Guest guest Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 HI KALIKA AND UDAY, thanks, exactly. that is what is meant by going beyond names and forms... from stage one of apara bhakti (idol worship) graduate to the next step of para bhakti (realizing the self) ... but this is not easy, it is a steb by step climb and as has been rightly mentioned by uday, such a climb is only possible through the grace of a guru... jai gurudeva! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 "such a climb is only possible through the grace of a guru... " Buddha reached enlightment, I wonder does he have a guru? Does anyone knows about this? Om ParaShaktiye Namaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 So did Ramana maharishi. - nora55_1999 Friday, April 26, 2002 4:56 PM Re: GOING BEYOND NAMES AND FORMS.... "such a climb is only possible through the grace of a guru... "Buddha reached enlightment, I wonder does he have a guru? Does anyone knows about this?Om ParaShaktiye NamahaTo from this group, send an email to:shakti_sadhnaaYour use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 seeing your true nature (kensho) is possible for anyone who goes beyond name and form.. where name and form is, is cognition (Gautama) love, sphurna , "Seshadri" <dksesh@h...> wrote: > So did Ramana maharishi. > > - > nora55_1999 > > Friday, April 26, 2002 4:56 PM > Re: GOING BEYOND NAMES AND FORMS.... > > > "such a climb is only possible through the grace of a guru... " > > Buddha reached enlightment, I wonder does he have a guru? Does anyone > knows about this? > > > Om ParaShaktiye Namaha > > > > > > shakti_sadhnaa- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 OM Nora In addition to the name of the Buddha's Guru, we could also ask what level of enlightenment he reached. Considering that he advocates staying in the present moment, one could say that he did not transcend time and space and therefore had some way still to go toward true enlightenment. Perhaps it is this latter part of the journey for which he required but did not have a Guru. Also, does enlightenment in his case entail a knower and a known, the one who is enlightened and that about which he is enlightened? If this duality is so, he was not fully enlightened. I'd be interested in proposed answers to these questions. OM Namah Sivaya Omprem , "nora55_1999" <nora55_1999> wrote: > "such a climb is only possible through the grace of a guru... " > > Buddha reached enlightment, I wonder does he have a guru? Does anyone > knows about this? > > > Om ParaShaktiye Namaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 I would like to add a question in which case, if duality does not mean enlightenment, does that mean bhakthi marga which relies on duality is not a true path? Does that mean that people following bhakthi must take up some form of advaithic janma to realise themselves? Or is it bhakthi provides moksha/samaadhi etc in which case, non-duality or duality does not really matter? I think it does not really matter, because the lord is best experienced, be it as bhakthi ananda or yoga ananda or gnana ananda or someananda that buddha must have realised. MHO. I would appreciate your inputs. Regards, Seshadri. - omprem Friday, April 26, 2002 8:01 PM Re: GOING BEYOND NAMES AND FORMS.... OM NoraIn addition to the name of the Buddha's Guru, we could also ask what level of enlightenment he reached. Considering that he advocates staying in the present moment, one could say that he did not transcend time and space and therefore had some way still to go toward true enlightenment. Perhaps it is this latter part of the journey for which he required but did not have a Guru.Also, does enlightenment in his case entail a knower and a known, the one who is enlightened and that about which he is enlightened? If this duality is so, he was not fully enlightened.I'd be interested in proposed answers to these questions.OM Namah SivayaOmprem, "nora55_1999" <nora55_1999> wrote:> "such a climb is only possible through the grace of a guru... "> > Buddha reached enlightment, I wonder does he have a guru? Does anyone > knows about this?> > > Om ParaShaktiye NamahaTo from this group, send an email to:shakti_sadhnaaYour use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 dear sesh, since you have mentioned our beloved shri ramana in this discussion involving Guru, let me clarify certain points... please read shri ramana's views on this subject... "I have not said that a Guru is not necessary. But a Guru need not always be in human form. First a person thinks that he is an inferior and that there is a superior, all-knowing, all powerful God who controls his own and the world's destiny and worships him or does Bhakti. When he reaches a certain stage and becomes fit for enlightenment, the same God whom he was worshipping comes as Guru and leads him on. That Guru comes only to tell him 'That God is within yourself. Dive within and realize'. God, Guru and the Self are the same." so, our omprem can testify to this - once a person is self-realized , he /she knows that God, guru and the same - THAT IS THE HALLMARK OF A JNANI or atma-jnani. simliarly , who is such a self-realized person? it is not about knowing or becoming anything... If one is self-realized, he/she is the self which he/she has always been- such a state can not be described. he/she is that!! tattwamasi!! (the mahavakya of chandogya upanishads) again, Sri Maharshi did say that a Guru was necessary.**** He also said that the Guru may not be external, as in his case.**** Again, upon his physical demise he said that he was not leaving, as he was never identified with the body; meaning, he is present even now. The truth is that no one can give us liberation. The way can be pointed out, directions can be given. Our intense earnestness and total dedication to the goal is the most essential factor. If we become obsessed with this one thing—realizing Truth—Truth, a physical Guru (if necessary) and all else will be drawn to us automatically. The Guru will come to us when we are ready. We simply need to attend to making ourselves ready and the rest is automatic. sesh, many people believe that hri ramana was the incarnation of shri dakshinamurthy. so was adi shankara. now who was shri dakshinamurthy- he wa believed be to the incarnation of lord shiva ... so now do you think all these people needed a guru? they were born on this earth to lead people like you and me on the spiritual path....so god comes in human form as gurus! shri ramana or shri adi shankara incarnated in human form to be our gurus... i hope this helps... love Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 Ya, Its right that only we have to become ready, but my dear friend, can a pupil of school pass without getting training from teacher ? can any one even learn to drive a cycle, or scooter or car without any teacher ? can any girl learn to make food without training of her mother or anybody else ? Kabirji says " sahajo karya sansar ko, guru bin hot nahi, Hari to guru bin kya mile, samajh le man mahi" It is very correct that when we reach to the utmost stage, Guru comes himself, but to reach uptill that stage, guidance of guru is necessary. Ya, one can do at his own.... but it will take time to reach without guidance of guru, because 'Mann' is very naughty.....its plays are very tricky. one cannot differentiate whether he is doing sadhana or Mann is playing his own tricks..... so i believe the necessity of guru the first priority. Uday. --- adi_shakthi16 <adi_shakthi16 wrote: <HR> <html><body> <tt> dear sesh, <BR> <BR> since you have mentioned our beloved shri ramana in this discussion <BR> involving Guru, let me clarify certain points...<BR> <BR> please read shri ramana's views on this subject...<BR> <BR> "I have not said that a Guru is not necessary. But a Guru need not <BR> always be in human form. First a person thinks that he is an inferior <BR> and that there is a superior, all-knowing, all powerful God who <BR> controls his own and the world's destiny and worships him or does <BR> Bhakti. When he reaches a certain stage and becomes fit for <BR> enlightenment, the same God whom he was worshipping comes as Guru and <BR> leads him on. That Guru comes only to tell him 'That God is within <BR> yourself. Dive within and realize'. God, Guru and the Self are the <BR> same." <BR> <BR> so, our omprem can testify to this - once a person is self-realized , <BR> he /she knows that God, guru and the same - THAT IS THE HALLMARK OF A <BR> JNANI or atma-jnani. <BR> <BR> simliarly , who is such a self-realized person? it is not about <BR> knowing or becoming anything... If one is self-realized, he/she is <BR> the self which he/she has always been- such a state can not be <BR> described. he/she is that!! tattwamasi!! (the mahavakya of chandogya <BR> upanishads) <BR> <BR> again, Sri Maharshi did say that a Guru was necessary.**** He also <BR> said that the Guru may not be external, as in his case.**** Again, <BR> upon his physical demise he said that he was not leaving, as he was <BR> never identified with the body; meaning, he is present even now.<BR> <BR> The truth is that no one can give us liberation. The way can be <BR> pointed out, directions can be given. Our intense earnestness and <BR> total dedication to the goal is the most essential factor. If we <BR> become obsessed with this one thing—realizing Truth—Truth, a physical <BR> Guru (if necessary) and all else will be drawn to us automatically. <BR> The Guru will come to us when we are ready. We simply need to attend <BR> to making ourselves ready and the rest is automatic. <BR> <BR> sesh, many people believe that hri ramana was the incarnation of shri <BR> dakshinamurthy. so was adi shankara. now who was shri dakshinamurthy- <BR> he wa believed be to the incarnation of lord shiva ... so now do you <BR> think all these people needed a guru? they were born on this earth to <BR> lead people like you and me on the spiritual path....so god comes in <BR> human form as gurus! shri ramana or shri adi shankara incarnated in <BR> human form to be our gurus... <BR> <BR> i hope this helps... <BR> <BR> love <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> </tt> <br> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b> Sponsor</b></font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF> <td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacaaing=0> <tr> <td align=center><font face=arial size=-2></font><br><a href="http://rd./M=178320.2025945.3499726.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705075\ 991:HM/A=1026420/R=0/*http://www.fastweb.com/ib/-76f"><img src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/fa/fastweb/new-300x250.gif" alt="" width="300" height="250" border="0"></a></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1 src="http://us.adserver./l?M=178320.2025945.3499726.1261774/D=egroupmai\ l/S=1705075991:HM/A=1026420/rand=109240116"></td></tr> </table> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <br> <tt> <BR> of Service</a>.</tt> </br> </body></html> ______________________ For live cricket scores download Score Tracker at: http://in.sports./cricket/tracker.html''>http://in.sports./cricket/tracker.html'>http://in.sports./cricket/tracker.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 yes, udayji, we are all saying basically the same thing in different words.... I am myself a dance teacher who teaches dance - so how can i i say that you can learn something without the help of a teacher? in fact , i live in usa where for everything you have a guru - so much so, they even have a 'gadget' guru? do you think all the great sports who make it to the olympics etc or tennis stars who make it to the wimbeldon etc did not have a teacher of some sorts? but i still insist one has to be physically and emotionally ready to receive a guru's grace!!! for example, if a two year old girl comes to my dance class to learn dance, can i make her stand still even for one second... the girl has to be at least five years old before i can start teaching her the tehniques... so in spiritual sadhana, one has to be emotionally ready- the 'yearning' and the 'longing' should be there - then the guru automatically appears!! but our nora has asked us a question did Buddha have a guru ? people like Buddha do not 'technically' need external gurus. For, it is believed at least by Hindus that Buddha is an incarnation of LORD VISHNU? and the lord incarnates on earth from time to time to establish 'dharma' as the srimad bhagvat gita says... So, A GREAT SAINT like Buddha WHO KNOWS THE ART OF MEDITATING ON THE 'SELF' already knows that 'self, guru and god are one and the same. Buddha himself was the guru. It is lesser mortals like us who need 'gurus' and more 'gurus' because of our past samskaras and karmas..... "Tat viddhi pranipatena pariprashnena savayaa, upadekshyanti tatvadarshinah". (GITA-CHAPTER IV-VERSE34) Surrender to the Guru, offer salutations to Him, question Him in all manner possible, serve Him --this is the art of Guruseva. This is the technique of acquiring knowledge from the Guru. what a powerdul verse from the bhagvat gita. a commercial attitude may be paying elsewhere but never in the realm of acquring divine knowledge. the relationship between a shisya (student) and a gurudeva (spiritual master) is very sacred- the disciple always approaches his master in a reverential attitude - that is why we always add the suffix *deva *to Guru- because Guru is god himself. Mata , pita , acharya devO bhavaha- mother father and guru are to be respected and revered as gods. Our mother gives us birth but it is our guru who gives us ***spiritual birth****. SO, ONE MUST ALWAYS PROSTRATE BEFORE THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AS A MARK OF RESPECT . BUT, this does not mean that the disciple cannot ask questions from his master -the disciple should not engaze in 'KUTARKA' (meaning arguing in a fighting manner) but rather approach the guru in a submissive manner and clarify his doubts. VINAYA BHAVA - an aprroach marked by humility and surrender ... the disciple should dedicate his body, mind and soul in the service of the guru. the spiritual master in turn shows compassion and kindness while instructing the disciple- the GURU HAS NO ULTERIOR MOTIVE -all that the guru desires is to guide the disciple on the path of enlightenment. " of what avail are prayer and devotion to an aspirant who views his master as a mere human being? the disciple ought not to hold the master as a man. before getting the vision of the deity , the novice sees the form of the guru as a preliminary. - the form metamorphoses into the deity. the disciple thereby understands that GOD AND GURU ARE ONE AND THE SAME . THE MASTER AWAKENS THE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS IN HIM. MORE THAN THAT THE GURU LEADS THE INITIATED (DISCIPLE) INTO BRAHMAN ITSELF.If the aspirant is earnest about spiritual enlightenment the LORD sees to it that he comes in contact with an enlightened one.Seek AND thE ****LIGHT**** is sent to you! " RAMAKRISHNA PARAMAHAMSA jai gurudeva!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 OM Adi Shakti You are right when you say, "who is such a self-realized person? it is not about knowing or becoming anything... If one is self-realized, he/she is the self which he/she has always been- such a state can not be described. he/she is that!! tattwamasi!!" You are also right when you say, "We simply need to make ourselves ready the rest is automatic." The purpose of sadhana is to remove self-imposed obstacles to knowing our true Self. But recognizing those obstacles as such and then removing them is not so simple a task. Our egos will trick us continually. The ignorance arising from relying on the senses and linear reasoning will trick us continually. Raga-dvesha will lure us from the process of uncovering these obstacles. Love of life itself will get in the way of uncovering these obstacles. Yes, one can eventually go through this process all by themselves over many lifetimes. But, so can the person who is not on the spiritual path and who, over many lifetimes, simply exhausts all desires through giving into them and noticing their insubstantiability . We can even simply wait for Maha Pralaya when all become enlightened. The Guru is for the person who is not content to wallow in Samsara any longer and wants to find a way to transcend it to know his/her true Self. When that person makes himself/herself sufficiently purified and aware, a Guru or the grace of God will take them the rest of the way. The danger of relying on an internal Guru is that one cannot be sure if it is (1) the inner Guru speaking or (2) an Asura or (3) the ego that has been make stronger and more resplendent by the acquistion of a few prana experiences or siddhis or (4) the hallucinations of a weak mind that has been warped by Kundalini. All the scriptures tell us to move beyond these meditional phenomena and siddhis because they are traps. Remember that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Kundalin is an absolute power and it can destroy aspirant without the guidance of a Guru. For the aspirant who has diligently worked on himself/herself over a long period of time and removed most of the self-imposed obstacles, the Guru may be needed for only a short time maybe even only minutes in order to establish that the aspirant is indeed ready and able to receive Saktipat. But for the properly prepared aspirant to reach that stage is not so simple. The result is indeed automatic at that stage in that the Guru will appear, perhaps even in the form of an internal Guru whom the prepared aspirant will be able to recognize as legitimate and the aspirant will be guided the rest of the way to Self-Realization. OM Namah Sivaya Omprem , "adi_shakthi16" <adi_shakthi16> wrote: > dear sesh, > > since you have mentioned our beloved shri ramana in this discussion > involving Guru, let me clarify certain points... > > please read shri ramana's views on this subject... > > "I have not said that a Guru is not necessary. But a Guru need not > always be in human form. First a person thinks that he is an inferior > and that there is a superior, all-knowing, all powerful God who > controls his own and the world's destiny and worships him or does > Bhakti. When he reaches a certain stage and becomes fit for > enlightenment, the same God whom he was worshipping comes as Guru and > leads him on. That Guru comes only to tell him 'That God is within > yourself. Dive within and realize'. God, Guru and the Self are the > same." > > so, our omprem can testify to this - once a person is self-realized , > he /she knows that God, guru and the same - THAT IS THE HALLMARK OF A > JNANI or atma-jnani. > > simliarly , who is such a self-realized person? it is not about > knowing or becoming anything... If one is self-realized, he/she is > the self which he/she has always been- such a state can not be > described. he/she is that!! tattwamasi!! (the mahavakya of chandogya > upanishads) > > again, Sri Maharshi did say that a Guru was necessary.**** He also > said that the Guru may not be external, as in his case.**** Again, > upon his physical demise he said that he was not leaving, as he was > never identified with the body; meaning, he is present even now. > > The truth is that no one can give us liberation. The way can be > pointed out, directions can be given. Our intense earnestness and > total dedication to the goal is the most essential factor. If we > become obsessed with this one thing—realizing Truth—Truth, a physical > Guru (if necessary) and all else will be drawn to us automatically. > The Guru will come to us when we are ready. who is such a self-realized person? it is not about > knowing or becoming anything... If one is self-realized, he/she is > the self which he/she has always been- such a state can not be > described. he/she is that!! tattwamasi!! > > sesh, many people believe that hri ramana was the incarnation of shri > dakshinamurthy. so was adi shankara. now who was shri dakshinamurthy- > he wa believed be to the incarnation of lord shiva ... so now do you > think all these people needed a guru? they were born on this earth to > lead people like you and me on the spiritual path....so god comes in > human form as gurus! shri ramana or shri adi shankara incarnated in > human form to be our gurus... > > i hope this helps... > > love Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 Dear friend, you are right to the point and the mark...... it is ofcourse, that shishya should have adhikar or yogyata to grasp guru's teachings. even duryodhana and shakuni did darshan of shri krishna and even arjuna did it.... but when krishna recited geeta, only after arjuna surrendered him......"yat ichasi tat kuru...." I will do as you say.... uptill then he looked krishna as a sakha, friend.... arjuna listened to krishna and thus became adhikari, hence we should also "tat viddhi pranipaten....." go to the gurus, and humbly bow to them and ask questions..... By the way, can I ask your name and who is your guru ? Will you please reply me, because the answer given by you is saying of a shishya, none other can understand it.... Regards... uday --- adi_shakthi16 <adi_shakthi16 wrote: <HR> <html><body> <tt> yes, udayji, we are all saying basically the same thing in different <BR> words.... I am myself a dance teacher who teaches dance - so how can <BR> i i say that you can learn something without the help of a teacher? <BR> in fact , i live in usa where for everything you have a guru - so <BR> much so, they even have a 'gadget' guru? do you think all the great <BR> sports who make it to the olympics etc or tennis stars who make it to <BR> the wimbeldon etc did not have a teacher of some sorts? but i still <BR> insist one has to be physically and emotionally ready to receive a <BR> guru's grace!!! for example, if a two year old girl comes to my <BR> dance class to learn dance, can i make her stand still even for one <BR> second... the girl has to be at least five years old before i can <BR> start teaching her the tehniques... so in spiritual sadhana, one has <BR> to be emotionally ready- the 'yearning' and the 'longing' should be <BR> there - then the guru automatically appears!! <BR> <BR> but our nora has asked us a question did Buddha have a guru ? people <BR> like Buddha do not 'technically' need external gurus. For, it is <BR> believed at least by Hindus that Buddha is an incarnation of LORD <BR> VISHNU? and the lord incarnates on earth from time to time to <BR> establish 'dharma' as the srimad bhagvat gita says... So, A GREAT <BR> SAINT like Buddha WHO KNOWS THE ART OF MEDITATING ON THE 'SELF' <BR> already knows that 'self, guru and god are one and the same. Buddha <BR> himself was the guru. <BR> It is lesser mortals like us who need 'gurus' and more 'gurus' <BR> because of our past samskaras and karmas..... <BR> <BR> "Tat viddhi pranipatena pariprashnena savayaa,<BR> upadekshyanti tatvadarshinah". (GITA-CHAPTER<BR> IV-VERSE34)<BR> <BR> Surrender to the Guru, offer salutations to Him, question<BR> Him in all manner possible, serve Him --this is the<BR> art of Guruseva.<BR> <BR> This is the technique of acquiring<BR> knowledge from the Guru.<BR> <BR> what a powerdul verse from the bhagvat gita. a commercial attitude may<BR> be paying elsewhere but never in the realm of acquring divine <BR> knowledge.<BR> <BR> the relationship between a shisya (student) and a gurudeva (spiritual<BR> master) is very sacred- the disciple always approaches<BR> his master in a reverential attitude - that is why we<BR> always add the suffix *deva *to Guru- because Guru is<BR> god himself. Mata , pita , acharya devO bhavaha-<BR> mother father and guru are to be respected and revered<BR> as gods. Our mother gives us birth but it is our<BR> guru who gives us ***spiritual birth****. SO, ONE MUST<BR> ALWAYS PROSTRATE BEFORE THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AS A MARK<BR> OF RESPECT . <BR> <BR> BUT, this does not mean that the disciple cannot ask questions from <BR> his master -the disciple should not engaze in 'KUTARKA' (meaning<BR> arguing in a fighting manner) but rather approach the<BR> guru in a submissive manner and clarify his doubts.<BR> VINAYA BHAVA - an aprroach marked by humility and<BR> surrender ... the disciple should dedicate his body, mind<BR> and soul in the service of the guru. <BR> <BR> the spiritual master in turn shows compassion and kindness<BR> while instructing the disciple- the GURU HAS NO<BR> ULTERIOR MOTIVE -all that the guru desires is to guide the<BR> disciple on the path of enlightenment. <BR> <BR> " of what avail are prayer and devotion to an aspirant who views<BR> his master as a mere human being? the disciple ought<BR> not to hold the master as a man. before getting the<BR> vision of the deity , the novice sees the form of the<BR> guru as a preliminary. - the form metamorphoses into<BR> the deity. the disciple thereby understands that GOD<BR> AND GURU ARE ONE AND THE SAME . THE MASTER AWAKENS<BR> THE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS IN HIM. MORE THAN THAT<BR> THE GURU LEADS THE INITIATED (DISCIPLE) INTO BRAHMAN<BR> ITSELF.If the aspirant is earnest about<BR> spiritual enlightenment the LORD sees to it that he comes<BR> in contact with an enlightened one.Seek AND<BR> thE ****LIGHT**** is sent to you! "<BR> <BR> RAMAKRISHNA PARAMAHAMSA <BR> <BR> jai gurudeva!!! <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> </tt> <br> <tt> <BR> of Service</a>.</tt> </br> </body></html> ______________________ For live cricket scores download Score Tracker at: http://in.sports./cricket/tracker.html''>http://in.sports./cricket/tracker.html'>http://in.sports./cricket/tracker.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 dear udayji, I have been continuously learning and relearning from all sources all throughtout my life - from scriptures, from people who have come into my life (young and old ) and experience itself has been a great teacher... my life changed dramatically when i met a great brahmajnani on the web two years ago - he is from the shri ramakrishna lineage- he was a great tantrik but also well versed in all types of sadhana... before his mahasamadhi in november of 1999, he initiated by me by the power of his thought and gave me bija mantra - but above all , he taught me the greatest bija mantras of all times- that is 'LOVE' - i have never been the same since.... well, i have still have lot of obstacles to overcome and vrittis to conquer - so, it is a great challenge - i keep trying though... i fall only t get up again... but seriously, i have learned from many people all around me- they are all upagurus .... dattatreya lists 24 upagurus but i have ountlesss upagurus... to name only a few, ompremji, babaji, yogaji, devi_bhakta (for his total egolessness ) , collin, chumki , nora , jkala, harshanand , sankar, kirk , swami vittala.... ...... and now you!!!! in fact, if i have left out anyone, forgive me.... the list is too long.... in fact, i am still learning from all !!!! just as the guru must have qualifications , so too the shisya... a a flame can be used to burn something ( a book or a an object) or it can be used to light another candle - so the fault is not of the flame that it can burn something - the fault is the use to which we put the flame... i loved the way you gave the example of krishna and duroyodana and arjuna!!! while approaching a guru, humility is very important - we have to surrender our 'ego' -- but as long as we think we 'know' everything there is no room for further learning.... real knowledge or true enlightment is knowing 'i am that' - tattwamasi or aham bramhasmi or prajnanan brahma !!!! i will leave you with this story i read... Once while roaming India, as required of a sanyassi, swami vivekananda came to a Devi temple cave that had been ransacked by the muslims during their conquest. He was sad and thought had he been there at that time he would have laid down his life to save the temple. Soon he fell asleep and dreamt the Devi saying "Do I protect you or do you protect me?" Things became crystal clear to Swamiji. the bhava of 'surrender' (charanagati) is important! this was the bhava of exalted devotees like Prahlad, Hanuman etc.... love shakti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 Dear friend, Thanks for your warm regards, but i would like to say that I am not that big to become someone's guru or upaguru. I am also a disciple/devotee of some great guru. A question arises in my mind, that you had written that you met your guru on web, is that means on website or internet ? can you please share your spiritual experiences in guru's presence and some of others of your guru ? Please .......... Uday. --- adi_shakthi16 <adi_shakthi16 wrote: <HR> <html><body> <tt> dear udayji, <BR> <BR> I have been continuously learning and relearning from all sources all <BR> throughtout my life - from scriptures, from people who have come into <BR> my life (young and old ) and experience itself has been a great <BR> teacher... <BR> <BR> my life changed dramatically when i met a great brahmajnani on the <BR> web two years ago - he is from the shri ramakrishna lineage- he was a <BR> great tantrik but also well versed in all types of sadhana... before <BR> his mahasamadhi in november of 1999, he initiated by me by the power <BR> of his thought and gave me bija mantra - but above all , he taught me <BR> the greatest bija mantras of all times- that is 'LOVE' - i have never <BR> been the same since.... well, i have still have lot of obstacles to <BR> overcome and vrittis to conquer - so, it is a great challenge - i <BR> keep trying though... i fall only t get up again... <BR> <BR> but seriously, i have learned from many people all around me- they <BR> are all upagurus .... dattatreya lists 24 upagurus but i have <BR> ountlesss upagurus... to name only a few, ompremji, babaji, yogaji, <BR> devi_bhakta (for his total egolessness ) , collin, chumki , nora , <BR> jkala, harshanand , sankar, kirk , swami vittala.... ...... and now <BR> you!!!! in fact, if i have left out anyone, forgive me.... the list <BR> is too long.... in fact, i am still learning from all !!!! <BR> <BR> just as the guru must have qualifications , so too the shisya... a <BR> <BR> a flame can be used to burn something ( a book or a an object) or it <BR> can be used to light another candle - so the fault is not of the <BR> flame that it can burn something - the fault is the use to which we <BR> put the flame... i loved the way you gave the example of krishna and <BR> duroyodana and arjuna!!! <BR> <BR> while approaching a guru, humility is very important - we have to <BR> surrender our 'ego' -- but as long as we think we 'know' everything <BR> there is no room for further learning.... real knowledge or true <BR> enlightment is knowing 'i am that' - tattwamasi or aham bramhasmi or <BR> prajnanan brahma !!!! <BR> <BR> i will leave you with this story i read... <BR> <BR> Once while roaming India, as required of a sanyassi, swami <BR> vivekananda came to a Devi temple cave that had been ransacked by the <BR> muslims during their conquest. He was sad and thought had he<BR> been there at that time he would have laid down his life to save the <BR> temple. Soon he fell asleep and dreamt the Devi saying "Do I protect <BR> you or do you protect me?" Things became crystal clear to<BR> Swamiji. the bhava of 'surrender' (charanagati) is important! this <BR> was the bhava of exalted devotees like Prahlad, Hanuman etc.... <BR> <BR> love <BR> <BR> shakti <BR> <BR> <BR> </tt> <br> <tt> <BR> of Service</a>.</tt> </br> </body></html> ______________________ For live cricket scores download Score Tracker at: http://in.sports./cricket/tracker.html''>http://in.sports./cricket/tracker.html'>http://in.sports./cricket/tracker.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 Dear udayji, i met him on the web site.... in fact, you are already a member of the group 'bhramanshakti' which is actually a tribute to our gurudeva... really speaking, i cannot openly talk about my spriritual expereiences publicly as it is someyhing that can not be discudssed openly - part of guru-shisya confedentiality... but you know the story of swami VivekanANANDA and shri Ramakrishna- swami vivekananda was very eager to experience the state of bliss that shti ramakrishna was in... so swamiji kept on insisting that shri ramakrishna should share this with him- so, one day, shri ramakrishna consented and gave swami vivekananda a 'sparsha' diksha or by a 'touch' and swamiji had the most wonderful experience .. but swamiji could not retain that experoence - shri ramakrishna said to him, "Don't depend on my touch every time. Now you know there is something beyond; work it out yourself." but, swami vivekananda gad to struggle for many years before he could that experience again... YES, shri ramakrishna helped swamiji to have a taste of a sweet candy called 'sporitual bliss' ! " The Scriptures say that there are three aids to realize the Truth: the Scriptures themselves, the Guru, and your spiritual practice. The Scriptures tell you that sugar is sweet. The Guru will show you that sugar. Your practice will give you the taste. The Guru will not put the sugar in his mouth and say, "It is very sweet. You have to taste it yourself. Even if you open your mouth and he puts the sugar in, if your tongue is totally coated, you can't taste it. It will be bitter to you. So you have to clean your tastebuds. That is the reason we say the disciple must be fit to know the taste." so, udayji - ultimately, it is our daily practice that determines our progress in the spiritual path. guru just shows us the way. we have to work hard at this sadhana. it is no means easy. maya, the temptress, is always blocking your way... but, one thing my gurudeva taught me -" every day is a miracle. live every moment like it is your last moment." the source of divinity is within!!! love Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2002 Report Share Posted April 29, 2002 I agree to most of your points maa. There is a fine line in a necessity to be self aware consciously and a acut= e devotion. Its my trust that when a person is complete, then it does not ma= tter if he is a bhaktha or a gnani or a yogi, they will all know the same tr= uth. I completely agree with you that we need a guru and the lord i always our g= uru. << The truth is that no one can give us liberation. The way can be > pointed out, directions can be given. Our intense earnestness and > total dedication to the goal is the most essential factor. If we > become obsessed with this one thing—realizing Truth—Truth, a physical > Guru (if necessary) and all else will be drawn to us automatically. > The Guru will come to us when we are ready. We simply need to attend > to making ourselves ready and the rest is automatic. >> Its also my belief that the lord will kindle the fire of love and affection= and thereby bring everything to us. Its not that we have to be ready with a= sense of I, its that we will be made ready with a sense of 'him'. Apologies= if I misunderstood you maa on your message earlier. Regarding your last topic, usually when a saint has performed great deeds w= e associate the person to the lord. Its also a fact that even saints and non= -saints who live all the while are balso the same shiva . A businessman from= whom we buy things, a taxi driver who drives us to places and also a police= man who monitors and helps traffic and sometimes gives us tickets are also = the same Shiva. The saints have always been saying the same thing that everything is lord a= nd this is also proved in puranas like Narasimha avatara. where the message = is explicit. So to me, Ramanamaharishi is just as much of shiva as you are or Ompremji i= s or SS is or nora is or anyone as a matter of fact and anything. This also = includes my pencil, my pen, my telephone, the office, the colleagues the foo= d and etc. :-) Which is the reason why I asked is advaithik state of mind is a necessity f= or enlightenment. :-) Love talking with you maa. - Seshadri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2002 Report Share Posted April 29, 2002 I agree to most of your points maa. There is a fine line in a necessity to be self aware consciously and a acut= e devotion. Its my trust that when a person is complete, then it does not ma= tter if he is a bhaktha or a gnani or a yogi, they will all know the same tr= uth. I completely agree with you that we need a guru and the lord i always our g= uru. << The truth is that no one can give us liberation. The way can be > pointed out, directions can be given. Our intense earnestness and > total dedication to the goal is the most essential factor. If we > become obsessed with this one thing—realizing Truth—Truth, a physical > Guru (if necessary) and all else will be drawn to us automatically. > The Guru will come to us when we are ready. We simply need to attend > to making ourselves ready and the rest is automatic. >> Its also my belief that the lord will kindle the fire of love and affection= and thereby bring everything to us. Its not that we have to be ready with a= sense of I, its that we will be made ready with a sense of 'him'. Apologies= if I misunderstood you maa on your message earlier. Regarding your last topic, usually when a saint has performed great deeds w= e associate the person to the lord. Its also a fact that even saints and non= -saints who live all the while are balso the same shiva . A businessman from= whom we buy things, a taxi driver who drives us to places and also a police= man who monitors and helps traffic and sometimes gives us tickets are also = the same Shiva. The saints have always been saying the same thing that everything is lord a= nd this is also proved in puranas like Narasimha avatara. where the message = is explicit. So to me, Ramanamaharishi is just as much of shiva as you are or Ompremji i= s or SS is or nora is or anyone as a matter of fact and anything. This also = includes my pencil, my pen, my telephone, the office, the colleagues the foo= d and etc. :-) Which is the reason why I asked is advaithik state of mind is a necessity f= or enlightenment. :-) Love talking with you maa. - Seshadri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2002 Report Share Posted April 29, 2002 dearest sesh, between a mother and a son -there are no formalities. please do not apologize. we are on the samelength. we are also on the same page. being a vaishnava, you have np problem accepting 'everuthing is shiva' and being a shaivite i have no problem accepting 'vasudevam sarvam iti.' - that is everything is krishna... but as you have rightly pointed out when 'bhakti' becoes a 'cult; then all problems start- like this is my 'hare krishna' or this is 'my kali' or this is 'my shiva' etc... when the my is there , how can there be shiva , krishna or kali because you and i agree that in both bhakti and jnana - 'i' nss should disappear and be replaced by the absolute!!! when i say when we are ready , it does not mean the physical body or heart - it means a state of preparedness...gOD IS NOT ABSENT FROM OUR BODY TO ENTER -HE/SHE is already there - what i mean is to realize this internal guru (god/ess) we need an external guru1!! the reason why shri ramanadid not need an external guru was he already was far more evolved than you , me or anyone else ! btw, shri rama was a jnani and a bhakta - when he attained samadhi, they found a sri chakra in his loin clth! who else but adevotee of the divine mother could be blessed thus? what i am trying to say is it is all ok to say everything is 'shiva' and everything is visnu and everything is shakti... but in reality, we ordinary mortals do get angry when muslims go to destroy a hindu temple or hindus go and burma mosque!! because if we sincerely believed everything is cosciousness what doe it matter? then mosques and temples should be the same!!! so, dear sesh there are these unresolved issues in the human mind!! that is the sad part.... otherwise, we will not be fightinng about whether this god is superior or this form of deity shuld have obnly four hands etc!!! today is monday, an auspicious day to sing the glories of shiva... here i would like to share something with you.. Rudra,( ANOTHER NAME FOR SHIVA) derived from the meanings of its roots namely ru, to cry or to teach, rud, to make a person weep, and dra to flow. Hence rudra is considered as a deity who teaches the supreme knowledge to all; Another meaning is he who causes persons to cry since they cannot keep up with his demands for perfection. Still another meaning is he whose energy flows in everything. SO, why would God make you weep - it is simply because he wants us to 'yearn' for him ; long for him' cry for him. only when this longing and yearning is there god will manifest in the form of human guru!!! well. sesh- Bhakti and jnana are not a matter of semantics - Bhakti is simply a state of being and so is jnana ! so for apara bhakti to mature into para bhakti (which is the same as jnana) we do need a GURU!!! otherwise, we will all be like six blind men trying to describe what an elephant looks like ; each one is correct. the elephant does have big ears; . elephant is very tall etc; elephant has a tail etc. but all animals that have big ears are elephants? ' all animals that have tails are elephants? are all animals that are tall are elephants! well, sesh- gotta to go- getting very late for work.... ciy ayou soon... thanks for a very lively discussion... om namaha shivaye!!! love and take care, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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