Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 A member of the group asked me these questions sometime back : Is this a legitimate form of Devi Worship? Who am I to say that it is not. I personally believe any form of Devi worship which brings one closer to HER is legitimate. And based on the post that I have put up with regards to these, the practice of Ritual Transvestism has been in practice for a very long time. I remember during my days in the old temple; during the temple festivals, I remember seeing some young man dressing up as woman [ in saris and such ] and participating in ritual. I was rather confused then but now everything make sense to me. About 3 months ago another friend of mine, attend another Temple ritual and they witness the same practices. How would you react if suddenly one fine day your husband said that he wanted to worship Devi in this way? Well it depend on the time factor : before or after I came to know about this practice. If its before, then its natural for me to think it as strange, but again I know once if I am being explain logically, I will agree to it. Infact I would go all out and help my own husband into this process. And to me it's a blessings from Devi, for choosing me to help him. Dressing as a woman does not make him a woman. How do you as a woman react when you are being told about this ancient practice? I had this discussions with a member of the group sometime back, and my initial reaction was : oh! that is interesting. I don't see it as strange or weird. Thereafter I began to think : why is it that man have all the best ritual towards Devi. And this envy and jealously began to creep in. I began to believe that Devi favours the man than the women. I know it's a unbecoming of me to think that way, but that was my initial reaction. It was from this discussion that I began to take interest in Ritual Transvestism and thus my quest for greater understanding. I was told a story from the DB Gita of how Shiva, Vishnu and Brahman step onto the jeweled island they are transformed into beautiful maidens, and only then do they perceive Devi sitting on Her throne. In the male form, the island appears to be empty -- they simply cannot see Her. As soon as they transform, they see Her surrounded by female devotees. When they bow at her feet and suddenly notice that the entire Cosmos is reflected in her smallest toenail. Brown notes that the Cosmos in the toenail is an obvious play on the Bhagavad Gita, in which Krishna displays the Cosmos by opening his mouth. The small toenail seems insignificant, the mouth is so central -- therefore it shows how much more great Devi is than Krishna in relation to the visible Cosmos. When Shiva, Vishnu and Brahman left the jeweled island, and when they look back, they saw their Female form still at the lotus feet of Shakti. This raises some questions : Why were Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma only able to see Shakti when SHE transform them into a woman? Did she merely bring them into balance? Or did she bring them all the way over the feminine side? If this is the case, then it simply means that in order to `see' [ realize ] Shakti as the chosen deity [ ishtadevata ] you truly do deny the Divine Masculine, and submit yourself totally to her world? Is gender is as much a Maya to be overcome as anything else in the world? These are the questions that I don't have the answer to. Another gave me this explaination : "…. that the "andro-centric" development of Civilization crushed most Goddess religions out of existence. In Hinduism, She survived, but completely surrounded by a male-dominated theology and world; and so She is an island. Because the male devotee is conditioned to believe in Male superiority, and the distinct separateness of Man and Woman, Her religion is distorted in this context. And so, to restore the balance, great compensation is necessary because the Feminine self is now so deeply buried in the Male psychology" … my search will still go on …. Om ParaShaktiye Namaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 Greetings nora! The posts on 'transvetism ' are really very fascinating and it is very interesting to read different aspects of this phenomenon.. Nora, i also liked the reference you made regarding Devi's cosmic form being seen in her tiny toe nail! interesting and very facinating piece of information Kali herself ( or sree lalita devi) wanted to experience this "maduraya rasa" ( the bhava of a female devotee for a male deity) - so, kali incarnated as Lord KRISHNA so she can experience the madhurya rasa of srimati radharani and the cowherd girls of vrindavan, the gopis!!! (this is per Tantrarajatantra) Once shri ramakrishna ( a kali bhakta) told one of his disciples in answer to a question" that which is kali is krishna and that which is Krishna is KALI." POETS like shri Ramprasad Sen used to worship kali as krishna as well! in fact, he wrote poems to honor this sentiment! nora, you mentioned that krishna's cosmic form was seen in his Mouth-! very true! mother YASHODA herself saw the entire universe in Krishna's mouth when she accused KRISHNA of being a butter thief and he denied it by opening his mouth for mother yashoda to see!! Once, shri krishna was stroking radharani beautiful tresses and do you know what LORD Krishna SAW IN RADHARANI'S each hair FOLLICLE? HIS (KRISHNA'S) OWN COSMIC FORM -THE VIRATA RUPA-! such was srimati radharani's devotion for her beloved Krishna...is this not amazing? now, nora, what could be tinier than a hair partcle? OM namo bhagvate vasudevaya! jai mahakali! JAI GURUDEVA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 Dear Sister As a womyn..I would like to reach out to you ..if men need to be ritually being womyn .it means that they lack that femaleness But we are already have it..we are embodiments of the DEvi.that's why we are the earth that creates life as in MOther birthing children as for why the guys do all the prayers?? Email me I am setting up a Kali temple in Houston Texas that run and administered by womyn .even alll the rituals will be done by womyn email me pvtly Venya LAUNCH - Your Music Experience http://launch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 Jai Kali! But please don't be confused. Ritual transvestism is merely the outward expression of Shiva-Shakti, a Tantric reality between a man & a woman. Om Matta Ki! mega6 -- In , z zripe <bearbutte2001> wrote: > Dear Sister > > As a womyn..I would like to reach out to you ..if men > need to be ritually being womyn .it means that they > lack that femaleness > > But we are already have it..we are embodiments of the > DEvi.that's why we are the earth that creates life as > in MOther birthing children > > as for why the guys do all the prayers?? > > Email me > > I am setting up a Kali temple in Houston Texas that > run and administered by womyn .even alll the rituals > will be done by womyn > email me pvtly > > Venya > > > > LAUNCH - Your Music Experience > http://launch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2002 Report Share Posted June 21, 2002 Two of my professors in the Women's Spirituality Department at New College met a man originally from Kerala but now living in So. Clifornia. He was initiated into a practice in which he dressed as a woman and worshipped Devi. I am not clear about any details of this...such as ...is this something the man does as an initiation or is it something done on a regular basis?... Also, Ammachi recently chastised an Indian male devotee who was saying mildly disparaging things about women, in fact about mothers in particular. She told him he was to dress as a woman for the remainder of her visit, which he did. This fellow has a substantial thick black beard so it must have been quite a sight to see him in a sari. He said it gave him an insight into what it was like to be a woman. Also the sight of him made Ammachi laugh. He has taken it as his job to make her laugh. Aikya , "thegoddessisinme2002" <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > A member of the group asked me these questions sometime back : > > Is this a legitimate form of Devi Worship? > > Who am I to say that it is not. I personally believe any form of Devi > worship which brings one closer to HER is legitimate. And based on > the post that I have put up with regards to these, the practice of > Ritual Transvestism has been in practice for a very long time. I > remember during my days in the old temple; during the temple > festivals, I remember seeing some young man dressing up as woman [ in > saris and such ] and participating in ritual. I was rather confused > then but now everything make sense to me. About 3 months ago another > friend of mine, attend another Temple ritual and they witness the > same practices. > > How would you react if suddenly one fine day your husband said that > he wanted to worship Devi in this way? > > Well it depend on the time factor : before or after I came to know > about this practice. If its before, then its natural for me to think > it as strange, but again I know once if I am being explain logically, > I will agree to it. Infact I would go all out and help my own > husband into this process. And to me it's a blessings from Devi, > for > choosing me to help him. Dressing as a woman does not make him a > woman. > > How do you as a woman react when you are being told about this > ancient practice? > > I had this discussions with a member of the group sometime back, and > my initial reaction was : oh! that is interesting. I don't see it > as > strange or weird. Thereafter I began to think : why is it that man > have all the best ritual towards Devi. And this envy and jealously > began to creep in. I began to believe that Devi favours the man than > the women. I know it's a unbecoming of me to think that way, but > that > was my initial reaction. It was from this discussion that I began to > take interest in Ritual Transvestism and thus my quest for greater > understanding. > > I was told a story from the DB Gita of how Shiva, Vishnu and Brahman > step onto the jeweled island they are transformed into beautiful > maidens, and only then do they perceive Devi sitting on Her throne. > In the male form, the island appears to be empty -- they simply > cannot see Her. As soon as they transform, they see Her surrounded by > female devotees. When they bow at her feet and suddenly notice that > the entire Cosmos is reflected in her smallest toenail. Brown notes > that the Cosmos in the toenail is an obvious play on the Bhagavad > Gita, in which Krishna displays the Cosmos by opening his mouth. The > small toenail seems insignificant, the mouth is so central -- > therefore it shows how much more great Devi is than Krishna in > relation to the visible Cosmos. When Shiva, Vishnu and Brahman left > the jeweled island, and when they look back, they saw their Female > form still at the lotus feet of Shakti. > > This raises some questions : > > Why were Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma only able to see Shakti when SHE > transform them into a woman? Did she merely bring them into balance? > Or did she bring them all the way over the feminine side? If this is > the case, then it simply means that in order to `see' [ > realize ] > Shakti as the chosen deity [ ishtadevata ] you truly do deny the > Divine Masculine, and submit yourself totally to her world? Is gender > is as much a Maya to be overcome as anything else in the world? > > These are the questions that I don't have the answer to. > > Another gave me this explaination : > > "…. that the "andro-centric" development of Civilization > crushed > most Goddess religions out of existence. In Hinduism, She survived, > but completely surrounded by a male-dominated theology and world; and > so She is an island. Because the male devotee is conditioned to > believe in Male superiority, and the distinct separateness of Man and > Woman, Her religion is distorted in this context. And so, to restore > the balance, great compensation is necessary because the Feminine > self is now so deeply buried in the Male psychology" > > > … my search will still go on …. > > Om ParaShaktiye Namaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2002 Report Share Posted June 22, 2002 Man & Woman are equal. They were created equal. Together they comprise a sacred litany, let's call that Tantra. But Woman creates, Man can only fertilise. And so woman more perfectly reflects the nature of creation. Indeed, our wonderful universe is verily a womb, the womb of creation. Therefore, Woman contains the Man, just as she must contain the Seed, to become fertile. ................... And now on to the matter of ritual transvestism. Ritual transvestism - generally a man dressed as a woman - is the outward expression of Shiva-Shakti. It is a symbol denoting wholeness, the Male & the Female joined in one, as one: hieros gamos, yoni-linga, sacred marriage. That is all. Jai Om! mega6 , "aikya" <aikya> wrote: > Two of my professors in the Women's Spirituality Department at New > College met a man originally from Kerala but now living in So. > Clifornia. He was initiated into a practice in which he dressed as a > woman and worshipped Devi. I am not clear about any details of > this...such as ...is this something the man does as an initiation or > is it something done on a regular basis?... > > Also, Ammachi recently chastised an Indian male devotee who was > saying mildly disparaging things about women, in fact about mothers > in particular. She told him he was to dress as a woman for the > remainder of her visit, which he did. This fellow has a substantial > thick black beard so it must have been quite a sight to see him in a > sari. He said it gave him an insight into what it was like to be a > woman. Also the sight of him made Ammachi laugh. He has taken it as > his job to make her laugh. > > Aikya > > > > , "thegoddessisinme2002" > <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > > A member of the group asked me these questions sometime back : > > > > Is this a legitimate form of Devi Worship? > > > > Who am I to say that it is not. I personally believe any form of > Devi > > worship which brings one closer to HER is legitimate. And based on > > the post that I have put up with regards to these, the practice of > > Ritual Transvestism has been in practice for a very long time. I > > remember during my days in the old temple; during the temple > > festivals, I remember seeing some young man dressing up as woman [ > in > > saris and such ] and participating in ritual. I was rather confused > > then but now everything make sense to me. About 3 months ago > another > > friend of mine, attend another Temple ritual and they witness the > > same practices. > > > > How would you react if suddenly one fine day your husband said that > > he wanted to worship Devi in this way? > > > > Well it depend on the time factor : before or after I came to know > > about this practice. If its before, then its natural for me to > think > > it as strange, but again I know once if I am being explain > logically, > > I will agree to it. Infact I would go all out and help my own > > husband into this process. And to me it's a blessings from Devi, > > for > > choosing me to help him. Dressing as a woman does not make him a > > woman. > > > > How do you as a woman react when you are being told about this > > ancient practice? > > > > I had this discussions with a member of the group sometime back, > and > > my initial reaction was : oh! that is interesting. I don't see it > > as > > strange or weird. Thereafter I began to think : why is it that man > > have all the best ritual towards Devi. And this envy and jealously > > began to creep in. I began to believe that Devi favours the man > than > > the women. I know it's a unbecoming of me to think that way, but > > that > > was my initial reaction. It was from this discussion that I began > to > > take interest in Ritual Transvestism and thus my quest for greater > > understanding. > > > > I was told a story from the DB Gita of how Shiva, Vishnu and > Brahman > > step onto the jeweled island they are transformed into beautiful > > maidens, and only then do they perceive Devi sitting on Her throne. > > In the male form, the island appears to be empty -- they simply > > cannot see Her. As soon as they transform, they see Her surrounded > by > > female devotees. When they bow at her feet and suddenly notice that > > the entire Cosmos is reflected in her smallest toenail. Brown notes > > that the Cosmos in the toenail is an obvious play on the Bhagavad > > Gita, in which Krishna displays the Cosmos by opening his mouth. > The > > small toenail seems insignificant, the mouth is so central -- > > therefore it shows how much more great Devi is than Krishna in > > relation to the visible Cosmos. When Shiva, Vishnu and Brahman left > > the jeweled island, and when they look back, they saw their Female > > form still at the lotus feet of Shakti. > > > > This raises some questions : > > > > Why were Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma only able to see Shakti when SHE > > transform them into a woman? Did she merely bring them into > balance? > > Or did she bring them all the way over the feminine side? If this > is > > the case, then it simply means that in order to `see' [ > > realize ] > > Shakti as the chosen deity [ ishtadevata ] you truly do deny the > > Divine Masculine, and submit yourself totally to her world? Is > gender > > is as much a Maya to be overcome as anything else in the world? > > > > These are the questions that I don't have the answer to. > > > > Another gave me this explaination : > > > > "…. that the "andro-centric" development of Civilization > > crushed > > most Goddess religions out of existence. In Hinduism, She survived, > > but completely surrounded by a male-dominated theology and world; > and > > so She is an island. Because the male devotee is conditioned to > > believe in Male superiority, and the distinct separateness of Man > and > > Woman, Her religion is distorted in this context. And so, to > restore > > the balance, great compensation is necessary because the Feminine > > self is now so deeply buried in the Male psychology" > > > > > > … my search will still go on …. > > > > Om ParaShaktiye Namaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2002 Report Share Posted June 23, 2002 Thank You Aikya, Megalith and z zripe for participating in this discussion. z zripe first reaction when she came to our group is [ she told me this over the phone ]: they are discussing Ritual Transvestism. Wow ! . When the first time I told my co founder : Devi Bhakta that I wanted to discuss about this, I could sense his reluctance. I know it can be a very sensitive issue for some especially for the men, but I believe if this is a legitimate form of Devi's worshipping, then it have every reason to be in Shakti Sadhana discussion list. Lets discuss this and learn something from it. After all that is what we are all here for, to learn from each other and we should respect each other opinion. I started this topic after a discussion with a good friend. It somehow intrigue me to find out more, did some readings and I found an article written by : Shahrukh Husain. The Goddess : Power, Sexuality and the Feminine Divine.[ see message 814 ]. In this article she put forward several explanations to this practice and one of it of which I find truly gave me the best explanation is as follows : They are striving, consciously or unconsciously, to attain the state of androgyny in which they unify the complementary aspects of male and female, and thereby attain a superior, divine or near-divine, state". Well I didn't stop to this, while reading two books I discover these practices in a) Kali's Odiyya : A shaman's True Story of initiation. Amarananda Bhairavan. Pg 2. Chapter one : The night of Kali. b) Kali: The Black Goddess of Dakshineswar. Ellizabeth U Harding. Chapter 5. Ma Kali's God intoxicated mystics. Pg 262. [ see message 2418 ] This confirmed that Kali devotees do to some extend practice Ritual transvestism as part of their Sadhana. Another Devotee who is also a member of this group [ I wish to keep his name anonymous, and I really hope he could come forward to shed some light in to the practice so that we can get a better understanding. No amount of books can beat that of a personal experience ] too have undergo this ritual. He is a devotee of Sri Lalitha Devi. If you refer back to my message 2418, it is said that : The elders considered this the highest form of Tantaric worship any male can perform to Kali. This then brings me to a question that bugs me : If Ritual Transvestism is the highest form of Tantaric worship for a man to Devi, What is the highest form of Tantaric worship for woman to Devi? Venga [ @ z zripe ] remarked further that "if men need to be ritually being womyn. It means that they lack that femaleness". Do they? I love to hear more from Venga what does she mean by this. >From our conversation over the phone the other day, Venga revealed to me that she have seen many Ritual Transvestism. So perhaps she could share her experiences with us. On my trip back to Singapore, I met up with a friend who is a psychologist and also a counselor to transvestites about to undergo sex change operation. She gave me a lecture on Transsexualism and Gender confusion. I told her "look Doc, these people are not confuse. They know what they are doing. They know who and what they are. So there must be more to this". In message 2418 ive briefly mention some of the things that she said to me. This is the detail information she gave me: "Central to the understanding of Gender issues especially with regards to Transvestism, one must make a distinction between Sexual identity and Gender identity. Both terms although used on occasions interchangeable, are different Sexual identity is an embracing term which denotes biological and psychological aspects including gender identity, social sex role and sexual orientation. Gender identity refers to the inner feelings of maleness or femaleness. In essence, it is the gender of the inner self – that part of an individual that is not seen; the individual's perception of himself or herself. It is not necessarily related to his anatomical sex and is independent from his or her social sex role Social sex role or femininity and masculinity is a cultural phenomenon. What constitutes femininity or masculinity in one society may not be so in another. What is appropriately masculine behaviour, such as being rough and tough in Western cultures, may be perfectly acceptable as feminine behaviour in other countries. Contrary to common perceptions, social sex role is not bipolarized and femininity and masculinity do not represent the two extremes of a single continuum. It is not uncommon to find a very masculine men who possess the tenderness and gentleness of females when it comes to dealing with babies. Likewise, some perfectly feminine women, on different occasions, can display man-like vigour. In other words, a person can possess varying degrees of both maleness and femaleness. The presence of one does not exclude the other. Gender indentity is also distinct from sexual orientation, which denotes a person's preference for his or her sex partners." In my message 2438, ive raised several questions. Questions im still trying to find the answers. megalith6 remarked : Ritual transvestism is merely the outward expression of Shiva-Shakti, a Tantric reality between a man & a woman. He went further to explain that : It is a symbol denoting wholeness, the Male & the Female joined in one, as one: hieros gamos, yoni-linga, sacred marriage. Is it just an outward expression? Don't this too create a psychological transformation in the man? I don't think so any man [ I don't mean the transvestites ] would just say : okay ! I will do it. I will put on the female clothings. And that's it ! I personally believe there is more to just an outward expression. " He was initiated into a practice in which he dressed as a woman and worshipped Devi. I am not clear about any details of this...such as ...is this something the man does as an initiation or is it something done on a regular basis?..." I hope my past messages on Ritual Transvestism about to answers to some of your question that you may have. The first article is in message 814 and from there you can follow through the thread of messages on Ritual Transvestism. >From my conversation with some members here, the ritual is not a permanent one. Its just one of the phase one go through as part of their Sadhana. And as Sankara Menon mention "It is said in Kaula tantra that as husband and wife do the sadhana together and in all sincerity and seriousness following all the rules, then slowly they get transformed to the form of lalita. I know one couple who are like twins, though the earlier pictures were of different people" Now my questions to Sankara menon : 1. Is this being practice only in Kuala Tantra. Sri Ramakrishnan did this as part of his Vaishnav Sadhana. 2. Do one need a guidance of a guru to carry out this? I remember once heard a remark: I don't believe that Devi wants to make me a laughing stock. This is from a man who are being advise by his guru that he should do his sadhana dress up as a woman. And in my thoughts immediately replied : I don't think so that Devi wants to make other laugh at her faithfuls. What ever that is, there is a good reason. And as ive mention before any form of Devi worship that brings one closer to HER is as legitimate as any other. "He said it gave him an insight into what it was like to be a woman" This is interesting. I love to know what are the insights that he is referring to. Perhaps it does change his perception of how he sees woman, and thereafter make him think twice before he says anything unpleasant to another woman?. Or is he able to understand the discomfort he felt dressing up as a woman? Personally I believe in Ritual Transvestism, the whole effect runs deep. Its more of changing the mindset of a man into seeing the Female aspect of himself, and thereafter merge this two image into one, thus creating an "Ardhanarishvara". And like Ramakrishna, he have no problems changing himself from a woman to man [ dressing up ] and vice verse. This brings me back to the main statement in the Devi Bhagavata Purana "I am Female, I am Male, and I am Neuter." Om ParaShaktiye Namaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2002 Report Share Posted June 23, 2002 A man & a woman joined in sexual union can experience a transcendental state. This is the basis of Tantra. Both participants merge into each other until orgasm is achieved. After which time they regain their respective ego identities, separate, & become man & woman again. There is no question of confusion. Coitus is a legitimate means of experiencing transcendental bliss. It is not the sole means. Jai Maa! mega6 , "thegoddessisinme2002" <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > Thank You Aikya, Megalith and z zripe for participating in this > discussion. z zripe first reaction when she came to our group is [ > she told me this over the phone ]: they are discussing Ritual > Transvestism. Wow ! . > > When the first time I told my co founder : Devi Bhakta that I wanted > to discuss about this, I could sense his reluctance. I know it can be > a very sensitive issue for some especially for the men, but I believe > if this is a legitimate form of Devi's worshipping, then it have > every reason to be in Shakti Sadhana discussion list. Lets discuss > this and learn something from it. After all that is what we are all > here for, to learn from each other and we should respect each other > opinion. > > I started this topic after a discussion with a good friend. It > somehow intrigue me to find out more, did some readings and I found > an article written by : Shahrukh Husain. The Goddess : Power, > Sexuality and the Feminine Divine.[ see message 814 ]. > > In this article she put forward several explanations to this practice > and one of it of which I find truly gave me the best explanation is > as follows : They are striving, consciously or unconsciously, to > attain the state of androgyny in which they unify the complementary > aspects of male and female, and thereby attain a superior, divine or > near-divine, state". > > Well I didn't stop to this, while reading two books I discover > these > practices in > > a) Kali's Odiyya : A shaman's True Story of initiation. > Amarananda Bhairavan. Pg 2. Chapter one : The night of Kali. > > b) Kali: The Black Goddess of Dakshineswar. Ellizabeth U > Harding. > Chapter 5. Ma Kali's God intoxicated mystics. Pg 262. [ see message > 2418 ] > > This confirmed that Kali devotees do to some extend practice Ritual > transvestism as part of their Sadhana. Another Devotee who is also a > member of this group [ I wish to keep his name anonymous, and I > really hope he could come forward to shed some light in to the > practice so that we can get a better understanding. No amount of > books can beat that of a personal experience ] too have undergo this > ritual. He is a devotee of Sri Lalitha Devi. If you refer back to my > message 2418, it is said that : The elders considered this the > highest form of Tantaric worship any male can perform to Kali. This > then brings me to a question that bugs me : If Ritual Transvestism is > the highest form of Tantaric worship for a man to Devi, What is the > highest form of Tantaric worship for woman to Devi? > > Venga [ @ z zripe ] remarked further that "if men need to be > ritually being womyn. It means that they lack that femaleness". > Do they? I love to hear more from Venga what does she mean by this. > From our conversation over the phone the other day, Venga revealed to > me that she have seen many Ritual Transvestism. So perhaps she could > share her experiences with us. > > On my trip back to Singapore, I met up with a friend who is a > psychologist and also a counselor to transvestites about to undergo > sex change operation. She gave me a lecture on Transsexualism and > Gender confusion. I told her "look Doc, these people are not > confuse. > They know what they are doing. They know who and what they are. So > there must be more to this". In message 2418 ive briefly mention > some of the things that she said to me. This is the detail > information she gave me: > > "Central to the understanding of Gender issues especially with > regards to Transvestism, one must make a distinction between Sexual > identity and Gender identity. Both terms although used on occasions > interchangeable, are different Sexual identity is an embracing term > which denotes biological and psychological aspects including gender > identity, social sex role and sexual orientation. > > Gender identity refers to the inner feelings of maleness or > femaleness. In essence, it is the gender of the inner self – that > part of an individual that is not seen; the individual's > perception > of himself or herself. It is not necessarily related to his > anatomical sex and is independent from his or her social sex role > > Social sex role or femininity and masculinity is a cultural > phenomenon. What constitutes femininity or masculinity in one society > may not be so in another. What is appropriately masculine behaviour, > such as being rough and tough in Western cultures, may be perfectly > acceptable as feminine behaviour in other countries. > > Contrary to common perceptions, social sex role is not bipolarized > and femininity and masculinity do not represent the two extremes of a > single continuum. It is not uncommon to find a very masculine men who > possess the tenderness and gentleness of females when it comes to > dealing with babies. Likewise, some perfectly feminine women, on > different occasions, can display man-like vigour. In other words, a > person can possess varying degrees of both maleness and femaleness. > The presence of one does not exclude the other. > > Gender indentity is also distinct from sexual orientation, which > denotes a person's preference for his or her sex partners." > In my message 2438, ive raised several questions. Questions im still > trying to find the answers. > > megalith6 remarked : Ritual transvestism is merely the outward > expression of Shiva-Shakti, a Tantric reality between a man & a > woman. He went further to explain that : It is a symbol denoting > wholeness, the Male & the Female joined in one, as one: hieros gamos, > yoni-linga, sacred marriage. Is it just an outward expression? > Don't > this too create a psychological transformation in the man? I > don't > think so any man [ I don't mean the transvestites ] would just > say : > okay ! I will do it. I will put on the female clothings. And > that's > it ! I personally believe there is more to just an outward > expression. > > > " He was initiated into a practice in which he dressed as a > woman > and worshipped Devi. I am not clear about any details of this...such > as ...is this something the man does as an initiation or is it > something done on a regular basis?..." > > I hope my past messages on Ritual Transvestism about to answers to > some of your question that you may have. The first article is in > message 814 and from there you can follow through the thread of > messages on Ritual Transvestism. > > From my conversation with some members here, the ritual is not a > permanent one. Its just one of the phase one go through as part of > their Sadhana. > > And as Sankara Menon mention "It is said in Kaula tantra that as > husband and wife do the sadhana together and in all sincerity and > seriousness following all the rules, then slowly they get transformed > to the form of lalita. I know one couple who are like twins, though > the earlier pictures were of different people" > > Now my questions to Sankara menon : > 1. Is this being practice only in Kuala Tantra. Sri Ramakrishnan > did this as part of his Vaishnav Sadhana. > 2. Do one need a guidance of a guru to carry out this? > > > I remember once heard a remark: I don't believe that Devi wants > to > make me a laughing stock. This is from a man who are being advise by > his guru that he should do his sadhana dress up as a woman. And in my > thoughts immediately replied : I don't think so that Devi wants > to > make other laugh at her faithfuls. What ever that is, there is a good > reason. And as ive mention before any form of Devi worship that > brings one closer to HER is as legitimate as any other. > > "He said it gave him an insight into what it was like to be a > woman" > > This is interesting. I love to know what are the insights that he is > referring to. Perhaps it does change his perception of how he sees > woman, and thereafter make him think twice before he says anything > unpleasant to another woman?. Or is he able to understand the > discomfort he felt dressing up as a woman? > > Personally I believe in Ritual Transvestism, the whole effect runs > deep. Its more of changing the mindset of a man into seeing the > Female aspect of himself, and thereafter merge this two image into > one, thus creating an "Ardhanarishvara". And like > Ramakrishna, he > have no problems changing himself from a woman to man [ dressing up ] > and vice verse. This brings me back to the main statement in the Devi > Bhagavata Purana "I am Female, I am Male, and I am Neuter." > > Om ParaShaktiye Namaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2002 Report Share Posted July 5, 2002 Ritual Transvestism " A man & a woman joined in sexual union can experience a transcendental state. This is the basis of Tantra. Coitus is a legitimate means of experiencing transcendental bliss. It is not the sole means" It is a legitimate means, I don't deny that but personally with regards to Ritual Transvestism it has got nothing to do with any sexual act. If you look at most of the images of the Mahavidyas, they portrayed sexual imagery. Kali and Tara is sometimes showns copulating with Siva in a cremation ground. Chinnamasta decapitates herself while standing or sitting on Rati, who is having sexual intercourse with Kama. There are also examples of Chinnamasta having sexual intercourse with Siva while he lies on a cremation pyre and she decapitates herself. Often these images juxtaposition with death ( the cremation ground ). Nevertheless these images symbolizes a deeper meanings. There are two interpretation to these imagery 1. Both dying and sex are human experiences can overwhelmed a person experiencing it. It can cause a person to be uprooted from and unprotected by social conventions and ritual insulation. It is a highly ritualized in every culture because of the intense emotions they produce and cause social disruption. It is the "explosive" nature of death and sex imagery that makes them so central in the Tantaric Sadhana. As symbols they are able to evoke a very powerful feelings that can deeply affect and alter a person. This is the kind of experience that the sadhaka seeks. 2. It express the nature of reality as a constant and simultaneous inception-creation and destruction. Most of us will find such imagery shocking because we have mask ourselves the destructive dimension of reality so insistently that its inevitable appearance is upsetting. We see sex and death as something `repulsive'. We become unrealistic and our views of the reality being warped tightly. The shocking imagery of the Mahavidyas helps the sadhakas to expand their state of consciousness, an awareness of the truth of things. "Both participants merge into each other until orgasm is achieved. After which time they regain their respective ego identities, separate, & become man & woman again" This gives me the impression that this state of transcendental bliss is not permanent. In Ritual Transvestism from my understanding is that it hope to achieve a permanent transcendental bliss. In some literature it is called Transformation. Basically this is what it is all about. A state of permanent transformation because a man is never the "same" again after he have undergone the experience. Like I have said before in my previous post, no any ordinary man would simply agreed to dress up as woman. They will often meet with a lot of resistance: psychologically, physically and socially. I have heard comments from a Shakta friend who remarked that its much easier for the family to accept, but not society. I went once to a Hindu chat room, and chatted with an ex aghora and when I asked him his opinion about Ritual Transvestism he abusively remarked "these people are pervert". And there are some who believe that Ritual Transvestism is a Tantaric technique. It does speed up ones' sadhana. "……… it was not a "sexual" feeling at all. A "gender" feeling, yes. but not a physical, sexual reaction of any kind. It was like I was meeting somebody I have never met before ... like a long-lost sister, a twin sister, mistakenly separated at birth terribly familiar and yet total strangers. Imagine suddenly learning that you had a twin brother you never knew about, and suddenly today you were introduced face-to-face. And you see yourself in him, so familiar and yet a stranger. Really it was like having no past. All of the things I usually think about and concern myself with dropped away. Yes! there was no ego. Those that was attached to my normal idea of myself was totally surmerged. It was instantaneous. There was no struggle. There was instant acceptance. I don't miss her because she is there, awake and conscious. There was a closer feeling. A feeling that She appreciated the effort, and the feeling that i've awakened something dormant within myself. Also I feel unusually calm and laid back…." That was an account [ his first reaction ] given by my Male Shakta friend who have undergone the Ritual Transvestism. If you read back my original post. Ritual Transvestism does not confine in Hindusim alone. It is an ancient practice. I have the opportunity to meet up with z zripe [ bearbutt ] in Kaliamman Temple, Singapore last weekend, during the Guru Periyachi Pooja, and she remarked : one of her friend [ a Male Shakta ] do his pooja in Sari. And he have been doing it for a long time and it seems natural to him. This brings me back to the story of Shiva, Vishnu and Brahman : "Shiva, Vishnu and Brahman step onto the jeweled island they are transformed into beautiful maidens, and only then do they perceive Devi sitting on Her throne. In the male form, the island appears to be empty -- they simply cannot see Her. As soon as they transform, they see Her surrounded by female devotees. When they bow at her feet and suddenly notice that the entire Cosmos is reflected in her smallest toenail. Brown notes that the Cosmos in the toenail is an obvious play on the Bhagavad Gita, in which Krishna displays the Cosmos by opening his mouth. The small toenail seems insignificant, the mouth is so central -- therefore it shows how much more great Devi is than Krishna in relation to the visible Cosmos. When Shiva, Vishnu and Brahman left the jeweled island, and when they look back, they saw their Female form still at the lotus feet of Shakti." It is said that they emerged after the transformation not as `less a man', but as realized soul. OM ParaShaktiye Namaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2002 Report Share Posted July 6, 2002 hi nora! I really admired the way in which you presented your ideas on 'ritual transvetism' with courage and conviction... it is a 'sensitive' topic and you handled it very well - you exploded some myths in the process as well.. thanks for a well-researched post... here is a poem describing this very sentiment.... Look here, dear fellow: I wear these men's clothes Only for you. Sometimes I am man, Sometimes I am woman. O Lord of the Meeting Rivers I'll make wars for you But I'll be your devotees' bride. Basavanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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