Shiva Tattva vs. Shakti Tattva? ( A repost )

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devi_bhakta

 

Hi Gene: One other point in your message that interested me was your

premise that "Siva Tattva is above Shakti Tattva" ... I think you'll

find that people differ on that, depending upon whether their path is

Shakta or Shaiva.

 

But this isn't so much a matter of rivalry between sects -- as you so

aptly put it, "shaivite and vaishnavite sadhakas fighting each other

bitterly, each insisting that their own ishta devata is the 'only'

true Supreme Being."

 

It's more a matter of theological perception. If Shakti is One with

Shiva and equal to Him, then how can Her Tattva be any less than His?

Are They *not* equal, then?

 

Stepping still further into the realm of pure Shakta (and here we

maybe *do* begin getting into sect rivalries -- but maybe not),

the "Devi Mahatmyam" unequivocally states that She *is* the Supreme

Brahman -- the entire Shakti-Shiva unity being itself a lesser

tattva. She is the Ocean; all other conceptions and manifestations

of God or Goddess are merely waves upon that Ocean.

 

Perhaps it's just words -- God/dess is One, who cares what we label

Her/Him/It? But still, the matter of the "heirarchy" of upper

Tattvas is one that's always intrigued me -- a tantalizing vacuum

that even Woodroffe never fully addressed (that I know of). Our

former founder Silent Soul and I were just beginning to have some

interesting discussions on this topic when he decided to depart for

greener pastures.

 

If any members would care to toss around the topic, I'd definitely

be game? We might even learn a thing or two.

 

evil_djinia

There's only a difference if you to dualism otherwise they

both are one.

 

 

aureusdeus

"One other point in your message that interested me was your premise

that "Siva Tattva is above Shakti Tattva" ..."

 

Hi devi_bhakta, I kinda knew that it was only a matter of time

before someone called me to qualify on that. :-) One reason I adore

the trika shaivite philosophy is its equanimity towards all sects'

personal ishta devata preferences... The 36 tattvas in trika saivism

detail the downward evolution of the Supreme Being's initial desire

to manifest the world. Before the emergence of these tattvas, the

Unmanifested Supreme Being is One by Himself, the One without a

Second. For Trika Shaivites, this Supreme Being is denoted as

ParamaShiva/Sivam. However, it is accepted that this Supreme Being

can also correspond to the highest ideal, cherished by other sects,

of their isha devata --- be it Maha-Vishnu, Supreme Devi, Krishna,

Surya, etc... If Supreme Devi is the cherished ideal, then She is

that Supreme Being - the *One without a Second*. She is not to be

mistaken with Shakti Tattva, which is produced from Her own Being.

 

Thus, in Trika, the Shiva and Shakti tattvas emerge as a result of

the Supreme Being's desire to manifest the world. As you rightly

observed, Shiva and Shakti tattvas are inseparable - equal to each

other; the co-creators and co-maintainers of the manifested world.

This is the ultimate understanding the enlightened bhakta has towards

these two tattvas.

 

However, for the bhakta who is still struggling to leave samsara and

reach Moksha, the Shiva tattva is in the provisional sense, "higher"

than Shakti tattva. This is because Shiva tattva is Motionless Divine

Consciousness; Non-Samsara, whilst Shakti tattva is that

Consciousness in perpetual motion which churns up Samsara...

 

Thus, only in this sense can Shiva tattva be considered higher than

Shakti tattva. For his Moksha, the weary trika bhakta who is flailing

in samsara MUST first discover, and then rest in, Shiva tattva.

However, when he attains this blessed stage, he realizes the

inseparable unity of Shiva & Shakti tattvas and he begins to see Lord

Shiva in all movements of the manifested world (spanda-shakti). He

then attains perfect ease and freedom in abiding in the samsaric

manifested world too, because he realizes that it is only Divine

Shakti's movement/play.

 

For the highly-realized trika shaivites, taking on future

reincarnations in this world - for the sole purpose of helping others

to Moksha - is not a bondage at all, because for them this "ugly"

world is the most beautiful, most gracious Supreme DEVI.

 

Om Namah Shivaya!

Om Dum Durgayai Namaha!

 

 

devi_bhakta

 

Thanks Gene! What a clear, simple presentation of a theology that is

too often obscured in a fog of mystical language.

 

You wrote, "She is not to be mistaken with Shakti Tattva, which is

produced from Her own Being." So is it fair to say, then, that even

the highest Tattva is already part of that "downward evolution" into

the manifest universe? And that Brahman -- however one conceives it,

as you rightly noted -- is perhaps the static background, remaining

outside the descent of tattvas?

 

BTW, I'm not entirely happy with my tern, "static background" – a

physical science term that I sometimes use to describe Shiva's role

in the Shakti-Shiva Unity. As with electricity, kinetic activity

cannot "happen" without a static ground. Add that to Tantra's

dictate, "What is here is everywhere, what is not here is nowhere" --

and I figured it was a valid microcosmic illustration of macrocosmic

Reality.

 

Material manifestation of that Reality begins with the division of

Parabindu into Bindu, Nada and Bija (which correspond to moon-sun-

fire/ tamas-sattva-rajas/ Shiva-Vishnu-Brahma/ etc) which continue to

unfold into increasingly gross matter, eventually becoming the world

we see (and otherwise sense) around us.

 

But moving backward, above Parabindu we have Nada (or to distinguish

it from lower Nada, Paranada). Above Nada, there is Shakti, and –

as

you point out -- above Shakti in this scheme is Shiva. Beyond Shiva,

there is nothing -- or there is Everything.

 

Because, as you eloquently note, "the Shiva tattva is [only] in the

provisional sense 'higher' than Shakti tattva. This is because Shiva

tattva is Motionless Divine Consciousness ... whilst Shakti tattva is

that Consciousness in perpetual motion which churns up Samsara... "

 

So is Brahman -- or however we conceive Supreme Reality -- beyond

the Tattva scheme entirely? Or does Shiva in that scheme represent

Brahman, a term interchangeable with any devotee's conception of that

Supreme Reality?

 

Sorry to be so wonky -- it's a matter of great interest to me. Again,

Gene, thank you for your beautiful exposition on this topic.

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

 

 

aureusdeus

G'day, devi_bhakta! "You wrote, "She is not to be mistaken with

Shakti Tattva, which is

produced from Her own Being." So is it fair to say, then, that even

the highest Tattva is already part of that "downward evolution" into

the manifest universe?"

 

Yes. For the trika saivite, the 36 tattvas are already the gross,

spent energies of the Supreme One. Trika scriptures like

Isvarapratyabhijna and Spandakarika detail this "downward" de-

evolutionary spiral and posit ParamaShiva as the Supreme One who is

the source of and controller of these tattvas - from the first

(Shiva) down to the last (Prthivi) - and who yet remains

apart/unmoved by their operation.

 

Sri Krishna's lines in the Gita: "I am the Father of this world, I am

the Mother of this world" & "I support this world with only a mere

fragment of my being" also illustrates the same concept: that the

Shiva and Shakti tattvas are but tiny constituents in the

unfathomably great ocean that is the One Supreme Being. (NB: this is

how trika saivism interprets those lines from the Gita. Sectarian

Vaishnavites, for whom Saivagama is hardly the apple of their eyes,

may well disagree.)

 

It has to be said here that ParamaShiva and Shiva tattva (in the

trika system) are quite different from Rudra-Shiva; the personal

ishta devata with the trident and damaru. The latter is what we, as

embodied beings with gross senses, perceive of the Supreme Being when

He is covered by Shakti's mayic veil - when Her veil is comprised

primarily of Tamasic energy.

 

Likewise, the personal ishtas Vishnu and Brahma are the limited

perspectives we hold of that One Supreme Being; when He is veiled by

Shakti Maya's sattvic and rajasic energies respectively. The supreme

Brahman (or ParamaShiva or MahaVishnu or Supreme Devi, depending on

one's preferences) is bereft of any form perceptible to our gross

senses. Maya, herself part of the Supreme One's tattvas, can never

actually limit Him to a particularized form.

 

"And that Brahman -- however one conceives it, as you rightly noted -

- is perhaps the static background, remaining outside the descent of

tattvas?"

 

You know, devi_bhakta, your "static background" conjures up those

hissing background noises I hear on my old cassette-tapes. :-)

 

YES. I prefer to think of Brahman and His tattvas as being akin to

galaxial space(Brahman) and all the stars, suns, planetary matter in

that limiteless space (tattvas). Space, in itself is nothing, but

without it, the suns, planets and other galactic matter cannot exist

or evolve either. Thus, this "nothingness" does not denote impotence

or emptiness --- its very omnipotence lies in its power to contain

within itself all the galaxies, and yet remain untouched by any

adverse changes in the galactic systems.

 

However, that is just a limited analogy too. The Supreme One cannot

be reduced to a thought in our sense-embedded minds. Trika saivism

holds that, in order to fully appreciate the grandeur of the Supreme

One, the aspirant must reach the first tattva (Shiva). And that is

done when nirvikalpa samadhi is achieved. This is the state where all

vikalpas (THOUGHTS) and samkaras are permanently destroyed during

intense meditation.

 

Thus, the very act of trying to fit Brahman/ParamaShiva into our

thoughts in our attempts to comprehend Him, is actually the act of

distancing ourselves further from realizing him experientially. It

just suffices to know or intuit that the Greatest One lies even

beyond the Shiva&Shakti tattvas.

 

OM Namo Mahadevaaya

gene

 

adi_shakthi16

*****it just suffices to know or intuit that the Greatest One lies

even beyond the Shiva&Shakti tattvwas*** gene, may i add something to

this lively discussion, if you would permit me please.... the

svetashvatara upanishads declare ....

 

This whole world the illusion maker projects out of this [brahman].

And in it by illusion the other is confined. Now, one should know

that Nature is illusion, And that the Mighty Lord is the illusion

maker. here is a mention of that mother of all illusions

*****MAYA**** itself.

 

read between the lines... This whole world the illusion-maker

(mayeshwera -krishna or whoever ) projects out of this (Brahman).

(the ultimate reality)

 

And in it by illusion (maya) the other is confined"

 

Brahman "projects itself as the world," but "anyone who mistakes the

projection, the creation, for Reality, for Brahman, is suffering from

ignorance"( So this projection is called maya, and to mistake it for

Brahman is ***ignorance*** or avidya. maya is the "illusion"

(appearance), the phenomenal world, but it is also Brahman's (the

illusion-maker's or mayin's) projection or power.

 

In this sense the "whole world" is "confined" in "illusion" (meaning

appearance). This concept of maya, then, seems to be the key to

making sense of the Upanishadic idea that the phemomenmal world and

the gods are just "aspects" of Ultimate Reality. If appearance is a

projection of Brahman, it establishes the exact link and relationship

between Brahman and all aspects of phenomenal reality.

 

gene, as you may be aware all sr vidya upasakas or upasikas use the

svetashvatara upanishads as their bible and followers of sri vidya

upasana are samyanis who believe in the equality of shiva and

shakti ! but, of course we will talk about 'tripura rahasay' later

once this basic undrstanding is established.

 

Hsri om tat sat!

thanks once again for making this forum a 'place of joy and ecstasy'

 

love