Does the Goddess ever question Herself?

[Guest guest]

Are there any Hindu texts that reflect introspection on the part of

the Goddess?

 

Particularly, are there any texts in which She examines Her great

passion, great power, great potential or actual destructiveness?

 

Also, here we have posted an image of a "Widow" Goddess. In my

tradition also we have images and metaphors of the Goddess as

bereaved. I'm wondering if it is even possible to have a concept of

the Goddess as childless. Is there a childless Goddess?

 

I appreciate all of the learned discussions in this forum. the current

discussions have been just a little over my head, but interesting

nonetheless. I have enjoyed them.

 

Namaste,

 

prainbow

[Guest guest]

Devi Bhagavata Purana

Hello Devi Bhakta!

Jai Mahakali!!!!

Could you recommend an author and ISBN number for this text? Presently

I have "The Sri Mad Devi Bhagavatam" translated by Swami Vijnanananda

- but wanted to look at a different translation for the text. I am

assuming these two titles are the same text? I had a hard time

finding this one and I was told it could be found a the Vedanta Press

http://www.vedanta.com/

but I could find neither title. Do you have a suggested author, publisher or link for this text?

Thank you so much again!

with palms together

Yeshe

[Guest guest]

Dear Prainbow:

 

Thanks you for your post; I am glad you're enjoying the current

discussions. You mention that they are "just a little over my head";

do please feel free to request any clarifications that may help. I

would hope that any and all members who are interested in our Group's

discussions will not hesitate to make whatever inquiries are necessary

to help them more fully understand Shakti Sadhana.

 

As for your specific questions, I'll toss out some preliminary

observations and let those who have additional knowledge either

correct me, or add whatever they can:

 

*** Are there any Hindu texts that reflect introspection on the part

of the Goddess? ***

 

None that I know of. I imagine that what you're thinking of is

episodes such as in the Jewish Torah, when God regrets having wiped

out most of Earth's life forms in the Flood; or in the Christian

Gospels, where Jesus, on the eve of his arrest, becomes extremely

afraid and questions whether he's really cut out for his role ("Take

this cup from my lips," etc). Such scenes are to be expected in a

dualistic religion where the human is here, and God is a separate and

infinitely superior Being "out there."

 

In the Hindu scriptures, however, it's rare for Deities to question

themselves. Understand that, in the Hindu conception, the Deity is a

gateway to or facet of Brahman, who is at once the thinker, the

thought and the act of thinking. The Deity understands and embodies

this central Truth, and so is usually engaged in helping a human being

or some lesser divinity to grasp it. Perhaps the most famous model is

the great dialog between Krishna (God) and Arjuna (human, or perhaps

lesser divinity) that makes up the "Bhagavad Gita": Arjuna is the only

one given to introspection and self-doubt. Krishna is instructing him

(as Hindu deities always do) that such acts and emotions are merely

the symptom and result of failing to understand that we are all part

of the One Brahman, and that all is well.

 

*** Particularly, are there any texts in which She examines Her great

passion, great power, great potential or actual destructiveness? ***

 

Well, you recently mentioned reading the Devi Mahatmyam. There, as

you've probably noticed, one will find precious little analysis of Her

power, let alone introspection. There is really not even an attempt to

"convince" the reader/listener that She is Supreme; it is simply

assumed and taken for granted. She is what She is, and She does what

She does. She is the embodiment of the forces of the Universe (some of

which you list above), not the *possessor* of such powers -- and so

these are not characteristics to question or examine, they are what

She is.

 

The Devi Bhagavata Purana might offer slightly more of what you're

looking for. It *does* want to convince you that Devi is the Supreme

Deity you want and need. It retells the legends of the DM in their

entirety, not once but twice, always hammering away at (a) Her

Supremacy; (b) Her Femininity; and © why the reader/listener is

crazy is they don't drop everything and immediately become Her

devotee. These glosses offer some suggestion of why She is a better

object of worship than Her male counterparts -- primarily, because She

is wiser, more compassionate, more forgiving, and more powerful.

 

But still, the overall narrative style attributed to Devi Herself is

more one of distinctly unsubtle *telling* ("None is greater than me!"

etc.), accompanied by unsubtle *showing* (chopping up demons, etc).

For this, we need blame neither Shakti nor the Shaktas: Holy

scriptures in general -- in part due to the times and places in which

they were composed, and in part due to their intrinsic nature -- tend

not to be subtle or introspective. They tend to simply illustrate and

reinforce a belief system: "X" deity is best, and here's why.

 

On the other hand, human commentaries upon the great Shakta scriptures

do attribute human emotional characteristics to Devi, not surprisingly

those which are traditionally associated with the Feminine: love,

empathy, compassion, etc. NOTE: Remember, I am simply speaking from my

own studies and research. It's entirely possible that other members

may be able to refer you to material such as you seek.

 

*** Also, here we have posted an image of a "Widow" Goddess. In my

tradition also we have images and metaphors of the Goddess as

bereaved. I'm wondering if it is even possible to have a concept of

the Goddess as childless. Is there a childless Goddess? ***

 

I will try to post something today on some of the more useful Hindu

interpretations of Dhumavati, as seen from a modern perspective.

Again, the fact that Dhumavati is a widow is usually given a

metaphysical explanation rather than an emotional one. But the

Mahavidyas are Goddesses who contain tremendous depths: They bring

Goddess traditions from all over India together into a single sadhana;

collectively they represent perhaps the fullest conception of the

Goddess ever devised by humanity; they symbolize the seeker's

spiritual evolution; they symbolize Creation's cosmic evolution (the

shifting of gunas, etc.); they symbolize the phases and trials in the

lives of human women; and on and on. The more one meditates upon them,

the more they reveal -- that's why they're called the "Wisdon

Goddesses." It is truly staggering.

 

As to your final question: Strangely enough, the Goddess is both

always childless and never childless. In one sense, She is the

Creative Principle, the Mother of all that is Manifest and Unmanifest

-- you and I and everything in the Universe are her children. But this

aspect is almost always abstract -- except in the case of Aditi (who

is sometimes shown giving birth, sometimes to a human form, sometimes

to stars and planets) and possibly Lajja Gauri (who is shown in a

birthing position, sometimes with sagging stomach flesh that suggests

we're seeing a moment immediately after birth has been given). The

Goddess is never actually shown as or said to be pregnant. When She

gives birth in the Hindu legends, it is invariably by some

unconventional means -- such as Parvati's creation of Her son Ganesh

from the dead skin and sludge left over from scrubbing herself in the

bath. In addition, many Goddess forms are said to be virgins. Perhaps

related is the fact that Shaktism does not predicate its reverence for

women and the feminine on actual motherhood or biological fertility:

 

"All women embody Shakti. … [Every woman] is the goddess, that is, the

incarnation of the living, present, ultimate cosmic energy, although

she may be unaware of it. … Her mystery lies in the *creative powers*

with her. … That fantastic creative dynamism -- which gives rise to

atoms and galaxies, makes wheat sprout and bacteria proliferate -- is

present and active at all times (not only during pregnancy, and

whether the ovum is fertile or not) in all women; in all females."

(Van Lysebeth, André, "Tantra: The Cult of the Feminine," Samuel

Weiser Inc, 1995. Translation of "Tantra: le culte de la Féminité,

1992).

 

Well, that's a start, at least. I hope you find it somewhat useful.

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

paulie rainbow wrote:

>Are there any Hindu texts that reflect introspection on the part of

>the Goddess?

>

>Particularly, are there any texts in which She examines Her great

>passion, great power, great potential or actual destructiveness?

 

Namaste.

 

Did you know about the Puranic myth in which Parvati does yogic work in

order to transform herself from dark to golden? There's a well know version

of this in the Skanda Purana, and the story is also found in the Kalika

Purana. Parvati's initial darkness has assocations with _tamas_, and with

destructive and self-destructive power.

 

In the Kalika Purana, both Shiva and Shakti are transformed by the their

relationship. She becomes golden, and he moves beyond his aversion to

passion.

 

Kali's tongue is sometimes interpreted as a sign of embarrassed

self-consciousness on the part of the Goddess. Swami Swahananda (of the Sri

Ramakrishna order) writes:

 

"She is represented with a protruding tongue which is bitten by the

teeth... The Divine Power is as if ashamed because of Her restlessness in

creating the universe in spite of Her transcendent nature and hence Kali

bites her tongue..."

 

(from the book _Hindu Symbology and Other Essays_, Sri Ramakrishna Math,

Madras, 1987)

 

Om Shantih,

Colin

[Guest guest]

Greetings Collin,

 

I did miss your presence in this satsangha. Welcome back!

 

yes, collin, there are as many legends and myths as there aRe

gods/goddesses!!

 

in one version, there is an incident where Shiva and Parvati were

once playing around in Kailasha, and shiva teased his wife by

addressing her as 'kali, kali' the dark one-

 

it is believed Brahma made a deliberate decision to make parvati

dark complexioned because he did not want the world to know that

Sati was being reincarnated as Parvati.

 

OF COURSE, Parvati was deeply offended that her husband SHIVA

should TEASE HER for the dark color of her skin so AS sensitive as

women are PARVATI left Kailasha and told Shiva that she would not

meet him again till she acquired a golden complexion! shiva regretted

but it was too late!!

 

Parvati who was adept in the art of penance and prayed to lord

Brahma, the creator. WHEN lord brahma appeared before her, she

requested that she be reincarnated as a beautiful woman with a golden

complexion.... Lord brahma granted her the boon and Parvati

incarnated as GAURI, the golden complexioned one.

 

"Gauri represents purity and austerity."

 

Sita, the consort of Lord Rama, had worshipped Gauri to fulfill her

desire to marry Lord Rama.

 

Unmarried girls in india worship Gauri in order to get virtuous and

pious Husbands like lord shiva.

 

 

Sarva Mangala Mangalye

Shive Sarvartha Sadhike

Sharanye Tryambake Gauri

Narayani Namostute

Narayani Namostute

Narayani Namostute

 

O Parvati, you who makes all desires possible

the most auspicious of the auspicious

My refuge, Gauri, Tryambaka ,

I solute to You

I solute to you

I solute to you.

 

**********************************************************************

 

CoLLin, do you think 'black' represnts passion or 'tamas' but in the

case of our goddess kali and krishna ... black represents

the 'infinite' , i would think!!!

 

Is kali, my mother really black?

the naked one, of blackest hue,

who lights the lotus of the Heart.? SINGS SHRI RAMAKRISHNA ALL THE

TIME!

 

Dear collin, i would like you to elaborate on the metaphysical

aspects of Mother kali's blackness- behind that terrifying form is

indeed a very benevelent goddess, the saviour! is she passionate or

compassionate? the one who takes away your ego and fills you with

brahma-jnana?

 

collin, i am waiting for your response on kali-tattwa.

 

love and only love

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

Thank you for your kind reply. Honestly I was not thinking of Judeo

Christian texts at the time. In my tradition we have myths that

reflect the changing seasons. In mid winter, one of those stories is

about the Goddess who lost her consort at the time of the harvest,

sacrificed that life may continue. She, as the sun, has wandered

south in Her grief, slowly withdrawing from Her people. At the winter

solstice people come together, share food and light candles and

celebrate Her love, which has drawn them to eachother. The Goddess,

who hears everything has Her attention drawn back north to where Her

people have gathered together. She sees the bright candles and the

good food and the love that Her people share. This begins a healing

joy in Her heart and She turns around and begins Her journey back.

 

This brief retelling of a part of a cycle of myths is more of what I

am thinking. The Goddess experiences sacrifice and grief and

introspection. Our ceremonies celebrate, not only the change in

seasons but the passages of human life, as She gives something up,

grieves and moves on, so do we.

> *** Are there any Hindu texts that reflect introspection on the

part

> of the Goddess? ***

>

> None that I know of. I imagine that what you're thinking of is

> episodes such as in the Jewish Torah, when God regrets having wiped

> out most of Earth's life forms in the Flood; or in the Christian

> Gospels, where Jesus, on the eve of his arrest, becomes extremely

> afraid and questions whether he's really cut out for his role

("Take

> this cup from my lips," etc). Such scenes are to be expected in a

> dualistic religion where the human is here, and God is a separate

and

> infinitely superior Being "out there."

>

> In the Hindu scriptures, however, it's rare for Deities to question

> themselves. Understand that, in the Hindu conception, the Deity is

a

> gateway to or facet of Brahman, who is at once the thinker, the

> thought and the act of thinking. The Deity understands and embodies

> this central Truth, and so is usually engaged in helping a human

being

> or some lesser divinity to grasp it.

>

> *** Particularly, are there any texts in which She examines Her

great

> passion, great power, great potential or actual destructiveness? ***

>

> Well, you recently mentioned reading the Devi Mahatmyam. There, as

> you've probably noticed, one will find precious little analysis of

Her

> power, let alone introspection. There is really not even an attempt

to

> "convince" the reader/listener that She is Supreme; it is simply

> assumed and taken for granted. She is what She is, and She does

what

> She does. She is the embodiment of the forces of the Universe (some

of

> which you list above), not the *possessor* of such powers -- and so

> these are not characteristics to question or examine, they are what

> She is.

>

> The Devi Bhagavata Purana might offer slightly more of what you're

> looking for. It *does* want to convince you that Devi is the

Supreme

> Deity you want and need. It retells the legends of the DM in their

> entirety, not once but twice, always hammering away at (a) Her

> Supremacy; (b) Her Femininity; and © why the reader/listener is

> crazy is they don't drop everything and immediately become Her

> devotee. These glosses offer some suggestion of why She is a better

> object of worship than Her male counterparts -- primarily, because

She

> is wiser, more compassionate, more forgiving, and more powerful.

>

> But still, the overall narrative style attributed to Devi Herself

is

> more one of distinctly unsubtle *telling* ("None is greater than

me!"

> etc.), accompanied by unsubtle *showing* (chopping up demons, etc).

> For this, we need blame neither Shakti nor the Shaktas: Holy

> scriptures in general -- in part due to the times and places in

which

> they were composed, and in part due to their intrinsic nature --

tend

> not to be subtle or introspective. They tend to simply illustrate

and

> reinforce a belief system: "X" deity is best, and here's why.

>

> On the other hand, human commentaries upon the great Shakta

scriptures

> do attribute human emotional characteristics to Devi, not

surprisingly

> those which are traditionally associated with the Feminine: love,

> empathy, compassion, etc. NOTE: Remember, I am simply speaking from

my

> own studies and research. It's entirely possible that other members

> may be able to refer you to material such as you seek.

[Guest guest]

Dear Prainbow:

 

I mentioned the work of Stone and Eisler in my post to Colin; from

them, I have also learned something of your great conception of

Goddess as Inanna. You note that your post wasn't informed by

Christian myth, but it is interesting (as these authors have

developed) to see how much your tradition informed Christian myth!

 

What do you call this tradition today? I know that you are interested

in exploring Hindu Shaktism to help add an extra dimension to your

devotion for Inanna. Please do feel free to post observations from

your own tradition, if you wish, as it seems likely that such

an "interdisciplinary" study would be useful to all of us.

 

The brief tale you related in your post is extremely beautiful - "The

Goddess experiences sacrifice and grief and introspection. Our

ceremonies celebrate, not only the change in seasons but the passages

of human life, as She gives something up, grieves and moves on, so do

we." I for one would be interested in seeing more.

 

While the high metaphysics of the Shiva-Shakti Unity makes for an

interesting debate, we indulge at the expense of much of what makes

Shaktism "human" -- the myths that help people to get through the

daily trials and tribulations of life, the visions of beauty and

inspiration that Her devotees celebrate, whether individually or in

gatherings of every size.

 

In Christianity, there is the "Trinity" known as the Father, the Son,

and the Holy Spirit. In Hinduism, the closest parallel might lie in

Vaishnavism, where the loving, endearingly "human-like" Krishna

corresponds to Jesus; the more distant, heavenly Vishnu is the

Father; and the Holy Spirit -- without form or attribute -- is

Brahman.

 

The Holy Spirit, like Brahman, may be the highest goal of the

spiritual seeker. But neither ever provided concrete inspiration for

the artist, the musician, or architect, to create the images, hymns,

cathedrals and temples that draw the earthbound soul ever closer to

That which is Eternal. To get from the ground to the highest floor,

one requires a stairway or elevator, providing solid ground along the

way. For most mere humans, a single mighty leap, straight to the top,

is impossible.

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

Dear Adi_Shakthi,

 

Greetings.

>CoLLin, do you think 'black' represnts passion or 'tamas' but in the

>case of our goddess kali and krishna ... black represents

>the 'infinite' , i would think!!!

>Is kali, my mother really black?

>the naked one, of blackest hue,

>who lights the lotus of the Heart.? SINGS SHRI RAMAKRISHNA ALL THE

>TIME!

>Dear collin, i would like you to elaborate on the metaphysical

>aspects of Mother kali's blackness- behind that terrifying form is

>indeed a very benevelent goddess, the saviour! is she passionate or

>compassionate? the one who takes away your ego and fills you with

>brahma-jnana?

>collin, i am waiting for your response on kali-tattwa.

>love and only love

 

Kali Devi is at once dark and radiant because she is the Goddess of the

depths and the heights.

 

Black or dark blue suggest deep places -- the ocean, the earth, the tomb,

the womb. Radiant light suggests the sky, the sun, the heavens.

 

Kali is both descent and ascent, moha and vidya.

 

According to Sri Ramaskrishna, even tamas can bring us closer to the

divine. He speaks of tamasic devotion, meaning a burning, passionate

longing for realization -- the sort of longing he himself experienced

before he had his first vision of Kali.

 

In the story of Parvati, when Siva mentions her blackness and calls her

"kali" she is gripped by the dangerous passion of anger. Yet her anger

becomes a burning desire to make herself golden.

 

The road to the heights begins in the depths.

 

Love,

Colin.