The first guru

[Guest guest]

I'm a little overwhelmed by the density of the guru threads. However,

it *has* been very interesting and lively.

 

I found myself thinking, "what about the first guru?"

 

Who was the first guru? Is it always a lineage thing? Do fresh gurus

ever pop up without the benefit of prior gurus or incarnated deities?

 

Since my faith is supposed to be a living faith and I find that my

contemporaries sometimes seem to overvalue "ancient" things, I

sometimes consult an image in my mind.

 

She is a young woman on the bank of a river in Ireland, long, long

ago. She is one of the first witches and she is at that moment who

she will become even though she is not yet fully realized. She will,

in her lifetime, uncover and pass along a wealth of knowledge.

Therefore I know that she is intelligent, in tune, even inspired. She

lives in a world so full of life, with so few people that all is open

to her.

 

When I think of her, I know that she is looking to the future, not to

the past. She is creating rituals to suit current purposes and to

serve living people. She is reading the present and understanding it

fully.

 

I place myself on that river bank and I feel her passion, her

inquisitiveness and her dedication. I know that these things are the

foundation of a faith that will serve the future.

 

I know that I have to have that same passion, inquisitiveness and

dedication and I must live now, neither ignoring the wisdom of the

past, nor enslaved to it.

 

That makes me wonder about the guru. If there is a first witch, there

must be a first guru, or a protoguru. Is there?

 

Blessings,

 

prainbow

[Guest guest]

OM Prainbow

 

Are you overwhelmed by the intensity as well as the density of

the Guru threads? This is a hot topic for many.

 

For those who proclaim that a Guru is not necessary, Swami

Sivananda makes this perceptive observation, "Some teachers

mislead their aspirants. They say to all. 'Think for yourself. Do not

surrender yourself to any Guru'. When one says, 'Do not follow

any Gurus', he intends to be the listener's Guru himself. Do not

approach such pseudo-Gurus."

 

With regard to the first Guru, is not God/Goddess the first Guru?

 

In addition, Swami Sivananda says that there are people who

attain spiritual perfection without study under any Guru. But, he

says that these "should not be cited as authoratative against the

necessity for a Guru". He says, "such great men [and women]

are the anomalies of spiritual life, and not the common

normality. They come into existence as spiritual masters as a

result of the intense service, study and meditation practised in

previous births. They had already studied under the Guru. The

present birth is only its continuative spiritual effect. Hence, the

importance of the Guru is not lessened thereby."

 

Om Namah Sivaya

 

Omprem

[Guest guest]

Dear ompremji,

 

You have brought out the right point, whcih most have

missed out. True....

 

Sri Mahatripurasundari Sameta Sri Chandramouleshwara ParabrahmaNe

Namah!

 

 

, "omprem" <omprem> wrote:

> OM Prainbow

>

> Are you overwhelmed by the intensity as well as the density of

> the Guru threads? This is a hot topic for many.

>

> For those who proclaim that a Guru is not necessary, Swami

> Sivananda makes this perceptive observation, "Some teachers

> mislead their aspirants. They say to all. 'Think for yourself. Do

not

> surrender yourself to any Guru'. When one says, 'Do not follow

> any Gurus', he intends to be the listener's Guru himself. Do not

> approach such pseudo-Gurus."

>

> With regard to the first Guru, is not God/Goddess the first Guru?

>

> In addition, Swami Sivananda says that there are people who

> attain spiritual perfection without study under any Guru. But, he

> says that these "should not be cited as authoratative against the

> necessity for a Guru". He says, "such great men [and women]

> are the anomalies of spiritual life, and not the common

> normality. They come into existence as spiritual masters as a

> result of the intense service, study and meditation practised in

> previous births. They had already studied under the Guru. The

> present birth is only its continuative spiritual effect. Hence, the

> importance of the Guru is not lessened thereby."

>

> Om Namah Sivaya

>

> Omprem

[Guest guest]

Greetings Praibrow

 

Well I'm also overwhelmed by the density of the guru threads.

Though

I find it fascinating, somehow I don't think about it very much.

The

idea of a guru hardly cross my mind except for once, and my believe

it that if its meant to be then let it be, otherwise im happy and

comfortable with what I have. Devi I believe is my first probably my

last guru. She is that elderly lady [ whom I called my fairy

godmother ] whom appears on and off [ especially in my dreams ] to

give me guidance.

 

Some words about the guru scares me though : "the guru takes over

your soul" and several others. In this lifetime ive seen good

friends

being drawn into this guru things what seems to be more of a blind

faith than a `bridge that help the student to cross over'.

Perhaps I

still have to overcome this fear before I can actually willing to

surrender myself to a guru.

 

Besides Devi, I believe my first guru is my nursing `guru'.

A very

strict Roman Catholic Nurse [ she is more like a nun ]. Nobody likes

her [ the students I mean] . She was voted the most outstanding nurse

of the year many times. But gosh ! I love her. I adore her and the

more strict she is the more I am drawn to her. When she got angry and

her face flush in fury at us, the more I adore her. Its her words

that keep playing in my head " only when you are in that

situation

you will understand what I am talking about" and yes! She is

right.

Now I began to understand everything she have been trying to impart

to us. No I don't worship her nor do I keep a picture of her like

I

did for the elderly lady [ that I posted in the group photo ]

Don't

she deserve anything. Yes ! she does. She have already a place in my

head. Now I am echoing every word of hers to my own student.

 

Now would you consider that as the same spiritual kind of Guru that

we are talking about? It all depends then right!. To me at that stage

of life, my nursing career is my religion, so naturally to say that

she is my "guru" spiritually or otherwise.

 

Most of the time in the group you will see Devi Bhakta message about

the Guru. Why didn't I participate in it [ as some body suggested

].

It is because Devi Bhakta have said what there is need to be said

beautifully [Devi gift to him I believe]. In our regular

conversation, surprisingly we agreed on a lot of issues especially

with regards to Guru. And I will repeat again that we do not have

anything against Guru nor are we an anti Guru. I don't mind

having

members coming here quoting their guru's or any other guru's

words,

but they must be able to explain to me or to any other members should

we question them and not be like a parrot as suggested by menoon2002.

 

I have my own set of nursing students, and to me it is important that

they understand what they learn via their own understanding and not

what I want them to understand. It drives me nuts when they come to

me and said " this is so because the other nursing tutors says

so". I

will go "explain! explain! In your own words what do you

understand

by it". Am I being wrong in this approach?

 

Om ParaShaktiye Namaha

[Guest guest]

hi harsha, i agree with you 100% ! ompremji has brought out w

wonderful point when he says...

 

'Think for yourself. Do not > > surrender yourself to any Guru'.

When one says, 'Do not follow > > any Gurus', he intends to be the

listener's Guru himself. Do not > > approach such pseudo-Gurus."

 

exactly- this is what j.krishnamurhy (the theosophist) and osho used

to say! if so, then why should we follow what j.krishnamurthy or osho

also?

 

ompremji also makes a wonderful point when he says..

 

In addition, Swami Sivananda says that there are people who

attain spiritual perfection without study under any Guru. But, he

says that these "should not be cited as authoratative against the

necessity for a Guru". He says, "such great men [and women]

are the anomalies of spiritual life, and not the common

normality. They come into existence as spiritual masters as a

result of the intense service, study and meditation practised in

previous births. They had already studied under the Guru. The

present birth is only its continuative spiritual effect. Hence, the

importance of the Guru is not lessened thereby."

 

this is specially true of shri ramkrishna ---

 

When his guru Totapuri opened his ajna chakra ., shri ramakrishna

attained 'nirvikalpa' samadhi in three days what it takes other

discip;les years and years! this is because shrii ramakrishna's

sadhna from previous birth...

 

Do you know that mother meera attained samadhi at age six? is it

possible for anyone of us to do that? we cannot even spell 'samadhi'

at that age?

 

you are indeed right- we are very fortunate to have ompremji in this

forum - he is providing the much needed 'third' dimension - the path

of Raja 'yoga' without which sadhana is noot complete. a car runs on

four wheels - similarly , true sadhna has four dimesnisions ! Bhakti,

kaama, jnana and raja yoga...

 

thank you once again harsha for seeing the woods from the trees!

 

love, ur maa

[Guest guest]

OM Nora

 

In addition to the rugged individualism of some (i.e. high ego

and nationalist programming) that prevents them from

acknowledging the value of a Guru, there are many such as

yourself who have some fear of the Guru idea.

 

You said, "Some words about the guru scares me though : "the

guru takes over your soul" and several others. In this lifetime ive

seen good friends being drawn into this guru things what

seems to be more of a blind faith than a `bridge that help the

student to cross over'."

 

Let me assure you that the authentic Guru has no desire to take

over your soul. In fact, it is quite the opposite. This Guru has as

his/her only goal, the liberation of your soul, the removal of all

conditionings that prevent you from knowing your soul, identifying

with it and with the greater soul of which it is a part.

 

But there is also the fake Guru who does seek to control you.

That is why one should do as you and Devi Bhakta are doing and

be in no particular hurry to find a Guru, focusing instead on

developing one's spiritual qualities and abilities, purifying one's

mind, intellect, pranamaya kosha and heart. This strengthening

and purifying has two effects related to Gurus. First, it will enable

you to spot the fake Gurus quickly. Second, it will demonstrate to

the authentic Guru that you are serious in your spiritual

aspirations and eventually worthy of the close attention of a

Realized Guru.

 

People without a Guru should spend their time practicing the 8

aspects of Raja Yoga or the various aspects of Bhakti Yoga or

devoting themselves to selfless service or reading and

pondering objectively the various scriptures instead of running

after one or another supposed gurus. Those who desperately

want a Guru do so because they sense a lack in themselves and

want the Guru to fill that space. But the Guru will not do that

because the lack is the lack of purity, humility, resilience, and

devotion which can and should all be overcome first by sadhana.

 

Om Namaha Sivaya

 

Omprem

[Guest guest]

Om omprem

 

Thank you. Your words are indeed beautiful.

 

Palms together and I bow to thee in respect.

 

OM ParaShaktiye Namaha

[Guest guest]

OM Nora

 

There are two other related ways that one can have fear in regard

to the idea of Guru in addition to the fear of being used and

abused by a fake Guru and the groundless of fear of being 'taken

over' by an authentic Guru.

 

First, an authentic Guru knows every thought that one has, every

thought that one has ever had, and every action that one has

done. Knowing this, there could be the fear of being judged and

the embarassment of having someone know those things that

one wants no one to know about. But the Guru is not there to

judge, the Guru is there to help the aspirant discard the

conditionings that led to those inappropriate thoughts and

actions in the first place. When they are dissolved, the aspirant

rests in his/her own true identity - that of Brahman. Then they are

the same as Guru.

 

Second, there is the natural fear or awe of coming into close and

direct contact with the Divine. The Guru is God/Goddess

incarnate, Divinity incarnate. One can feel insignificant and

inadequate in such a Presence and therefore resist coming into

contact with a Guru. But the Guru is there to lead the aspirant to

the realization that the aspirant also is God/Goddess incarnate,

that Divinity lies within the aspirant and, in fact, is the true identity

of the aspirant.

 

Fears of Guru are only misconceptions of the role and intention

of the authentic Guru. The Guru can allay those fears just by

his/her presence. Or, one can allay their own fears by watching

and evaluating the authentic Guru and noticing over time the

constancy of their compassion, their love , their God/Goddess

Realized nature.

 

Jaya Guru/Jaya Maa

 

Omprem

[Guest guest]

OM omprem

 

Thank you once again. You have always amazed and awed me with your

wisdom. I have always enjoyed reading your messages not only in

Shakti Sadhana but also in other groups.

 

Perhaps this is the area that I must explore : FEAR

 

Palms together to you.

 

OM ParaShaktiye Namaha

[Guest guest]

dear nora,

 

I fully 'echo' your sentiment...

 

I know shri ompremji for over two years...

 

There is a lot one can learn from him...

 

Mother herself has brought our ompremji to this group and 'brahmanshakti'

group!

 

love

[Guest guest]

Namaste prainbow and everyone!

 

The words "the first guru", in your posting, reminded me of the following

words by Vimalananda-Swami, an associate of Sir John Woodroffe.

 

"Every Jiva on issuing from his mother's womb, lives on her milk, and

receives his first initiation with the Mantra 'Ma' (Mother). The first

preceptor (Adiguru) of every man is his mother. She is his visible Devata.

His first lessons are learnt of her."

 

(from the Introduction to the Karpuradi Stotra in the 1973 edition of

_Hymns to the Goddess_, Ganesh and Co, Madras. You may not find this in

earlier editions of _Hymns to the Goddess_.)

 

The relationship between teacher and learner is as old as the relationship

between mother and child, and is at least as old as the human race.

 

Our distant (proto-human) ancestors may have taught and learned by example

long before they could do so with words.

 

Books are simply another way of passing on information and inspiration.

Unfortunately, when we learn from books we sometimes think "I found this

out for myself". To think that way is to forget that books have writers.

 

I do agree with your statement:

 

"I must live now, neither ignoring the wisdom of the past, nor enslaved to it."

 

The wisdom of the past may not always match the needs of the present; yet

it is a foundation we can build on.

 

Blessings,

Colin

>I know that I have to have that same passion, inquisitiveness and

>dedication and I must live now, neither ignoring the wisdom of the

>past, nor enslaved to it.

>

>That makes me wonder about the guru. If there is a first witch, there

>must be a first guru, or a protoguru. Is there?

>

>Blessings,

>

>prainbow

[Guest guest]

OM Nora

 

Wisdom is merely deep observation using not only

consciousness of the physical but the consciousness of the

chakras.

 

Self-observation is a cornerstone of Raja Yoga. How else would

one be aware of the subtle workings of the ego, the subtle ways

in which we violate the yamas on a daily (if not hourly) basis, the

subtle ways in which we fail to practice the niyamas, the subtle

ways in which we pervert asana-pranayama, and the subtle

ways in which we attempt to guide our meditations instead of

allowing the meditation to guide us.

 

It can all be summed up in one of Swami Sivananda's favourite

chants:

 

"Serve, love, give, purify, meditate, realize.

Be good, do good, be kind, be compassionate.

Adapt, adjust, accommodate.

Bear insult, bear injury, highest Sadhana.

Bear insult, bear injury, highest Yoga.

Enquire, "Who am I ?" Know thyself and be free.

Om Tat Sat. Om Tat Sat. Om Tat Sat. Om.

Om Shati, Om Peace, Om Shalom, Om."

 

Of course, there are many times each day that I am not up to

these high standards, but they remain my standards.

 

OM Namah Sivaya

 

Know thyself and be free.

 

Omprem

[Guest guest]

OM omprem

 

"Of course, there are many times each day that I am not up to

these high standards, but they remain my standards"

 

Thank you for these beautiful verse.

 

I believe we should never give up in trying to maintain standards for

it is the true measure of our sincere desire to achieve our desired

goal and objectives.

 

Om ParaShaktiye Namaha

[Guest guest]

Greetings Colin,

 

IN YOUR POST number 1421 you mentioned this very samething that one's

mother is one's adiguru! this was a response to eve's wonderful post

on 'do you guru' ?

 

I agreed with you then and i am going to agree with you now. it is a

very powerful message.

 

 

It is said Arjuna's son Abimanyu learned everything on 'yuddha

shatra' and 'dharma shastra' when he was in his mother's womb...

 

it is also said sage ashtavakra learned everything on spirituality

from his learned father when he was in is his mother's womb - in

fact, at one point the learned father made a mistake and ashtavakra

cried out from his mother's womb " Respected father , you are

wrong." The learned father got so aannoyed that he cursed his own

unborn son saying "you will be born crooked in eight places."- that

is why the great sage "ashtavakra" is so called because his boyis

crooked (vakra) in eight (ashta) places...

 

Sita devi also raised her twins Lava and Kusha in an ideal manner.

Being a single mother , she did an exemplary job - the twins were

well versed in all shastras due to the great influence of their

divine mother and sage valmiki -

 

Mahatama gandhi was also greatly influenced by his mother Putlibhai

who taught him all about spirituality....

 

ADI shankara himself was greatly influenced by his mother aryambal

who was a great shakta. You can see the shakta influence in many of

adi shankara's writings...

 

one's own mother can do great wonders in the spiritual growth of her

children! she is indeed the 'adi guru.'

 

Matru devo bhava!

 

Mother is God!

 

thanx colin!