Re:Subject: Christians, Muslims Upset Over Tamil Nadu Conversion Decree

[Guest guest]

Namaste Ompremji!

 

Your criticism of Catholicism stands out from all your

other knowledgeable and worthwhile posts. Every major

religion has had its share of terrorizing people in

the name of the religion, Catholocism being no

exception. Like other religions, Catholicism has also

produced a rich cornucopia of highly venerable saints.

St Teresa of Avila was a highly evolved yogini who

exhibited several siddhies such as levitation. The

bridal mysticism of St John of the cross equals that

of Mirabai. The soulful prayers of St Francis compares

with the devotional outpouring of Chaitanya

Mahaprabhu.

(BTW I am not catholic). The book Concentration by

Mouni Sadhu tells that many christian saints were

aware of yogic secrets akin to patanjali yogasutras.

 

If Hindus did not reciprocate on attacks made on them

in the past, it is definitely not because of belief in

ahimsa, but out of fear and a belief in blind

fatalism(occasional a great soul like Madhava

Vidyaranya comes about to wake them out of this

fatalism, the reference is to systematic muslim

carnage in the 15 the century which ceased with the

formation of the Vijayanagar kingdom). Germs can cause

disease only if the immune system is weak. Likewise,

if missionaries are going around converting people,

there must be something inherently wrong in Hinduism

like the infernal caste system which systematically

kept the majority of people out of joys of well lived

religious life. Most people living in the west are

probably aware only of the benign side of Hinduism but

it has a sinister side too. I know of several people

of "lower" castes who converted because they could not

withstand insults. I was reading of the history of

Kerala, and several hundred years back, the lower

castes were forbidden to come in the sight of the

upper castes; and if the same person were to convert

to Islam or Christianity, he was treated as an equal.

If Hinduism did not engage in physical violence, it

engaged in the more insidious mental torture. What

other religion exists that treats its own adherents

worse than animals. Missionaries, by converting are

not bringing them closer to God but at least are

providing some self-respect. As Swami Vivekanada said,

Bharatavarsha has been and still is living in tamas

for the past 1000 years. People will eat pure rice

alone the whole day, keeping a "pure" diet and sleep

the whole day in the guise of "holiness"- a glaring

example of how tamas has been mistaken for sattwa.

 

To those who would tell me that caste system was

ordained by God, I will refer them to the section of

the Santiparva of Mahabaharata where Bhisma lying on

the deathbed is giving advice to Yudhishtra, when Y.

asks him " What is the criteria for being a brahmin,

is it birth or character" to which Bhisma replies "

character alone decides who is a brahmin, birth is

immaterial".

 

Aum Namasivaya,

yogaman

 

 

 

Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site

http://webhosting./

[Guest guest]

DEAR CHILD OF DEVI, first, let me congratulate you on your excellent

choice of ID... you win hands down! how can i contradict

a 'child of devi'? for devi lives in her children. right? smiles!

 

well, dear one, i am very impressed ! you include the names of

st.theresa of avilla, st.john of the cross, and st.francis of assissi

as great yogis with enormous siddhis,,, but, dear one- you forgot to

include the greaest YOGI OF THEM ALL ---- JESUS CHRIST ! CHRIST

COULD CURE THE LEPER BY HIS TOUCH, GIVE SIGHT TO THE BLIND AND WALK

ON WATER AND ABOVE ALL LIKE KRISHNA PARAMATMA FEED A MILLION PEOPLE

WITH NO PROBLEM,,,so he was siddha purusha himself! shri ramakrishna

paramahamsa HIMSELF HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THE GREATNESS OF JESUS CHRIST !!!

( btw i am not a christian, either but i love christ

for his purity, simplicity and humility)

 

YOU SAY RATHER BOLDLY that

 

" if missionaries are going around converting people,

there must be something inherently wrong in Hinduism

like the infernal caste system which systematically

kept the majority of people out of joys of well lived

religious life."

 

YES, THE CASTE SYSTEM (THE PRACTICE OF UNTOUCHABILITY) is indeed

one of the vulnerable points of hindu society and christiam

nissionaries certainly took advantage of this specially in the

impoverished states of kerala, bengal, orissa etc to convert the so

called low caste harijans to christianity... after all was it karl

marx or hegel who said 'religion is the opium of the masses... "

indeed, these converts might have had access to better

education ,better health and even better social status but in the

bargain , they did lose something - they got alinated from their own

culture...

 

but if you claim if Hindus converted to christianity because of the

inhuman caste syatem, then majority of christians should convert to

ISLAM (specially the LOUIS fARAKHAN BRAND) ...and why so?

 

dID YOU KNOW THAT THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH ONCE SUPPORTED SLAVERY ?

When SALVERY was in vogue in America, the Bishop

of London wrote to the slave-owners in the South: "Christianity

and the embracing of the Gospel does not make the least

alteration in civil property or in any of the duties which

belong to civil relations; but in all these respects it

continues Persons just in the came State as it found them. The

Freedom which Christianity gives is Freedom from the bondage of

Sin and Satan and from the Dominion of Men's Lusts and Passions

and inordinate Desires but as to their outward condition,

whatever that was before, whether bond or free, their being

baptised and becoming Christians makes no manner of change in

them."...

 

 

yes, caste system is a disgrace and inhuman but "slavery' is worse -

for it advocated 'ill-treatment' ' humiliation' and above all

lynching?

 

" St. Paul urged one slave ONESIMUS to return to his master. It is

said that the ships that carried slaves from Africa, had gospel hymn

AMAZING GRACE penned to the ships, indicating that people who made

poor innocent Africans as slaves, were very devout Christians. They

did not see anything wrong in making black Africans as slaves..

Columbus a very devout Christian was indeed a missionary who did NOT

feel any remorse in taking slaves from America."

 

Thessalonians 3:22 "Servants obey in all things your masters

according to the flesh; not with eye service, as men pleasers; but in

singleness of heart, fearing God."

 

sO CHILD OF DEVI, HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THIS ? DO YOU THINK I AM

MISQUOTING THE BIBLE JUST TO PROVE A POINT - or that slavery never

existed ?

 

well, that is the whole point- the caste system that was originally

devised in the purusha sukta was based on division of labour but in

time, it degeneated into an abusive practice.... blame men and

society not the scriptures for the misuse and abuse of VARANASHMA

DHARMA...

 

IN THE BHAGWAT GITA lord krishna says...

 

ACCORDING TO THREE GUNAS (SATTWIC, RAJASTIC AND TAMASIC) AND PROPER

DIVISION OF LABOR, THE `CHATHUR-VARNA' OR `FOUR-COLORED' OR `FOUR-

DIVISION' SOCIETY WAS CREATED BY ME. ALTHOUGH I AM THE CREATOR OF

THIS SYSTEM, YOU SHOULD KNOW ME AS THE `NON-CREATOR OF THE SYSTEM'

AND I AM ENDLESS.

 

chikld of devi - did you know that the word 'caste' originated from

the portugese word 'casta' meaning 'pure' race and varna meaning

color...

 

the caste system was based on division of labor ( our beloved

economist wadam smith would love it) !!!

 

BRAHMINS undertook the work of taking care of priestly duties,

KSHATRIYAS undertook the work of taking care of ruling the country

and VAISYAS undertook the work of taking care of business. SHUDRAS

undertook the work of helping all the three upper castes in their day

to day duties.

 

but,, it is men who exploited this fourfold varanashrama dharma and

brought disgrace to HINDUISM!

 

THERE IS AN INTERESTING STORY IN THE LIFE OF ADI SHANKARA... once

when adii shankara was walking on the streets of kasi (benaras)- shri

shankara was accosted by an untouchable- shri SANKARA angrily asked

an untouchable to move out his way and untouchable talked back. DEAR

SIR! WHAT DO YOU WANT TO MOVE ? BODY OR SOUL? To which Sankara said:

THE UNTOUCHABLE WHO SPEAKS LIKE THAT CAN BE NOBODY ELSE, BUT LORD

SHIVA HIMSELF And prostrated in front of lORD SHIVA WHO WAS DISGUISED

AS THE UNTOUCHABLE...

 

WE HAVE MANY RISHIS WHO BELONG TO LOWER CASTES... valmiki was

a 'robber' who was transformed by sage narada to become a saint...

Saint thiruvalluvar is a weaver by profession... sant kabir was also

a weaver...

 

RELIGION IS NOT BARTER---i must become a 'muslim' only if i feel

Islam IS MY ONLY MEANS TO SALVATION NOT BECAUSE ISLAM ALLOWS ME TO

HAVE FOUR WIVES!!! SMILES!!!

 

SIMILARLY, I MUST BECOME A CHRISTIAN ONLY IF I FEEL THE JESUS CHRIST

IS THE ONLY SAVIOUR not because I can have a better standard of

life!!

 

gandhiji never liked the use of the word 'untouchables' - h called

them 'harijans' and called them children of god or hari! in

INDEPENDENT INDIA, UNTOUCHABILITY HAS BEEN ABOLISHED and government

is making every effort to provide better opportunities in matters of

education and employment to the lower castes...

 

do christians ever feel sorry for the shiploads of slaves they

brought from india and africa to the western world?

 

in the bible, it is said "love thy enemy" - but in today's world, we

are seeing the so called christian leaders want to go t war at the

slightest pretext!

 

yes, BRAHMINS PERSECUTED THE LOWER CASTES AND ARE NOW PAYING A PRICE

FOR IT... what goes around comes around...

 

yes, missionaries like mother teresa did great service to the hungry

and homeless in calcutta and other poor regions of the world- more

kudos to them...

 

but, by the same token , can we forget the inquisitions and the

salem witch hunts?

 

so, child of devi -we are all children of devi and THE DIVINE MOTHER

loves us all no matter what our backgrounds are... (hindu, islamic,

christian, jewis, jain or buddhist)

 

om sree sree matrayaii namaha!!

[Guest guest]

OM Yoga man

 

In your haste to try to make a point, you overlooked my comment

in post 3416, "...the negative and fundamentally flawed basis of

Christianity as practiced by all the branches of Christianity except

for the mystical ones." The Christian examples you cite, St

Teresa of Avila and her buddy, St John of the Cross, who are

among my favourites, belong to the mystical school of

Christianity. I suggest you reread St Teresa's The Interior Castle

as a treatise on the chakras.

 

I find your comment, "If Hindus did not reciprocate on attacks

made on them in the past, it is definitely not because of belief in

ahimsa, but out of fear and a belief in blind fatalism..." to be

without foundation and, more importantly, to provide a

demonstration of your own ignorance and your tamasic and

venomous nature.

 

Similarly, your comment, "if missionaries are going around

converting people, there must be something inherently wrong in

Hinduism" is also without foundation and again serves to

demonstrate your own ignorance and ill will. Hinduism like

Judaism feels no need to prosletyze. Christianity, on the other

hand, feels impelled to prosletyze. They cite as their authority

John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes

to the Father except through me." Also Matthew 22:9-10 has

Jesus telling his servants [i.e. Christians] to bring to the wedding

banquet "anyone you can find".

 

Incredibly as it sounds, just today Archbishop Marcel Gervais

(Roman Catholic) said in my local newspaper, "Catholics cannot

claim to possess the entire truth, but we do believe that we have

the essential truth." This pompous attitude is what prompts

Christians to interfere with those holding other religious views.

 

In Canada, the Christian Church is under legal siege for their

mistreatment [i.e. cultural genocide] of aboriginal peoples in the

beginning and middle of the last century. It is also under legal

siege of for the sexual interference by priests toward minors

during most of the last century. Many Christian orders are being

forced to disband as their assets are being seized to satisfiy

court judgements in both of these areas. Not a moment too soon

in my opinion. It is too bad that Archbishop Gervais has failed to

learn any lessons from this legal lesson that his church is being

taught.

 

Your uninformed rant about the caste system further betrays your

ignorance and raises the suspicion that you are a closet

missionary for those 'Christian' sects. Please take your hate

messages to a fundamentalist 'Christian' website or

group where they will be welcomed uncritically. You need to

reread or perhaps read for the first time, the Bhagavad Gita.

 

OM Namah Sivaya

 

Omprem

 

 

, Yoga man <childofdevi> wrote:

> Namaste Ompremji!

>

> Your criticism of Catholicism stands out from all your

> other knowledgeable and worthwhile posts. Every major

> religion has had its share of terrorizing people in

> the name of the religion, Catholocism being no

> exception. Like other religions, Catholicism has also

> produced a rich cornucopia of highly venerable saints.

> St Teresa of Avila was a highly evolved yogini who

> exhibited several siddhies such as levitation. The

> bridal mysticism of St John of the cross equals that

> of Mirabai. The soulful prayers of St Francis compares

> with the devotional outpouring of Chaitanya

> Mahaprabhu.

> (BTW I am not catholic). The book Concentration by

> Mouni Sadhu tells that many christian saints were

> aware of yogic secrets akin to patanjali yogasutras.

>

> If Hindus did not reciprocate on attacks made on them

> in the past, it is definitely not because of belief in

> ahimsa, but out of fear and a belief in blind

> fatalism(occasional a great soul like Madhava

> Vidyaranya comes about to wake them out of this

> fatalism, the reference is to systematic muslim

> carnage in the 15 the century which ceased with the

> formation of the Vijayanagar kingdom). Germs can cause

> disease only if the immune system is weak. Likewise,

> if missionaries are going around converting people,

> there must be something inherently wrong in Hinduism

> like the infernal caste system which systematically

> kept the majority of people out of joys of well lived

> religious life. Most people living in the west are

> probably aware only of the benign side of Hinduism but

> it has a sinister side too. I know of several people

> of "lower" castes who converted because they could not

> withstand insults. I was reading of the history of

> Kerala, and several hundred years back, the lower

> castes were forbidden to come in the sight of the

> upper castes; and if the same person were to convert

> to Islam or Christianity, he was treated as an equal.

> If Hinduism did not engage in physical violence, it

> engaged in the more insidious mental torture. What

> other religion exists that treats its own adherents

> worse than animals. Missionaries, by converting are

> not bringing them closer to God but at least are

> providing some self-respect. As Swami Vivekanada said,

> Bharatavarsha has been and still is living in tamas

> for the past 1000 years. People will eat pure rice

> alone the whole day, keeping a "pure" diet and sleep

> the whole day in the guise of "holiness"- a glaring

> example of how tamas has been mistaken for sattwa.

>

> To those who would tell me that caste system was

> ordained by God, I will refer them to the section of

> the Santiparva of Mahabaharata where Bhisma lying on

> the deathbed is giving advice to Yudhishtra, when Y.

> asks him " What is the criteria for being a brahmin,

> is it birth or character" to which Bhisma replies "

> character alone decides who is a brahmin, birth is

> immaterial".

>

> Aum Namasivaya,

> yogaman

>

>

>

> Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site

> http://webhosting./

[Guest guest]

Hello,

> Germs can cause

> disease only if the immune system is weak. Likewise,

> if missionaries are going around converting people,

> there must be something inherently wrong in Hinduism

> like the infernal caste system which systematically

> kept the majority of people out of joys of well lived

> religious life. Most people living in the west are

> probably aware only of the benign side of Hinduism but

> it has a sinister side too.

 

 

This reveals some of your inherent beliefs. Either you seem to

believe that the Christian Missionaries can never be wrong or, that

christains(or missionaries) are in some way superior to Hindus

(provided, you exactly mean what you wrote). You are wrong. Some

members already wrote why.

 

Good luck

S.

[Guest guest]

Dear S

 

I request that you kindly read carefully what I have said and please

do not add your own extrapolations as to what I meant. I said no such

thing- all I meant I repeat(for the benefit of all other members who

have twisted what I said) is that the people who are the object of

conversion have been treated bady by their own Hindu brothers which

really makes them easy to convert and as we Hindus should take

remedial steps within our own attitudes to bring to Hinduism as a

whole to its pristine purity. By "we" I do not mean you or me, I am

referring to the average person. Unless you are an ostrich with its

head buried under ground and totally out of touch with reality, you

will realize what I am saying- read the newspaper daily.

 

It is really the height of stupidity to suggest that this means that

I am saying Christians are superior or Hindus are inferior.

 

yogaman

 

 

 

This reveals some of your inherent beliefs. Either you seem to

believe that the Christian Missionaries can never be wrong or, that

christains(or missionaries) are in some way superior to Hindus

(provided, you exactly mean what you wrote). You are wrong. Some

members already wrote why.

 

Good luck

S.