Guru Question

[Guest guest]

Here we go again !!!!!

 

I hope im not upsetting anyone, but im so intrigue to ask this

question. Its about the guru again. Actually its my god son who asked

me this question over dinner table yesterday. I was advised by my

husband not to ask this in the group as he said it might upset some

people and discourage others. But my instinct told me that there is

nothing harmful in this as it comes from a 20 yrs old young man [ who

just turn 21 today ].

 

In the Mahabratha, Arjuna went into battle with his own guru. And in

the life of Sri Ramakrishna one of his disciple documented that

several times Sri Ramakrishna disobey the advise of his guru.

 

How do we explain this phenomenon?

 

OM ParaShaktiye Namaha

[Guest guest]

I would like to iterate our position here again with regards to GURU,

I think we have come to an assume concensus that based on our posting

on the issue of Guru that :

 

1. We agreed and never deny the need of a guru. Basically we are

not anti-guru. Having said that, it also means for those with

gurus'

does not make them `special', `blessed' or

`better' then those of us

here who are guruless. Each and every one of us have our own

definitions of the word `Guru'. For some it is a human form,

for

others it might no necessarily be a human. But person is entitled to

their own opinion. We have to respect that.

 

2. But we must also be practical and face the fact that it is

not easy to get a good or reliable guru. So what are we who are

guruless suppose to do. We don't go around lamenting about our

guruless status, but we go on [ like me ] with our sadhana. As omprem

have remarked in his post :

 

"But there is also the fake Guru who does seek to control you.

That

is why one should do as you and Devi Bhakta are doing and be in no

particular hurry to find a Guru, focusing instead on developing one's

spiritual qualities and abilities, purifying one's mind, intellect,

pranamaya kosha and heart. "

 

Omprem have summarise whatever there is need to be said about Guru.

Weather a guru will comes eventually I am not going to think about

it. Because eventually the sun will still shine the next day, the

flowers will still blooms, the grass will still grow. Life goes on.

 

Omprem in his post on "time with Guru' remarked : While a

Guru is

necessary for spiritual enlightenment, that enlightenment could take

place quickly or it could require a long time spread over several

lifetimes. It all depends on the state of the sadhak when the Guru is

encountered.

 

Rightly said. A real guru might even stay away from me, understanding

that a guru-chela relationship is not within my dharma at present. So

maybe my real guru might arrive once my daughter is grown up and on

her own. And when my husband does not depend on me anymore, when I

have fulfilled my duties a householder, only then it is appropriate

to give myself totally to the spiritual world.

 

3. We don't mind having people coming here quoting their Guru. I

am one of those who will read them , but if I post a question and

ask "look I don't understand what your guru is trying to say,

so

could you please explain to me " and you cant, then it is a

problem.

Don't you agree omprem?

 

In one of my message I posted a question about Guru: "In the,

Mahabhaarata Arjuna went into battle with his own guru. And in the

life of Sri Ramakrishna one of his disciple documented that several

times Sri Ramakrishna disobey the advise of his guru. How do we

explain this phenomenon?

 

Lets us put Sri Ramakrishna aside for a while and concentrate on the

Mahabhraatata, after all the Mahabhraatata is a treatise containing

the code of life, and it expounds the philosophy of social and

ethical relations. My thanks to Adi Ma who have laboriously try to

answer this question. But if I am not mistake it was Drona who was

the Guru of Arjuna and not Krishna.

 

"Behold this mighty sons of Pandu, O Perceptor ! arrayed by the

son

of Drupada your clever pupil " Duryodhana to Drona.

 

And during the war, when Arjuna is faced with the reality, he broke

down and remarked " these are my kinsmen, my guru !, I am suppose

to

worship them and not war against them …"

 

Lets just hear what two members of this group have to say about

this [ I have keep the name anonymous ] because they have already

answered whatever there is to be answer, unless of course somebody

have more to add. Please do not hesitate. This is a discussion forum

and we are not here to belittle or riducule others.

 

 

Member A : if necessary one has to fight with own's guru as well when

there is no choice.

 

N : In what instances? What are the guidelines. When one can do that?

And how do we know that what we are doing is the right thing. Because

when you are with a guru, the guru's words is GODs word. So how do we

know?

 

Member A : But if your Guru is on the other side during a war, where

is the choice?

 

N : So for you to uphold Dharma, its okay then to go against your

guru?

 

Member A : If necessary, yes

 

N : But its tough dont you think. If I am with my guru and I worship

him/her can one actually see any faults in one own guru. Its like

biting the hands that feed you. Following your guru's words too is

part of dharma

 

Member A : Horns of dilemma are there. Very difficult choice to make,

since Krishna was with him, Arjuna was emboldened to make that

choice. An ordinary mortal could not have done that.

 

Member B : Well, the answer is. None of this is real. He who thinks

he kills, and he who thinks he dies, are both mistaken. The dharma of

a warrior is to fight and defend against enemies and if the guru of

your youth is now the ally of your enemy, then the duty of the

Kshatriya/Warrior is more important than the duty to the Guru of your

youth.

 

N : So its the clash between individual respect and regard vs.

societal duty. Dharma is social responsibility. The guru becomes the

enemy once he sides with injustices or have grossly wrong, like diong

evil and such.

 

Member B : You love your Guru and he has helped you greatly, but the

past is passed, and now he is your enemy -- so kill him. He has

thrown over his relationship to you as guru, he has separated

himself from you and Krishna said, "Do you think they will not kill

you?" Your guru will kill you if given the chance, so it's your duty

as a warrior to kill him first. To maintain social order - everything

in mainstream hinduism is about maintaining social order

 

N : But in the war too Arjuna have done other mistakes. So who is in

the right and who is wrong here. You say your guru is wrong when you

yourself is commiting it.

 

Member B : Right ! Arjuna is a hero -- but ultimately an imperfect

human. Arjuna finds himself opposed and asks Krishna: How can I harm

my guru and Krishna says: because it's your duty. Arjuna says: To

hell with duty, then!. Krishna says: Think about it -you're mouring

over that which is not worth mourning over. Nobody kills in Reality,

and nobody dies we are all one Soul only the body that dies but the

soul remains but while we are in human form you were born a warrior --

so fight, and never mind that he was your guru. And that, when push

comes to shove, you'd better talk directly to God.

 

N : But as they say guru is the incarnation of GOD

 

Member B : For the Gita, Krishna is Brahman incarnated to assist

Arjuna, who represents the human being the war, is life itself, and

the demands and compromises it demands of us the human being asks God

for help in figuring out how to live his life and God gives him the

answer. We are all One. Don't get lost in the guru issue, Arjuan -

you're in human incarnation right now so act in accordance with your

dharma.

 

N : GOD have given you the reasoning mind

 

Member B : Modern example My guru tells me to donate half my salary

to his ashram

but that would harm my family and my Dharma is that of the

householder -- I am married and have kids. According to Krishna, I

should tell the guru to piss off, and take care of my worldly

obligations. If the guru tells me to sit in pooja room for weeks at a

time -- fine: So long as I can live morally within the human life

I've been given but if it harms my family or livelihood, I am doing

something wrong.

 

So there you have it ! Any comments ?

 

OM ParaShaktiye Namaha

[Guest guest]

OM Nora

 

You say, "We don't mind having people coming here quoting

their Guru. I am one of those who will read them , but if I post a

question and ask "look I don't understand what your guru is

trying to say,so could you please explain to me " and you cant,

then it is a problem. Don't you agree omprem?"

 

My Guru is Swami Vishnu Devananda. His Guru is Swami

Sivananda. I feel reasonably competent to answer any questions

that you have about what these two Gurus have said.

 

If I am unable to do that, then the problem lies either with my

inability to understand what they are saying and to explain it in a

way that someone else understands or with that person's

inability to grasp what is being said.

 

The problem does not lie with the Guru.

 

Jaya Guru

 

Omprem

 

 

 

, "thegoddessisinme2002"

<ashwini_puralasamy> wrote:

> I would like to iterate our position here again with regards to

GURU,

> I think we have come to an assume concensus that based on

our posting

> on the issue of Guru that :

>

> 1. We agreed and never deny the need of a guru. Basically we

are

> not anti-guru. Having said that, it also means for those with

> gurus'

> does not make them `special', `blessed' or

> `better' then those of us

> here who are guruless. Each and every one of us have our own

> definitions of the word `Guru'. For some it is a human form,

> for

> others it might no necessarily be a human. But person is

entitled to

> their own opinion. We have to respect that.

>

> 2. But we must also be practical and face the fact that it is

> not easy to get a good or reliable guru. So what are we who are

> guruless suppose to do. We don't go around lamenting about

our

> guruless status, but we go on [ like me ] with our sadhana. As

omprem

> have remarked in his post :

>

> "But there is also the fake Guru who does seek to control you.

> That

> is why one should do as you and Devi Bhakta are doing and

be in no

> particular hurry to find a Guru, focusing instead on developing

one's

> spiritual qualities and abilities, purifying one's mind, intellect,

> pranamaya kosha and heart. "

>

> Omprem have summarise whatever there is need to be said

about Guru.

> Weather a guru will comes eventually I am not going to think

about

> it. Because eventually the sun will still shine the next day, the

> flowers will still blooms, the grass will still grow. Life goes on.

>

> Omprem in his post on "time with Guru' remarked : While a

> Guru is

> necessary for spiritual enlightenment, that enlightenment

could take

> place quickly or it could require a long time spread over several

> lifetimes. It all depends on the state of the sadhak when the

Guru is

> encountered.

>

> Rightly said. A real guru might even stay away from me,

understanding

> that a guru-chela relationship is not within my dharma at

present. So

> maybe my real guru might arrive once my daughter is grown up

and on

> her own. And when my husband does not depend on me

anymore, when I

> have fulfilled my duties a householder, only then it is

appropriate

> to give myself totally to the spiritual world.

>

> 3. We don't mind having people coming here quoting their

Guru. I

> am one of those who will read them , but if I post a question

and

> ask "look I don't understand what your guru is trying to say,

> so

> could you please explain to me " and you cant, then it is a

> problem.

> Don't you agree omprem?

>

> In one of my message I posted a question about Guru: "In the,

> Mahabhaarata Arjuna went into battle with his own guru. And in

the

> life of Sri Ramakrishna one of his disciple documented that

several

> times Sri Ramakrishna disobey the advise of his guru. How do

we

> explain this phenomenon?

>

> Lets us put Sri Ramakrishna aside for a while and concentrate

on the

> Mahabhraatata, after all the Mahabhraatata is a treatise

containing

> the code of life, and it expounds the philosophy of social and

> ethical relations. My thanks to Adi Ma who have laboriously try

to

> answer this question. But if I am not mistake it was Drona who

was

> the Guru of Arjuna and not Krishna.

>

> "Behold this mighty sons of Pandu, O Perceptor ! arrayed by

the

> son

> of Drupada your clever pupil " Duryodhana to Drona.

>

> And during the war, when Arjuna is faced with the reality, he

broke

> down and remarked " these are my kinsmen, my guru !, I am

suppose

> to

> worship them and not war against them …"

>

> Lets just hear what two members of this group have to say

about

> this [ I have keep the name anonymous ] because they have

already

> answered whatever there is to be answer, unless of course

somebody

> have more to add. Please do not hesitate. This is a

discussion forum

> and we are not here to belittle or riducule others.

>

>

> Member A : if necessary one has to fight with own's guru as

well when

> there is no choice.

>

> N : In what instances? What are the guidelines. When one can

do that?

> And how do we know that what we are doing is the right thing.

Because

> when you are with a guru, the guru's words is GODs word. So

how do we

> know?

>

> Member A : But if your Guru is on the other side during a war,

where

> is the choice?

>

> N : So for you to uphold Dharma, its okay then to go against

your

> guru?

>

> Member A : If necessary, yes

>

> N : But its tough dont you think. If I am with my guru and I

worship

> him/her can one actually see any faults in one own guru. Its

like

> biting the hands that feed you. Following your guru's words too

is

> part of dharma

>

> Member A : Horns of dilemma are there. Very difficult choice to

make,

> since Krishna was with him, Arjuna was emboldened to make

that

> choice. An ordinary mortal could not have done that.

>

> Member B : Well, the answer is. None of this is real. He who

thinks

> he kills, and he who thinks he dies, are both mistaken. The

dharma of

> a warrior is to fight and defend against enemies and if the guru

of

> your youth is now the ally of your enemy, then the duty of the

> Kshatriya/Warrior is more important than the duty to the Guru of

your

> youth.

>

> N : So its the clash between individual respect and regard vs.

> societal duty. Dharma is social responsibility. The guru

becomes the

> enemy once he sides with injustices or have grossly wrong,

like diong

> evil and such.

>

> Member B : You love your Guru and he has helped you greatly,

but the

> past is passed, and now he is your enemy -- so kill him. He

has

> thrown over his relationship to you as guru, he has separated

> himself from you and Krishna said, "Do you think they will not

kill

> you?" Your guru will kill you if given the chance, so it's your duty

> as a warrior to kill him first. To maintain social order -

everything

> in mainstream hinduism is about maintaining social order

>

> N : But in the war too Arjuna have done other mistakes. So who

is in

> the right and who is wrong here. You say your guru is wrong

when you

> yourself is commiting it.

>

> Member B : Right ! Arjuna is a hero -- but ultimately an

imperfect

> human. Arjuna finds himself opposed and asks Krishna: How

can I harm

> my guru and Krishna says: because it's your duty. Arjuna says:

To

> hell with duty, then!. Krishna says: Think about it -you're

mouring

> over that which is not worth mourning over. Nobody kills in

Reality,

> and nobody dies we are all one Soul only the body that dies but

the

> soul remains but while we are in human form you were born a

warrior --

> so fight, and never mind that he was your guru. And that, when

push

> comes to shove, you'd better talk directly to God.

>

> N : But as they say guru is the incarnation of GOD

>

> Member B : For the Gita, Krishna is Brahman incarnated to

assist

> Arjuna, who represents the human being the war, is life itself,

and

> the demands and compromises it demands of us the human

being asks God

> for help in figuring out how to live his life and God gives him the

> answer. We are all One. Don't get lost in the guru issue,

Arjuan -

> you're in human incarnation right now so act in accordance

with your

> dharma.

>

> N : GOD have given you the reasoning mind

>

> Member B : Modern example My guru tells me to donate half

my salary

> to his ashram

> but that would harm my family and my Dharma is that of the

> householder -- I am married and have kids. According to

Krishna, I

> should tell the guru to piss off, and take care of my worldly

> obligations. If the guru tells me to sit in pooja room for weeks

at a

> time -- fine: So long as I can live morally within the human life

> I've been given but if it harms my family or livelihood, I am

doing

> something wrong.

>

> So there you have it ! Any comments ?

>

> OM ParaShaktiye Namaha

[Guest guest]

OM omprem

 

"The problem does not lie with the Guru"

 

I never indicate that its the Guru's fault. The statement is not

intent directly at you, but as a general statement for others. When i

asked : Do you agree Omprem? its me requesting for your opinion on

this issue, but not attacking your guru or anybody. If i do sound

like it, please accept my humble apology.

 

Om ParaShaktiye Namaha

[Guest guest]

I would like to add, in the absence of a reliable guru

one could pray to Surya or Brahma for guidance (there

are enough precedence in the purnanas for this)

 

However, one practical reason to learn rituals from a

Guru is that there are a lot of nuances which are

impossible to capture in books... an extreme example

(please do not misconstrue it) you would not like to

learn to drive a car on your own without an

instructor, right?

 

For bhakthi marga one's conscience itself is the

greatest Guru , afterall even a newborn baby can

recognize it's Mother, can we, however deluded not

find Her on our own?

 

My opinion is that when the time is right things will

happen...

 

-Vishy

 

 

--- thegoddessisinme2002

<ashwini_puralasamy wrote:

> I would like to iterate our position here again with

> regards to GURU,

> I think we have come to an assume concensus that

> based on our posting

> on the issue of Guru that :

>

> 1. We agreed and never deny the need of a guru.

> Basically we are

> not anti-guru. Having said that, it also means for

> those with

> gurus'

> does not make them `special', `blessed' or

> `better' then those of us

> here who are guruless. Each and every one of us have

> our own

> definitions of the word `Guru'. For some it is a

> human form,

 

 

 

 

- Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup

http://fifaworldcup.

[Guest guest]

OM Nora

 

There is no need to apologize. I did not think that you were

attacking my Guru or any Guru. That would not be in character for

you.

 

OM Namaha Sivaya

 

Omprem

[Guest guest]

Greetings nora! Group is looking great!

 

You write...

 

.. But if I am not mistake it was Drona who was

the Guru of Arjuna and not Krishna.

 

"Behold this mighty sons of Pandu, O Perceptor ! arrayed by the

son

of Drupada your clever pupil " Duryodhana to Drona.

 

And during the war, when Arjuna is faced with the reality, he broke

down and remarked " these are my kinsmen, my guru !, I am suppose

to worship them and not war against them …"

 

This is true- Dronacharya (acharya means great teacher) was arjun's

(in fact, the pandavas') teacher from whom arjuna nd his brothers

learned the art of 'archery' - but in the olden gurukula system, you

learn many things from a guru- not just a skill- you learn how to

serve, ho to be humble and how to be submissive and how to be

gracious...

 

but krishna paramatma who is known as GITACHARYA taught Arjuna

SOMETHING MORE VALUABLE - not just how to fight a battle with 'bows

and arrows' - FROM lord krishna, arjuna received 'direct' knowledge

on all the four yogas- KARMA, BHAKTHI, JNANA AND RAJA YOGA...in this

sense, sHRI KRISHNA WAS ARJUNA;S REAL tEACHER -TEACHER OF BRAHMA-

VIDYA OR ATMA-GYANA (knowledge of self or knowledge of brahmnan) !

 

we all can have more than one teacher - from a a dance teache, one

can learn dance.

but a spiritual guru is the one leads you on the path of 'brahman

realization' ...

 

so, while dronacharya made arjuna proficient in the art of 'fighting'

battles, lord krishna taught arjuna how to fight the real battles in

life through the practice of karma, bhakthi, jnana and raja yoga.

 

love

[Guest guest]

OM Adi Shakthi

 

You wrote, " we all can have more than one teacher - from a a

dance teacher, one can learn dance. but a spiritual guru is the

one who leads you on the path of 'brahman realization' ...

 

so, while dronacharya made arjuna proficient in the art of

'fighting' battles, lord krishna taught arjuna how to fight the real

battles in life through the practice of karma, bhakthi, jnana and

raja yoga."

 

 

Quite so. There is usually a big difference between an acharya

and a Guru. All authentic Gurus are also Acharyas, but only a

few Acharyas are Gurus. The rest just know a lot of detail about a

particular subject.

 

OM Namah Sivaya

 

Omprem

 

 

 

 

 

 

, "adi_shakthi16"

<adi_shakthi16> wrote:

> Greetings nora! Group is looking great!

>

> You write...

>

> . But if I am not mistake it was Drona who was

> the Guru of Arjuna and not Krishna.

>

> "Behold this mighty sons of Pandu, O Perceptor ! arrayed by

the

> son

> of Drupada your clever pupil " Duryodhana to Drona.

>

> And during the war, when Arjuna is faced with the reality, he

broke

> down and remarked " these are my kinsmen, my guru !, I am

suppose

> to worship them and not war against them …"

>

> This is true- Dronacharya (acharya means great teacher) was

arjun's

> (in fact, the pandavas') teacher from whom arjuna nd his

brothers

> learned the art of 'archery' - but in the olden gurukula system,

you

> learn many things from a guru- not just a skill- you learn how to

> serve, ho to be humble and how to be submissive and how to

be

> gracious...

>

> but krishna paramatma who is known as GITACHARYA taught

Arjuna

> SOMETHING MORE VALUABLE - not just how to fight a battle

with 'bows

> and arrows' - FROM lord krishna, arjuna received 'direct'

knowledge

> on all the four yogas- KARMA, BHAKTHI, JNANA AND RAJA

YOGA...in this

> sense, sHRI KRISHNA WAS ARJUNA;S REAL tEACHER

-TEACHER OF BRAHMA-

> VIDYA OR ATMA-GYANA (knowledge of self or knowledge of

brahmnan) !

>

> we all can have more than one teacher - from a a dance

teache, one

> can learn dance.

> but a spiritual guru is the one leads you on the path of

'brahman

> realization' ...

>

> so, while dronacharya made arjuna proficient in the art of

'fighting'

> battles, lord krishna taught arjuna how to fight the real battles

in

> life through the practice of karma, bhakthi, jnana and raja yoga.

>

> love