Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Where has Alton been? Doesn't he love us anymore? Love, michael --- satkartar5 <mi_nok wrote: > we are discussing karma I don't 'belive' > in it, but know about guilt. > > <grin> > > Alton said I should post this here: > > "believe me Alton your karma beliefs > are a self-made prison > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Om Namo Bhagavathe Sri Ramanaaya Dear Jacob: 10. How will the mind become quiescent? By the inquiry ‘Who am I?’. The thought ‘Who am I?’ will destroy all other thoughts, and like the stick used for stirring the burning pyre, it will itself in the end get destroyed. Then, there will arise Self-realization. >From Who Am I? anbudan John Siva—Siva - "John" <bharani (AT) onetel (DOT) com> <bharani (AT) onetel (DOT) com> Friday, July 30, 2004 7:56 AM Fwd: Karma > RamanaMaharshi, "jacmattvm" <jacmattvm> > wrote:> Dear friends, Yesterday when I went for a walk in the evening I was > thinking about Karma or action. Can any action ever culminate in > truth? Can any thinking process ever culminate in truth? Can action > ever reach that which has never acted? Can the changing ever reach > the unchanging? Can thought ever reach the no thought? Does not > action result in more action? In that way isnt who am i? also a > thinking process? a process in karma? Can truth ever be a process of > cause and effect? Isnt it better to wait for truth to reveal itself?> All these are thoughts which went through my mind. Those of U who > are > more knowledgeable and experienced kindly post ur ideas on these > questions, if u have the time. Love Jacob> --- End forwarded message ---> > ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 16/07/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya Dear Jacob, ISvarArpitam necchayAkrtam / cittaSodhakam muktisAdhakam // Action without desire, dedicated to the Lord, purifies the mind and brings about Liberation. So says Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi in Upadesa Saram - v. 3. And in v. 10 of the same text: hrtsthalemanah svasthatAkriyA / bhaktiyogabodhAScaniScitam // The act (kriyA) of abiding in one's natural state, the mind set in the Heart, is without doubt, Devotion, Yoga, and Knowledge. In truth, this is the pre-eminent act. -- >From Talks: M. : 'Merging the mind into the Heart certainly comprises meritorious duty (karma), devotion (bhakti), yoga and supreme wisdom (jnana). That is the whole truth in a nut-shell.' D. : That does not satisfy my search for happiness. I am unable to keep my mind steady. The Master quoted again from the same book: 'Continuous search for what the mind is results in its disappearance. That is the straight path. [v. 17] D. : How to search for the mind then? M. : The mind is only a bundle of thoughts. The thoughts have their root in the 'I'-thought. He quoted: 'Whoever investigates the origin of the 'I'-thought for him the ego perishes. This is the true investigation.' The true 'I' is then found shining by itself. (from Talks; 222) -- Regards, Miles --------- > Dear friends, Yesterday when I went for a walk in the evening I was > thinking about Karma or action. Can any action ever culminate in > truth? Can any thinking process ever culminate in truth? Can action > ever reach that which has never acted? Can the changing ever reach > the unchanging? Can thought ever reach the no thought? Does not > action result in more action? In that way isnt who am i? also a > thinking process? a process in karma? Can truth ever be a process of > cause and effect? Isnt it better to wait for truth to reveal itself? > All these are thoughts which went through my mind. Those of U who are > more knowledgeable and experienced kindly post ur ideas on these > questions, if u have the time. Love Jacob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 jacmattvm <jacmattvm > wrote: Dear friends, Yesterday when I went for a walk in the evening I was thinking about Karma or action. Can any action ever culminate in truth? No. Action, whatever be it's form, or content, is an expression of Truth. There is no action, which is not an expression of Truth. Can any thinking process ever culminate in truth? No. Thought can never reach the source of thought. Just like a painted character on a canvas, no matter how wise, no matter how profound, no matter how much of self-investigation it has done, can ever sit next to the Painter and share a cup of tea. Can action ever reach that which has never acted? No. Can the changing ever reach the unchanging? No. For the changing to reach the unchanging the changing and the unchanging have to be two. The "wave" in the Ocean oscillates between the heights of the crest and the troughs of the crash. The "wave" in the Ocean does not have an independent individual existence, for "it" to ever reach the Ocean. For in truth, the "wave" is nothing but "an" expression, consequent of the Ocean in movement. Can thought ever reach the no thought? "No-thought" is a thought conceived by thought, to perpetuate itself. Does not action result in more action? Yes. For each manifest object, through which action happens, is a reflection of the other, each object, existing only in each other's reflection. Thus an action, any action, whether mentation or physical actuality, while seems to be an individual action, is always the action of the whole, as a whole. In that way isnt who am i? also a thinking process? a process in karma? Yes, it is. While it is not a etched in stome dictum, sometime the thought of "Who am I?", falls back on itselves, for an implosion to take place. There is no casual linkage to such an implosion. People have muttered "Who Am I", for 3 decades. And have remained muttering. Can truth ever be a process of cause and effect? No. All cause and effect, is actually a secondary effect of the movement in the moment. Isnt it better to wait for truth to reveal itself? There is nothing better. There is nothing worse, either. There is this, which is the absence of all conceptualzings. Including the conceptualizing of a "this". All these are thoughts which went through my mind. Those of U who are more knowledgeable and experienced kindly post ur ideas on these questions, if u have the time. Love Jacob Love Avril Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Have a look at: http://www.the-covenant.net/pou139.htm jacmattvm <jacmattvm > wrote: Dear friends, Yesterday when I went for a walk in the evening I was thinking about Karma or action. Can any action ever culminate in truth? Can any thinking process ever culminate in truth? Can action ever reach that which has never acted? Can the changing ever reach the unchanging? Can thought ever reach the no thought? Does not action result in more action? In that way isnt who am i? also a thinking process? a process in karma? Can truth ever be a process of cause and effect? Isnt it better to wait for truth to reveal itself?All these are thoughts which went through my mind. Those of U who are more knowledgeable and experienced kindly post ur ideas on these questions, if u have the time. Love Jacob Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Dear Jacob: in my understanding, actions of body and mind(thoughts) that created and sustains this un-real individual existence through one or many lives can at the best remove that un-reality. this action to remove the un-reality (for instance thru 'who am i' practice) is impelled also ONLY through the Grace of the Guru or the God because without the Waker's will, the dream character cannot perform any action (otherwise why would these thoughts be occuring to you in your walk as opposed to other thoughts?). according to Shri. Bhagavan, the reality has to and will show by itself once this un-reality is removed. 'thaanaaga-th thOnRumE undhiipaRa' (upadesa undhiyaar verse 20) ["It shows up on Its own"] is what Shri. Bhagavan declares over and over again. love, Murthy RamanaMaharshi, Avril Sanya <avrilsanya> wrote: > Hello Jacob (again):-) > > Have a look at: > > http://www.the-covenant.net/pou139.htm > > > jacmattvm <jacmattvm> wrote: > Dear friends, Yesterday when I went for a walk in the evening I was > thinking about Karma or action. Can any action ever culminate in > truth? Can any thinking process ever culminate in truth? Can action > ever reach that which has never acted? Can the changing ever reach > the unchanging? Can thought ever reach the no thought? Does not > action result in more action? In that way isnt who am i? also a > thinking process? a process in karma? Can truth ever be a process of > cause and effect? Isnt it better to wait for truth to reveal itself? > All these are thoughts which went through my mind. Those of U who are > more knowledgeable and experienced kindly post ur ideas on these > questions, if u have the time. Love Jacob > > > > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Dear members, Our friend Miles wrote the following in answer to Jacob's query. --- Miles <miles.wright wrote: > > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya > > Dear Jacob, > > ISvarArpitam necchayAkrtam / > cittaSodhakam muktisAdhakam // > > Action without desire, dedicated to the Lord, > purifies the mind and brings > about Liberation. > > So says Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi in Upadesa > Saram - v. 3. > Then our friend John, although not in direct reply to Jacob, posted: Upadesa Undiyar verse 02 2. vinaiyin viLaivu viLivutRu vittaay vinaikkadal viizhttidu múNdii paRá viidu taralilai yúNdii paRá ! ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Fruits of acts will die, and yet as seeds, They'll dump you in a sea of deeds, úNdii paRá In these no liberation will be! úNdii paRá .....Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi snip These two statements, attributed to Sri Ramana Maharshi, appear to be contradictory. The first quote indicates that actions performed with a certain attitude purify the mind and lead to liberation. The second quote appears to state the opposite. What is one to make of this? Regards, michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya Dear Michael, > These two statements, attributed to Sri Ramana > Maharshi, appear to be contradictory. The first quote > indicates that actions performed with a certain > attitude purify the mind and lead to liberation. The > second quote appears to state the opposite. > What is one to make of this? Where is the contradiction? One talks of 'ordinary' acts with desire for fruits i.e. verse 2 > Fruits of acts will die, and yet as seeds, > They'll dump you in a sea of deeds, ?Ndii paR? > In these no liberation will be! ?Ndii paR? the other of meritorious acts without desire. i.e. verse 3 > Action without desire, dedicated to the Lord, > purifies the mind and brings > about Liberation. Perfect synergy. These are verses 2 and 3 of the same text. Verse 2 above taken from the Tamil version, verse 3 taken from the Sanskrit. Here are both verse translated from Sanskrit: That transient fruit, which obstructs the way, is the cause of (further) descent into the great ocean of action. (2) To overcome this transient fruit [of action] Bhagavan then explains that: Action without desire, dedicated to the Lord, purifies the mind and brings about Liberation. (3) Regards, Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Dear Miles, --- Miles <miles.wright wrote: > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya > > Dear Michael, > > > These two statements, attributed to Sri Ramana > > Maharshi, appear to be contradictory. The first > quote > > indicates that actions performed with a certain > > attitude purify the mind and lead to liberation. > The > > second quote appears to state the opposite. > > > What is one to make of this? > > Where is the contradiction? > One talks of 'ordinary' acts with desire for fruits > > i.e. verse 2 > > Fruits of acts will die, and yet as seeds, > > They'll dump you in a sea of deeds, ?Ndii paR? > > In these no liberation will be! ?Ndii paR? > > the other of meritorious acts without desire. > > i.e. verse 3 > > Action without desire, dedicated to the Lord, > > purifies the mind and brings > > about Liberation. > > Perfect synergy. > These are verses 2 and 3 of the same text. Verse 2 > above taken from the > Tamil version, verse 3 taken from the Sanskrit. > > Here are both verse translated from Sanskrit: > > That transient fruit, which obstructs the way, is > the cause of (further) > descent into the great ocean of action. (2) > > To overcome this transient fruit [of action] > Bhagavan then explains that: > > Action without desire, dedicated to the Lord, > purifies the mind and brings > about Liberation. (3) > > Regards, > Miles > > I am always truly in awe of your knowledge of Sanskrit and apparently Tamil. For that knowledge is sometimes the only way to judge the quality of translations. Also, I am so ignorant that I didn't even know that "Upadesa Saram" and "Upadesa Undiyar" were the same text/book. Then when I read verse 3 before verse 2 of a different translation I just didn't understand. Regards, michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Dear Michale, Miles and others: v3 of "upadesa undhiyaar" which is the orignal tamil of upadaesa saaraha in Sanskrit (both were by Shri. Bhagavan) goes: karuththanukk aakkum nitkaamiya kanmam karuththaith thiruththiya(k)th unthiipara gadhivazhi kaaNbikkum unthiipara. the line "cittaSodhakam muktisAdhakam" in the v3 of upadesa saaraha means 'purifying the mind' (chittasodhakam), 'is favourable for the attainment of Liberation' (muktisAdhakam); just as in the Tamil verse: kaaNbikkum - shows gadhivazhi - a path to Liberation Shri. Bhagavan simply says "desireless actions that are devoted to the Lord will PURIFY the mind and SHOW the path to Liberation" Please note that Shri. Bhagavan does NOT say 'desireless actions by themselves brings about liberation'; (just like mere tilling the land will not bring about plants and trees). 'purification of mind' is only a preparatory step that 'shows' the way to Liberation. when carefully studied one will see that "it is in fact not even the way"; it just 'shows the way'; the eventual way (the process of Self Inquiry) is detailed in later verses (v 16-v20 upadesa undhiyaar). love, Murthy > Dear Jacob, > > ISvarArpitam necchayAkrtam / > cittaSodhakam muktisAdhakam // > > Action without desire, dedicated to the Lord, > purifies the mind and brings > about Liberation. > > So says Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi in Upadesa > Saram - v. 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 This is great - excellent scholarship as ever - the context is everything! Quoting Miles <miles.wright: > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya > > Dear Michael, > > > These two statements, attributed to Sri Ramana > > Maharshi, appear to be contradictory. The first quote > > indicates that actions performed with a certain > > attitude purify the mind and lead to liberation. The > > second quote appears to state the opposite. > > > What is one to make of this? > > Where is the contradiction? > One talks of 'ordinary' acts with desire for fruits > > i.e. verse 2 > > Fruits of acts will die, and yet as seeds, > > They'll dump you in a sea of deeds, ?Ndii paR? > > In these no liberation will be! ?Ndii paR? > > the other of meritorious acts without desire. > > i.e. verse 3 > > Action without desire, dedicated to the Lord, > > purifies the mind and brings > > about Liberation. > > Perfect synergy. > These are verses 2 and 3 of the same text. Verse 2 above taken from the > Tamil version, verse 3 taken from the Sanskrit. > > Here are both verse translated from Sanskrit: > > That transient fruit, which obstructs the way, is the cause of (further) > descent into the great ocean of action. (2) > > To overcome this transient fruit [of action] Bhagavan then explains that: > > Action without desire, dedicated to the Lord, purifies the mind and brings > about Liberation. (3) > > Regards, > Miles > > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > Links > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 hello, many questions about Karma law... as i see this questions are related to a spiritual path by Karma...actions...and so the "right" actions to get the "fruits"..... i think about God who act through many bodys...see through many eyes....all existing beings, everything and everybody is the body of God....acting ... how about the Karma of this acts?... i believe that God Himself don't change and is not influenced by anything......nothing else but God existing... but...there is the ego mind...which don't let us enter into the conscience of absolut unity....into God Maybe a realized person is at all the time "One" with all (his/her) acts...no more questions or expectations about anything... for some people it's more important on "how" to act...with the knowledge and connection to God...behind all this life and actions.... for some people it's more important on "what" to act.... many many questions about Karma...like many different Karmas.....Karma is related to an individual person.......when this person stop being individual...and become the Self...One with the truth...God....Karma will disappear the actions which bring us closer to God are good... love and peace are the fruits of it... the actions which bring a restless mind...produce high waves.....and some people become very proud of it...proud to be a big wave on an ocean...? why not enter into the ocean...of love...into God?.... with love Marc RamanaMaharshi, "jacmattvm" <jacmattvm> wrote: > Dear <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php? q=friends&v=56">friends</a>, Yesterday when I went for a walk in the evening I was > thinking about Karma or action. Can any action ever culminate in > truth? Can any thinking process ever culminate in truth? Can action > ever reach that which has never acted? Can the changing ever reach > the unchanging? Can thought ever reach the no thought? Does not > action result in more action? In that way isnt who am i? also a > thinking process? a process in karma? Can truth ever be a process of > cause and effect? Isnt it better to wait for truth to reveal itself? > All these are thoughts which went through my mind. Those of U who are > more knowledgeable and experienced kindly post ur ideas on these > questions, if u have the <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=time&v=56">time</a>. <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=Love&v=56">Love</a> Jacob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 hello, many questions about Karma law... as i see this questions are related to a spiritual path by Karma...actions...and so the "right" actions to get the "fruits"..... i think about God who act through many bodys...see through many eyes....all existing beings, everything and everybody is the body of God....acting ... how about the Karma of this acts?... i believe that God Himself don't change and is not influenced by anything......nothing else but God existing... but...there is the ego mind...which don't let us enter into the conscience of absolut unity....into God Maybe a realized person is at all the time "One" with all (his/her) acts...no more questions or expectations about anything... for some people it's more important on "how" to act...with the knowledge and connection to God...behind all this life and actions.... for some people it's more important on "what" to act.... many many questions about Karma...like many different Karmas.....Karma is related to an individual person.......when this person stop being individual...and become the Self...One with the truth...God....Karma will disappear the actions which bring us closer to God are good... love and peace are the fruits of it... the actions which bring a restless mind...produce high waves.....and some people become very proud of it...proud to be a big wave on an ocean...? why not enter into the ocean...of love...into God?.... with love Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 does it exist...or merely a concept? proofs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 , "trueadept" <trueadept wrote: > does it exist...or merely a concept? proofs? "Sri Ramana regarded the law of Karma as a manifestation of God's will. He said that prior to Self-realisation there is a personal God, Iswara, who controls each person's destiny. It is Iswara who has ordained that everyone must suffer the consequences of his actions and it is Iswara who selects the sequences of activities that each person must undergo in each lifetime. One cannot escape from Iswara's jurisdiction while one still identifies with the activities of the body. The only way to become free of his authority is to transcend Karma completely by realising the Self..."from the Preamble by David Godman ________ Question: Who is the projectionist? What is the mechanism, which selects a small portion of the Sanchita Karma (The store of Karmic debts accumulated from previous births) and then decides that it shall be experienced as Prarabdha Karma (That part of one's Sanchita Karma which must be worked out in the present life.)? Sri Ramana Mahrshi: Individuals have to suffer their Karmas but Iswara manages to make the best of their Karmas for his purpose. God manipulates the fruits of Karma but he does not add or take away from it. The subconscious of man is a warehouse of good and bad Karma. Iswara chooses from this warehouse what he sees will best suit the spiritual evolution at the time of each man, whether pleasant or painful. Thus there is nothing arbitrary. Question: In `Upadesa Saram', you say that Karma bears fruit by the ordinance of God (Karta). Does this mean that we reap the consequences of Karma solely because God wills it? Sri Ramana Maharshi: In this verse Karta (God) means Iswara. He is the one who distributes the fruits of actions to each person according to his Karma. That means that he is the manifest Brahman. The real Brahman is unmanifest and without motion. It is only the manifest Brahman that is named as Iswara. He gives the fruit to each person according to his actions (Karma). That means that Iswara is only an agent and that he gives wages according to the labour done. That is all. Without this Sakti (power) of Iswara, this Karma would not take place. That is why Karma is said to be on its own, inert. Questioner: The present experiences are the result of past Karma. If we know the mistakes committed before, we can rectify them. Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one mistake is rectified there yet remains the whole Sanchita Karma from former births which is going to give you innumerable births. So that is not the procedure. The more you prune a plant, the more vigorously it grows. The more you rectify your Karma, the more it accumulates. Find the root of Karma and cut it off. Question: Does the Karma theory mean that the world is the result of action and reaction? If so, action and reaction of what? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Until realisation there will be Karma, that is action and reaction. After realisation there will be no Karma and no world. Question: If I am not the body why am I responsible for the consequences of my good and bad actions? Sri Ramana Maharshi: If you are not the body and do not have the idea `I am the doer', the consequences of your good or bad actions will not affect you. Why do you say about the actions the body performs `I do this' or `I did that'? As long as you identify yourself with the body like that you are affected by the consequences of the actions, that is to say, while you identify with the body you accumulate good and bad Karma. Questioner: But since I am not the body I am not really responsible for the consequences of good or bad actions. Sri Ramana Maharshi: If you are not, why do you bother about the question? Questioner: In some places it is stated that human effort is the source of all strength and that it can even transcend Karma. In others it is said that it is all divine grace. It is not clear which of them is correct. Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes, some schools of philosophy say that there is no God other than Karma of the previous birth, that is Karma done in the present birth in accordance with the scriptures is known as Purushkara (human effort), that the previous and present Karmas meet for a head-on fight like rams and that the one that is weaker gets eliminated. That is why these people say that one should strengthen Purushkara. If you ask such people what the origin of Karma is, they say that such a question is not to be raised as it is like the eternal question, `Which is earlier, the seed or the tree?' Debates such as this are mere arguments, which can never arrive at the final truth. That is why I say first find out who you are. If one asks, `Who am I? How did I get this Dosha (fault) of life?', the `I' will subside and one will realise the Self. If one does this properly the idea of Dosha will be eliminated and peace will be obtained. Why even obtained? The Self remains as it is. The essence of Karma is to know the truth of oneself by enquiring `Who am I, the doer, who begins to do Karmas?' Unless the doer of Karmas, the ego, is annihilated through enquiry, the perfect peace of supreme bliss, which is the result of Karma Yoga, cannot be achieved. Question: Can people wipe out the consequences of their bad actions by doing Mantras or Japa (repeating God's name) or will they necessarily have to experience them? Sri Ramana Maharshi: If the feeling `I am doing Japa' is not there, the bad actions committed by a man will not stick to him. If the feeling `I am doing the Japa' is there, the consequences of bad actions will persist. Question: Does the Punya (merit accumulated from virtuous acts) extinguish Papa (demerit accumulated from sinful acts)? Sri Ramana Maharshi: So long as the feeling `I am doing' is there, one must experience the result of one's acts, whether they are good or bad. How is it possible to wipe out one act with another? When the feeling that `I am doing' is lost, nothing affects a man. Unless one realises the Self, the feeling `I am doing' will never vanish. For one who realises the Self where is the need for Japa? Where is the need for Tapas (austerity)? Owing to the force of Prarabdha life goes on, but he who has realised the Self does not wish for anything. Prarabdha Karma is of three categories, Ichha, Anichha and Parechha (personally desired, without desire and due to others' desire). For the one who has realised the Self, there is no Ichha-Prarabdha but the two others, Anichha and Parechha, remain. Whatever a Jnani (Self- realised) does is for others only. If there are things to be done by him for others, he does them but the results do not affect him. Whatever be the actions that such people do, there is no Punya and no Papa attached to them. But they do only what is proper according to the accepted standard of the world – nothing else. Those who know that what is to be experienced by them in this life is only what is already destined in their Prarabdha will never feel perturbed about what is to be experienced. Know that all one's experiences will be thrust upon one whether one wills them or not. Question: The realised man has no further Karma. He is not bound by his Karma. Why should he still remain within his body? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Who asks this question? Is it the realised man or the Ajnani (ignorant)? Why should you bother what the Jnani (Self- realised) does or why he does anything? Look after yourself. You are now under the impression you are the body and so you think that the Jnani also has a body. Does the Jnani say he has a body? He may look to you as if he has a body and he may appear to be doing things with the body, as others do, but he himself knows that he is bodiless. The burnt rope still looks like a rope, but it can't serve as a rope if you try to bind anything with it. A Jnani is like that – he may look like other people, but this is only an outer appearance. So long as one identifies oneself with the body, all this is difficult to understand. That is why it is sometimes said in reply to such questions, `The body of the Jnani will continue till the force of Prarabdha works itself out, and after the Prarabdha is exhausted it will drop off'. An illustration made use of in this connection is that of an arrow already discharged which will continue to advance and strike its target. But the truth is the Jnani has transcended all Karmas, including the Prarabdha Karma, and he is not bound by the body or its Karmas. Not even an iota of Prarabdha exists for those who uninterruptedly attend to space of consciousness, which always shines as `I am', which is not confined in the vast physical space, and which pervades everywhere without limitations. Such alone is the meaning of the ancient saying, `There is no fate for those who reach or experience the heavens'. Question: If a thing comes to me without any planning or working for it and I enjoy it, will there be no bad consequences from it? Sri Ramana Maharshi: It is not so. Every act must have its consequences. If anything comes your way by reason of Prarabdha, you can't help it. If you take what comes, without any special attachment, and without any desire for more of it or for a repetition of it, it will not harm you by leading to further births. On the other hand, if you enjoy it with great attachment and naturally desire for more of it, it is bound to lead to more and more births. Question: According to the astrological science, predictions are made about coming events taking into account the influence of the stars. Is that true? Sri Ramana Maharshi: So long as you have the feeling of egotism all that is true. When the egotism is destroyed, even if they appear to see they do not really see. Destiny is the result of past action. It concerns the body. Let the body act as may suit it. Why are you concerned with it? Why do you pay attention to it? Should anything happen, it happens as the result of one's past actions, of divine will and of other factors. Question: The present is said to be due to past Karma. Can we transcend the past Karma by our free will now? Sri Ramana Maharshi: See what the present is. If you do this you will understand what is affected by or has a past or a future, what is ever-present and always free and what remains unaffected by the past or future or by any past Karma. Question: Is there such a thing as free will? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Whose will is it? So long as there is the sense of doership, there is the sense of enjoyment and of individual will. But if this sense is lost through the practice of Vichara (self- enquiry), the divine will will act and guide the course of events. Fate is overcome by Jnana, Self-knowledge, which is beyond will and fate. Question: I can understand that the outstanding events in a man's life, such as his country, nationality, family, career or profession, marriage, death, etc., are all predestined by his Karma, but can it be that all the details of his life, down to the minutest, have already been determined? Now, for instance, I put this fan that is in my hand down on the floor here. Can it be that it was already decided that on such and such a day, at such and such an hour, I should move the fan like this and put it down here? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Certainly. Whatever this body is to do and whatever experiences it is to pass through was already decided when it came into existence. Question: What becomes then of man's freedom and responsibility for his actions? Sri Ramana Maharshi: The only freedom man has is to strive for and acquire the Jnana (knowledge) which will enable him not to identify himself with the body. The body will go through the actions rendered inevitable by Prarabdha and a man is free either to identify himself with the body and be attached to the fruits of its actions or to be detached from it and be a mere witness of its activities. Question: So free will is a myth? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Free will holds the field in association with individuality. As long as individuality lasts there is free will. All the scriptures are based on this fact and they advise directing the free will in the right channel. Find out to whom free will or destiny matters. Find out where they come from, and abide in their source. If you do this, both of them are transcended. That is the only purpose of discussing these questions. To whom do these questions arise? Find out and be at peace. Question: If what is destined to happen will happen, is there any use in prayer or effort or should we just remain idle? Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are only two ways to conquer destiny or be independent of it. One is to enquire for whom is this destiny and discover that only the ego is bound by destiny and not the Self, and that the ego is non-existent. The other way is to kill the ego by completely surrendering to the Lord, by realising one's helplessness and saying all the time, `Not I but Thou, O Lord', giving up all sense of "I" and `mine' and leaving it to the Lord to do what He likes with you. Surrender can never be regarded as complete so long as the devotee wants this or that from the Lord. True surrender is love of God for the sake of love and nothing else, not even for the sake of liberation. In other words, complete effacement of the ego is necessary to conquer destiny, whether you achieve this effacement through self-enquiry or through Bhakti Marga (path of devotion). __/\__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Thank YOU Bob...for your Sincere...reply...Trueadept , "Bob OHearn" <hrtbeat7 wrote: > > , > "trueadept" <trueadept@> wrote: > > > does it exist...or merely a concept? proofs? > > > > > "Sri Ramana regarded the law of Karma as a manifestation of God's > will. He said that prior to Self-realisation there is a personal God, > Iswara, who controls each person's destiny. It is Iswara who has > ordained that everyone must suffer the consequences of his actions > and it is Iswara who selects the sequences of activities that each > person must undergo in each lifetime. One cannot escape from Iswara's > jurisdiction while one still identifies with the activities of the > body. The only way to become free of his authority is to transcend > Karma completely by realising the Self..."from the Preamble by David > Godman > ________ > > Question: Who is the projectionist? What is the mechanism, which > selects a small portion of the Sanchita Karma (The store of Karmic > debts accumulated from previous births) and then decides that it > shall be experienced as Prarabdha Karma (That part of one's Sanchita > Karma which must be worked out in the present life.)? > > Sri Ramana Mahrshi: Individuals have to suffer their Karmas but > Iswara manages to make the best of their Karmas for his purpose. God > manipulates the fruits of Karma but he does not add or take away from > it. The subconscious of man is a warehouse of good and bad Karma. > Iswara chooses from this warehouse what he sees will best suit the > spiritual evolution at the time of each man, whether pleasant or > painful. Thus there is nothing arbitrary. > > Question: In `Upadesa Saram', you say that Karma bears fruit by the > ordinance of God (Karta). Does this mean that we reap the > consequences of Karma solely because God wills it? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: In this verse Karta (God) means Iswara. He is > the one who distributes the fruits of actions to each person > according to his Karma. That means that he is the manifest Brahman. > The real Brahman is unmanifest and without motion. It is only the > manifest Brahman that is named as Iswara. He gives the fruit to each > person according to his actions (Karma). That means that Iswara is > only an agent and that he gives wages according to the labour done. > That is all. Without this Sakti (power) of Iswara, this Karma would > not take place. That is why Karma is said to be on its own, inert. > > Questioner: The present experiences are the result of past Karma. If > we know the mistakes committed before, we can rectify them. > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one mistake is rectified there yet remains > the whole Sanchita Karma from former births which is going to give > you innumerable births. So that is not the procedure. The more you > prune a plant, the more vigorously it grows. The more you rectify > your Karma, the more it accumulates. Find the root of Karma and cut > it off. > > Question: Does the Karma theory mean that the world is the result of > action and reaction? If so, action and reaction of what? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Until realisation there will be Karma, that is > action and reaction. After realisation there will be no Karma and no > world. > > Question: If I am not the body why am I responsible for the > consequences of my good and bad actions? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: If you are not the body and do not have the > idea `I am the doer', the consequences of your good or bad actions > will not affect you. Why do you say about the actions the body > performs `I do this' or `I did that'? As long as you identify > yourself with the body like that you are affected by the consequences > of the actions, that is to say, while you identify with the body you > accumulate good and bad Karma. > > Questioner: But since I am not the body I am not really responsible > for the consequences of good or bad actions. > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: If you are not, why do you bother about the > question? > > Questioner: In some places it is stated that human effort is the > source of all strength and that it can even transcend Karma. In > others it is said that it is all divine grace. It is not clear which > of them is correct. > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes, some schools of philosophy say that there > is no God other than Karma of the previous birth, that is Karma done > in the present birth in accordance with the scriptures is known as > Purushkara (human effort), that the previous and present Karmas meet > for a head-on fight like rams and that the one that is weaker gets > eliminated. That is why these people say that one should strengthen > Purushkara. If you ask such people what the origin of Karma is, they > say that such a question is not to be raised as it is like the > eternal question, `Which is earlier, the seed or the tree?' > > Debates such as this are mere arguments, which can never arrive at > the final truth. That is why I say first find out who you are. If one > asks, `Who am I? How did I get this Dosha (fault) of life?', the `I' > will subside and one will realise the Self. If one does this properly > the idea of Dosha will be eliminated and peace will be obtained. Why > even obtained? The Self remains as it is. > > The essence of Karma is to know the truth of oneself by > enquiring `Who am I, the doer, who begins to do Karmas?' Unless the > doer of Karmas, the ego, is annihilated through enquiry, the perfect > peace of supreme bliss, which is the result of Karma Yoga, cannot be > achieved. > > Question: Can people wipe out the consequences of their bad actions > by doing Mantras or Japa (repeating God's name) or will they > necessarily have to experience them? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: If the feeling `I am doing Japa' is not there, > the bad actions committed by a man will not stick to him. If the > feeling `I am doing the Japa' is there, the consequences of bad > actions will persist. > > Question: Does the Punya (merit accumulated from virtuous acts) > extinguish Papa (demerit accumulated from sinful acts)? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: So long as the feeling `I am doing' is there, > one must experience the result of one's acts, whether they are good > or bad. How is it possible to wipe out one act with another? When the > feeling that `I am doing' is lost, nothing affects a man. Unless one > realises the Self, the feeling `I am doing' will never vanish. For > one who realises the Self where is the need for Japa? Where is the > need for Tapas (austerity)? Owing to the force of Prarabdha life goes > on, but he who has realised the Self does not wish for anything. > > Prarabdha Karma is of three categories, Ichha, Anichha and Parechha > (personally desired, without desire and due to others' desire). For > the one who has realised the Self, there is no Ichha-Prarabdha but > the two others, Anichha and Parechha, remain. Whatever a Jnani (Self- > realised) does is for others only. If there are things to be done by > him for others, he does them but the results do not affect him. > Whatever be the actions that such people do, there is no Punya and no > Papa attached to them. But they do only what is proper according to > the accepted standard of the world – nothing else. > > Those who know that what is to be experienced by them in this life is > only what is already destined in their Prarabdha will never feel > perturbed about what is to be experienced. Know that all one's > experiences will be thrust upon one whether one wills them or not. > > Question: The realised man has no further Karma. He is not bound by > his Karma. Why should he still remain within his body? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Who asks this question? Is it the realised man > or the Ajnani (ignorant)? Why should you bother what the Jnani (Self- > realised) does or why he does anything? Look after yourself. You are > now under the impression you are the body and so you think that the > Jnani also has a body. Does the Jnani say he has a body? He may look > to you as if he has a body and he may appear to be doing things with > the body, as others do, but he himself knows that he is bodiless. The > burnt rope still looks like a rope, but it can't serve as a rope if > you try to bind anything with it. A Jnani is like that – he may look > like other people, but this is only an outer appearance. So long as > one identifies oneself with the body, all this is difficult to > understand. > > That is why it is sometimes said in reply to such questions, `The > body of the Jnani will continue till the force of Prarabdha works > itself out, and after the Prarabdha is exhausted it will drop off'. > An illustration made use of in this connection is that of an arrow > already discharged which will continue to advance and strike its > target. But the truth is the Jnani has transcended all Karmas, > including the Prarabdha Karma, and he is not bound by the body or its > Karmas. > > Not even an iota of Prarabdha exists for those who uninterruptedly > attend to space of consciousness, which always shines as `I am', > which is not confined in the vast physical space, and which pervades > everywhere without limitations. Such alone is the meaning of the > ancient saying, `There is no fate for those who reach or experience > the heavens'. > > Question: If a thing comes to me without any planning or working for > it and I enjoy it, will there be no bad consequences from it? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: It is not so. Every act must have its > consequences. If anything comes your way by reason of Prarabdha, you > can't help it. If you take what comes, without any special > attachment, and without any desire for more of it or for a repetition > of it, it will not harm you by leading to further births. On the > other hand, if you enjoy it with great attachment and naturally > desire for more of it, it is bound to lead to more and more births. > > Question: According to the astrological science, predictions are made > about coming events taking into account the influence of the stars. > Is that true? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: So long as you have the feeling of egotism all > that is true. When the egotism is destroyed, even if they appear to > see they do not really see. > > Destiny is the result of past action. It concerns the body. Let the > body act as may suit it. Why are you concerned with it? Why do you > pay attention to it? Should anything happen, it happens as the result > of one's past actions, of divine will and of other factors. > > Question: The present is said to be due to past Karma. Can we > transcend the past Karma by our free will now? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: See what the present is. If you do this you will > understand what is affected by or has a past or a future, what is > ever-present and always free and what remains unaffected by the past > or future or by any past Karma. > > Question: Is there such a thing as free will? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Whose will is it? So long as there is the sense > of doership, there is the sense of enjoyment and of individual will. > But if this sense is lost through the practice of Vichara (self- > enquiry), the divine will will act and guide the course of events. > Fate is overcome by Jnana, Self-knowledge, which is beyond will and > fate. > > Question: I can understand that the outstanding events in a man's > life, such as his country, nationality, family, career or profession, > marriage, death, etc., are all predestined by his Karma, but can it > be that all the details of his life, down to the minutest, have > already been determined? Now, for instance, I put this fan that is in > my hand down on the floor here. Can it be that it was already decided > that on such and such a day, at such and such an hour, I should move > the fan like this and put it down here? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Certainly. Whatever this body is to do and > whatever experiences it is to pass through was already decided when > it came into existence. > > Question: What becomes then of man's freedom and responsibility for > his actions? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: The only freedom man has is to strive for and > acquire the Jnana (knowledge) which will enable him not to identify > himself with the body. The body will go through the actions rendered > inevitable by Prarabdha and a man is free either to identify himself > with the body and be attached to the fruits of its actions or to be > detached from it and be a mere witness of its activities. > > Question: So free will is a myth? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Free will holds the field in association with > individuality. As long as individuality lasts there is free will. All > the scriptures are based on this fact and they advise directing the > free will in the right channel. > > Find out to whom free will or destiny matters. Find out where they > come from, and abide in their source. If you do this, both of them > are transcended. That is the only purpose of discussing these > questions. To whom do these questions arise? Find out and be at peace. > > Question: If what is destined to happen will happen, is there any use > in prayer or effort or should we just remain idle? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are only two ways to conquer destiny or be > independent of it. One is to enquire for whom is this destiny and > discover that only the ego is bound by destiny and not the Self, and > that the ego is non-existent. The other way is to kill the ego by > completely surrendering to the Lord, by realising one's helplessness > and saying all the time, `Not I but Thou, O Lord', giving up all > sense of "I" and `mine' and leaving it to the Lord to do what He > likes with you. Surrender can never be regarded as complete so long > as the devotee wants this or that from the Lord. True surrender is > love of God for the sake of love and nothing else, not even for the > sake of liberation. In other words, complete effacement of the ego is > necessary to conquer destiny, whether you achieve this effacement > through self-enquiry or through Bhakti Marga (path of devotion). > > > > __/\__ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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