisely what I am saying! Good Day, Friend! Even "nature" is a concept, a mental construct. You say: "...we/you should better start minding and fighting for what we are and what we were from the very beginning, viz. nature and her (comm)unity." Thus, you prolong the war of ideas by fighting yourself, and this struggle is no different than the "enlightenment and spirituality- business" you complain about above. Furthermore, you say: "We do not need Enlightenment, we need nature, and we need it now!" If we already are that (nature), then what is actually "needed" is to wake up to that reality, rather than projecting more of our dualistic concepts derived from conditional interpretations on perception, resulting in the complaint about the terrors within nature, for example, or the way nature may choose to express itself, even in its evolutionary efforts to become fully self-aware (ie via spiritual practice). __/\__ LoveAlways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 Dear shri Jeroen, Your mail was ambiguous.To stay in our own self is our nature said maharishi.Do u think that any sadhana is dangerous?Please clarify as iam not able to understand properly! vijay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 , "Bob OHearn" <hrtbeat7 wrote: > > , > "Jeroen" <sphurna@> wrote: > > >Of course 'you are that/dead'! > That's precisely what I am saying! > > > Good Day, Friend! > > Even "nature" is a concept, a mental construct. Dear Bob, Nature is what is running through your veins, what is flowing in your nose, what is making your heart beat, what you are doing with your eyes right now! Stop that "I am That" and "Harmony, peace and love" nonsense! You're messing with (human) beings/lives here!! Do you know the verbs pollute, straightjacket, terrorise? Do you realise that these are not the activities human beings should perform? Do you realise that we/you have to STOP these fucked up acts and human beings, and have to (learn to) behave in ways that do not straightjacket and destroy who/what we are, viz. nature? Or do you still think 'I am that' and the 'real reality' is "Harmony, peace and love"? Jeroen > > You say: "...we/you should better start minding and fighting for > what we are and what we were from the very beginning, viz. nature and > her (comm)unity." > > Thus, you prolong the war of ideas by fighting yourself, and this > struggle is no different than the "enlightenment and spirituality- > business" you complain about above. > > > Furthermore, you say: "We do not need Enlightenment, we > need nature, and we need it now!" > > If we already are that (nature), then what is actually "needed" is to > wake up to that reality, rather than projecting more of our dualistic > concepts derived from conditional interpretations on perception, > resulting in the complaint about the terrors within nature, for > example, or the way nature may choose to express itself, even in its > evolutionary efforts to become fully self-aware (ie via spiritual > practice). > > > > __/\__ > > > > LoveAlways > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 --- Jeroen <sphurna wrote: > Dear all, > > I think this enlightenment and spirituality-business > is dangerous and > destructive. It leads us away from and destroys what > is of vital .........> > The only energy/power humans need is not nuclear or > electromagnetic, > but energy/power that is naturally available. The > fusion humans need > is not a nuclear fusion, but a fusion of > natural/human energies. > > > I wish us the best of luck! > > > Greetings, > > > Jeroen > Jeroen, I went through your long letter..I think you are not really very clear about what you want to say.. You started out by saying that enlightenment and spirituality ..it leads us away from what is vital and important to ourselves..Then it can't be true spirituality..Ramana was the coolest person in the world..Even the people in his presence felt relaxed and without a care..the longer u practice the vichara the happier u will feel..Ramana took an interest in wordly affairs ..He read the papers listened to the radio and things like that..didn't cut himself off from the world..It is a natural process..Ramana never expected people to suppress their natural urges..A time may come when u grow out of them.. No one can be your guru (your guide)..You need to tap into the intelligence within u..by doing the vichara..The vichara solves all your problems (spiritual and wordly) because they are one. alec ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Please note that when replying to long posts, to edit the script to which you are reply. The oriignal is still in the chain or thread. Thank you for your considerate words, and for refocussing on the Vichara, moderator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 , "Jeroen" <sphurna wrote: >Nature is what is running through your veins, what is flowing in your nose, what is making your heart beat, what you are doing with your eyes right now! Good Day, Friend! It is also what is polluting, straight-jacketing, and terrorizing -- these are activities which nature performs, and has been performing since the very first breath. Your body itself is killing you, even as we speak! Nature itself wiped out a large portion of life on earth in the greatest mass extinction ever known on this planet. We can either identify with nature's activity, devising and manipulating futile strategies to survive and prosper in the midst of it, and thus remain bound to the wheel of change, or we can wake up and recognize it for what it is -- nothing but endless modifications of consciousness, dream-like, with no enduring subtantiality. Basically, when we identify with and cling to it, discriminating some sense of self, we suffer, regardless of how our temporary story seems to go. When we break the bonds of identification, recognizing the true and empty nature of nature, we are free. Ultimately, freedom and bondage themselves are both concepts which can be transcended, as can the "I-am-the-body/I-am-nature" idea, but for most of us, this takes some devoted work, which is what spiritual practice is all about. We can continue to bang our head against the wall for a very long time, but what we end up with is nothing but a bloody head. Of course, you are welcome to knock yourself out -- that's the option of crusaders. The Middle East debacle is merely a current example of the crusader mentality, and as always, nature takes its course. Robert Oppenheimer had the best intentions when he assembled his team in New Mexico to unlock nature's secrets. As Lope de Vega wrote, "Even from the Gates of Heaven there is a path to Hell". So, does this mean that we ignore the world's strife and suffering? Not at all! In fact, it is only when we truly understand the essential nature of existence that we are capable of being of any real use to each other. Until then, we represent nothing but the blind trying to lead the blind. LoveAlways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 RamanaMaharshi, vijaysk wrote: > > Dear shri Jeroen, > Your mail was ambiguous.To stay in our own self is our nature said > maharishi.Do u think that any sadhana is dangerous?Please clarify as iam not > able to understand properly! > vijay > Dear Vijay, Indeed, all spiritual practices are dangerous because they lead you away from what you are in order to attain some kind of God(dess), Self or 'no-self', or Enlightenment. I mean, everything you (can) experience is nature and her forms. And every human being, every thing that occurs is an experience/form of nature. So instead of seeking God(dess)/Self, we should concentrate on nature/ourselves and (learn to) live and protect the (comm)unity of nature from the straightjackets/wars of the 4 terrorisms (see my text) Hence if we want to be and protect ourselves � nature � we must resist and fight against the terrorisms! Remember that you are not really a creature, a civilian, a civilised/modern person, a labour-unit/employee, or a seeker of the Self. That is how the terrorists (try to) straightjacket you. You have always been and will always be nature, one with nature. We must stop the auto-destruction! I hope this is of help. Jeroen MODERATOR'S NOTICE: When hitting the "Reply" button, please shorten the post to which you are responding, as has been done here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 RamanaMaharshi, "Sachin Chavan" <chavansachin wrote: > > Your emphasis on Prakriti (nature) is understandable. > > Purush (Atman) and Prakriti (nature/universe) are two sides of the same coin > While the former is the potential, the latter is the manifest. > > Let go! > Sachin > Dear Sachin, I don't see any coin here! Don't see two things here! Only nature! See what I mean?? Jeroen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Dear Jeroen Many thanks for your contribution. I like the honesty. For me, what you are saying about being led ‘away from what you are to attain some kind of God(dess)…’and the dangers of that is true, (though I don’t experience that Ramana asked for us to search at all) It’s funny how words and dialogue about spiritual matters can so easily result in confusion, searching, more duality and war/terrorism. I wonder about what seem to be contradictions in what you say….if all is nature then the ‘terrorists’ are nature too. Also you use the word ‘should’ and ‘must’ a lot which feels quite terrorist to me. Doesn’t following nature mean there aren’t any shoulds and musts? Just being and silence. Warm wishes Joy font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold"> RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] On Behalf Of Jeroen 31 March 2006 15:17 RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Nothing but nature 12.0pt"> 10.0pt">RamanaMaharshi, vijaysk wrote: > > Dear shri Jeroen, > Your mail was ambiguous.To stay in our own self is our nature said > maharishi.Do u think that any sadhana is dangerous?Please clarify as iam not > able to understand properly! > vijay > Dear Vijay, Indeed, all spiritual practices are dangerous because they lead you away from what you are in order to attain some kind of God(dess), Self or 'no-self', or Enlightenment. I mean, everything you (can) experience is nature and her forms. And every human being, every thing that occurs is an experience/form of nature. So instead of seeking God(dess)/Self, we should concentrate on nature/ourselves and (learn to) live and protect the (comm)unity of nature from the straightjackets/wars of the 4 terrorisms (see my text) Hence if we want to be and protect ourselves � nature � we must resist and fight against the terrorisms! Remember that you are not really a creature, a civilian, a civilised/modern person, a labour-unit/employee, or a seeker of the Self. That is how the terrorists (try to) straightjacket you. You have always been and will always be nature, one with nature. We must stop the auto-destruction! I hope this is of help. Jeroen MODERATOR'S NOTICE: When hitting the "Reply" button, please shorten the post to which you are responding, as has been done here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 I am happy you see only 'One'. Words would always produce duality. But you understood what I meant. Sachin ---- Jeroen 03/31/06 20:51:02 RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Nothing but nature RamanaMaharshi, "Sachin Chavan"<chavansachin wrote:>> Your emphasis on Prakriti (nature) is understandable.> > Purush (Atman) and Prakriti (nature/universe) are two sides of thesame coin> While the former is the potential, the latter is the manifest.> > Let go!> Sachin>Dear Sachin,I don't see any coin here! Don't see two things here! Only nature!See what I mean??Jeroen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Dear Jeroen, May be being from the Western part of the world, you may have different ideas of spiritual practice/s. We do not 'seek' God(dess)/Self as you say, rather we "Surrender" our self - identity (of a separate self) when we pray. "Surrender" (Bhakti) has been used as a great tool to merge one's separate ego into the Whole. And your concerns about religious fanaticism, though appropriate given the happenings around the world, may not meet its targets here on this board. Let go! Sachin ---- Jeroen 03/31/06 20:58:11 RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Nothing but nature Dear Vijay,Indeed, all spiritual practices are dangerous because they lead youaway from what you are in order to attain some kind of God(dess), Selfor 'no-self', or Enlightenment.JeroenMODERATOR'S NOTICE:When hitting the "Reply" button, please shorten the post to which you are responding, as has been done here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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