Totapuri and Sri Ramakrishna -- question

[Guest guest]

OM Yeshe

 

Most of us believe that we live in a phenomenal universe of

separate entities in time and space. We believe this because

our senses and our linear reason tell us so . But our senses are

limited in what they can tell us. Our senses, nervous system,

and brain are constructed in such a way that the universe,

Brahman's Lila, registers in a certain way in us. Our eyes, etc tell

us that there are separate objects. But our eyes are limited. They

have a very narrow threshold. Do we see x-rays and gamma

rays? Our ears have a very narrow threshold. Do we hear a dog

whistle? In addition, our limited senses are often flawed. We

resort to eye glasses, hearing aids, etc. Plus, our reason is often

flawed. That is why we have a science of Logic. And

psychiatrysts to help us deal with our delusions and

hallucinations. But reason has it limits. Science tells us that

objects are not solid but are energy. Our senses are such that

we are able to `know' energy only in certain ways and,

sometimes, not very well in those ways. We are not able to use

the senses and our reason to know all energies or to know an

energy in its totality. We only know energy as it appears to us.

 

But some, have been able to develop other, more intuitive and

more all-encompassing ways to knowing. Ways that transcend

time and space, karma, and the laws of science. Like Kali,

these people have destroyed Raga-Dvesha and slain time and

space. They have stepped outside of their supposed limits and

have a true understanding of who they are, what the world is and

what Brahman is. They did these things through intense,

personal effort and through the grace of God and Guru. They

know Brahman, they know they are Brahman, they know the Lila

of Brahman, they know the Lila of Brahman is Brahman. They

know Brahman as fom and as formlessness. They identify with

Brahman. They do not identify with how the Lila of Brahman is

perceived by an aspect (our senses and reason) of that Lila.

 

You ask how one can break out of `this human life and our

actions and the karmic results'. And you often talk about moving

beyond labels. But you lock yourself into the world of labels with

your insistence on reason. And, you deny yourself the one way to

move beyond the phenomenal world when you downgrade the

importance of meditation. You are correct when you say that

`Meditational tools alone do not do the job.' But the only other

things that are required are purification of mind and body, a

burning desire for Moksha, and the grace of God and Guru.

Meditation is essential for Moksha. There are waking

meditations as you go through your daily life.These are practiced

by the Bhakti, Jnana and Karma Yogin(i)s. And there are the

formal sitting meditations of Raja Yoga to develop the

all-encompassing perspective that you are looking for.

 

Swami Sivananda says of meditation: "Leading a virtuous life is

not, by itself, sufficient for God-realisation. Concentration of mind

is absolutely essential.

 

"Without the help of meditation, you cannot attain Knowledge of

the Self. Without its aid, you cannot grow into the divine state.

Without it, you cannot liberate yourself from the trammels of the

mind and attain immortality.

 

"Meditation is the only royal road to the attainment of salvation or

Moksha. It is a mysterious ladder which reaches from earth to

heaven, from error to truth, from darkness to light, from pain to

bliss, from restlessness to abiding peace, from ignorance to

knowledge. From mortality to immortality.

 

"Meditation is the keeping up of an unceasing flow of

God-consciousness. All worldly thoughts are shut out of the

mind. The mind is filled or saturated with divine thoughts, divine

glory, and divine presence.

 

"Forget the body. Forget the surroundings. Forgetting is the

highest Sadhana."

 

He also says, "Man is God in disguise who puts on a garb in fun,

but quickly forgets his true identity. Desire drags him down.

Discrimination lifts him up.

 

"Man evolved is God. God involved in man. God in bondage is

man, and man free from bondage is God. A deluded, ignorant

man is worldly. A perfect man is God.

 

"Truth is not outside you. It is within you. It dwells in the cave of

your heart. You are a truth of God, a work of God, a will of God.

You are unfettered, free, eternally free. You are Nitya-mukta

Atman. Roar OM. Come out of the cage of flesh and roam about

freely.

 

Swami Sivananda agrees with Sri Ramakrishna and says, "Maya

binds the Jiva through Avidya or ignorance and frees him through

Vidya or knowledge. She is both Avidya and Vidya. Avidya Maha

takes you down the path of bondage and is characterised by lust,

anger, greed, pride, hatred, etc. The Vidya Maya takes you on the

path of liberation and is characterised by discrimination,

dispassion, devotion."

 

"Maya is manifest in the human individual as mind. Mind alone is

Maya. Maya is only mind. Control of mind is control of Maya.

Control of Maya is control of mind. Maya plays through mind.

Maya havocs through mind.

 

"Maya exists as the cause of perception of the manifoldness of

the universe, but in truth, it has no reality. It is also an

appearance like the appearances which it causes. It cannot be

said to exist, nor can it be said not to exist. It is the false cause of

the seeming appearances. One cannot say what exactly it is. It is

inscrutable or indeterminate.

 

"Maya is neither true nor false. It is truly false and falsely true. It is =

 

neither real nor unreal. It is not real like Brahman, because it

disappears when one gets Knowledge. It is not unreal because

its presence is felt.

 

"This Maya is a sort of jugglery. You are astonished so long as

the juggles is not seen. As soon as the juggler is known, the

results are known to be unreal; the wonder ceases at once.

When you realise Brahman, the wonder of Maya's working

vanishes. You come to know that what inspired wonder is

unreal.

 

"Even so, you are all hypnotised by Maya and Avidya and you take

this unreal world as a solid reality. De-hypnotise yourself by

getting Knowledge of Brahman. Then alone you will understand

the grand jugglery of Maya.

 

"Absence of light is darkness. Darkness is not a real entity.

Darkness has a negative existence. So Maya has a negative

existence. When light is brought, darkness vanishes. Similarly,

when Knowledge comes, Maya disappears."

 

Swami Sivananda also had some advice for

Sadhakas/Sadhikas on their spiritual journey: "At every step,

Maya puts a veil. Do not think that you will have to break only one

veil at the last stage of Sadhana. Maya puts countless veils:

attachment, pride, jealousy, hatred, greed, sexual instincts,

impulses and urges, the five Koshas, running after Siddhis,

false contentment in Sadhana, clouded understanding,

grossness of intellect, are all forms of her veil. If you are a little

carelss and non-vigilant, she puts veil after veil. You have to

encounter countless veils all of which have to be torn down.

 

So, Yeshe, you commented, "I have found this paradox to be true

that Maya and Brahman are the same thing. But how to truly

"believe" this is the question asked." You correctly pointed to "the

history of religion and the story of saints" as one way to have faith

in that statement. Also, personal experience with deities serves

a guide. (Mantras have form-producing qualities as well as

formless-producing qualities).

 

And, yes, "truly the faith and insight developed during our journey

as Shakti Bhakti is of great and true value." They give us the

hints that we are on the right path. It is these experiences that

keep all of us going. It was these experiences that kept Sri

Ramakrishna going toward Brahman. But these are not enough.

One must continue to move past names and forms, no matter

how divine they seem. Sometimes it is difficult to let go of

seemingly divine phenomena because it seems one is letting

go of Maa and being set adrift. These are false attachments and

false reasonings created by Maya to keep you within Maya.

 

If you look to stories of saints for inspiration, you should also

look to their urgings to go deeply within, to move constantly past

names and forms, to let go of attachment to the senses and

conventional reason, to develop super consciousness, and to

know Satchidananda.

 

OM Namah Sivaya

 

Omprem

 

 

 

 

, "yeshe_o" <HZ813@a...> wrote:

> , "omprem" <omprem> wrote:

>

>

> >Just as we are not to entertain ourselves with thoughts of the

> phenomena of our daily life when meditating, so, too, are we

not

> to cling to the phenomena encountered during meditation.

>

> Both of those types of phenomena are traps of Maya, some

> pleasant, some not, but all traps none the less. As long as

there

> is content of any sort in one's mind, one has not come to

> Brahman.<

>

> Hello: omprem and everyone!

> Jai Mahakali!!!!

>

> I have read the story of Sri Ramakrishna and his fortunate

encounter

> with Totapuri. I have had many impressions develop in my

practice

> because of this story. Sri Ramakrishna was the one who

introduced me

> to the possibility of Maa and encountering the Supreme. The

core,

> before meeting him in my studies, of my search was who am I

or what

> am I looking for? What is the truth? Sri Ramakrishna held out

that

> the truth can be in many and any form or formless. So to me

the

> challenge was to open my practice, mind and heart to this

approach as

> he had. So his encounter with Totapuri was a pivotal one and

one

> that re-focused for me the meaning of what I was looking for. I

take

> his encounter for my practice to mean he and I are looking for

our

> true Self ---- which can come in many forms and can be

formless at

> the same time.

>

> I enjoyed the comments about the content of the Maya delusion

of this

> saha world. I have found this paradox to be true that Maya and

> Brahman are the same thing. But how to truly "believe" this is

the

> question asked. With in this human life and our actions and

the

> karmic results we find a need to "work" through our

understanding of

> the present life we live. We need to move past the point of the

> labels we encounter for different events and experiences we

have in

> this life experience. But my question has been, how to break

this

> pattern or cycle of experience and truly find what is behind it all

--

> - what makes up the fabric of this life and the universe ---

where is

> this longing for understanding, love, knowledge, union leading

too

> and where did it come from?

>

> The answer apparently from history of religion and the stories

of

> saints lives has been one of the use of expedients. The use

> of "faith" in something out side of our selves and dual to

ourselves

> that helps in bringing the focus back to finding the answer

within

> ourselves where our true self, Maa and the Universe is hidden

from

> the conventional reality we live within.

>

> When Ramakrishna was experiencing Maa that was his

reference point of

> reality. He "saw" her with his mind's eye. He responded to her

and

> she to him though physical changes, emotions, sound,

actions. But

> when Totapuri, finally after waiting for Ramakrishna to see the

true

> reality without success cut into Sri Ramakrishna's forehead

literally

> with the piece of glass where his third eye is to be found,

Totapuri

> was actually instructing him to move past the label and

experiences

> Ramakrishna had assigned to his experiences thus far, with

the true

> self and its union with the Brahman. Once Ramakrishna had

been able

> to use the physical pain, the vison its self of Maa and the

> meditation visualization to cut through this label he had

assigned to

> his experience of Brahman --- his experience of the universe

and

> union --- then Sri Ramakrishna was able to become Brahman

and no

> longer live with in the duality of this world.

>

> So I believe instead of any one feeling that imagination and

> meditational techniques are merely tools for training the mind

and

> the efforts of turning the mind inward. Or that Maa, the physical

> experiences and faith derived from a devotion to Maa is merely

a

> technique of imagination or meditation. That truly the faith and

> insight developed during our journey as Shakti Bhakti is of

great and

> true value. Meditational tools alone do not do the job. Sitting

with

> an object of meditation for hours does not cut through the Maya

> delusions of this conventional reality we live in. This practice

may

> make the mind clearer, but clearer as to what and in relation to

> what? It is that real connection with Maa --- combining faith,

Maya,

> and the shadow of reality that is forming the result of our

> liberation and enlightenment. I feel that these things are a

mystery

> of the journey and far more meaningful and powerful than

being a prop

> or lie we practice daily. I guess I am writing this to voice what I

> have struggled with as to approach and the development of

faith and

> the development of the idea that there is a universe that is

hidden

> from me due to my delusions, labels, karma and the nature of

the

> universe as Maya. And that this universe is pushing to have

union

> with me as I am and this union is the brightness of light of all

that

> I hope for. I see the shadow of this union in front of me ---- now

I

> must turn my head and see the origin and find the shadow

gone which

> was me and this world.

>

> I pursue the faith that Sri Ramakrishna had in Maa and I

pursue the

> pure union he found with in his faith journey with Maa into the

> reality we all seek. The story of this encounter with Totapuri

can

> seem anti-climatic, as if Sri Ramakrishna for so long had been

purely

> delusional in his love for Maa and his encounters with Maa and

his

> service for Maa. But he was not because he was moving out of

the

> shadows into the light of reality within his love and practice. He

> was able to use conventional reasoning to break the cycle of

Maya and

> delusion and find "Maa" and find "himself" and find "the reality

of

> union with all created and uncreated". I just wanted to say this

from

> a fellow journeyer and practitioner's point of view. I am not a

> learned person just one wanting great faith and devotion to

lead me

> to Maa --- a vision of her and a cutting away of this conventional

> world from my true self --- then I hope with that, if not in this

> life time in the next, I am able to help other beings do the

same. I

> hope I have not offended any one by my words here or caused

any

> misunderstandings --- just my thoughts, experiences and

findings so

> far within my journey and path.

>

> with palms together

> Yeshe