Guest guest Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 In a message dated 11/7/2002 8:59:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, devi_bhakta writes: > And there you have it. What do you think? > > Simple. I think if they were going to eat all those goats and it is not putting a strain on the collective goat population let them do it. Truthfully I myself am a Vegetarian, yet I know that Goddess Kali often enough is not! I wouldn't eat it, but if somebody eats meat and can sacrifice an animal in a manner that is cruelty free than let them do it. I think it is more respectful than the cold metal interiors of our own fast food supplying Death-Industry where animal are alaughtered en-masse through an assembly line process often suffering long before they actually do. To me, that is a sin against life which creates us it's an abomination. The fact remains that life feeds off of life, but to be wasteful is horrible. I have heard of people who practice Santeria and other Afro-Carribbean rites who sacrifice animals and don't eat them. They think they are serving dark spirits and well they must be! Really though, I can't tell other people what to do. Suffering never seems like a good thing though for any living being. If they eat the goats and don't torture them I can't say anything to them. I hear in Jewish Kosher tradition and Islamic Halal tradition the animals are bled to death! To me that sounds much worse! At least cutting a head off is nice and swift. Does anyone know about these practices?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 Most of our Indian members are undoubtedly familiar with the controversial Miss Maneka Gandhi. She started her career modelling for soap ads in the 1970's; later married Indira Gandhi's ill-fated son Sanjay; and after Sanjay's death she became Indira's nemesis for a time. Since the mid-80's, Maneka has recreated herself as an environmental, vegetarian and animal-rights advocate. She's abrasively confrontational and many people can't stand her, but it's a lot of fun trying to keep up with all of her various crusades. A few years back, I sent her an congratulatory note after she gave the U.S.-based fast-food chain "Kentucky Fried Chicken" (KFC) all kinds of hell trying to break into the Indian market -- and barely a week later I received an impressive-looking envelope from the Government of India (she was a member of the Indian Parliament then; now she's "Minister for Social Justice and Empowerment") which contained a very nice, interesting, funny personal letter from her, along with some additional information on the KFC campaign and some of her similar undertakings. Well yesterday, India's Sify News service reported that Maneka's latest triumph was to stop a 1,000-goat sacrifice to Goddess Kali in Orissa. Thought some of our members might find it interesting: Maneka stops animal sacrifice in Orissa By Bibhuti Mishra in Bhubaneswar Every year, on the Maha Bishuva Sankranti day, more than 1,000 goats and sheep are sacrificed at the Bayani Thakurani (Goddess Kali) temple in Patrapada village in Angul district of Orissa. The sacrifice is undertaken in full public view as thousands from all over the district throng the temple to witness the annual ritual. But Maneka Gandhi not only saved these animals, she also stopped this age-old tradition of largescale animal sacrifice. A group of social activists of the district had written to Maneka seeking her intervention. A week before the Sankranti day, district collector LN Gupta received a letter from Maneka Gandhi asking him to take steps to stop the mass sacrifice. Risking the wrath of devotees and priests, a contingent of police led by SP Arun Bothra went to Patrapada to convince the people to do away with the practice. By noon, thousands of villagers had assembled at the temple with more than 1,000 goats waiting to be sacrificed. The temple priests and the devotees stuck to their stand as they were afraid that breaking of the ritual would bring the goddess's wrath upon all. It was a battle between animal rights and the belief that sacrifice will bring good fortune. After a four-hour long discussion and persuasion, the priests changed their mind and requested the administration to allow symbolic sacrifice of one animal. Some devotees staged a demonstration blocking the road but to no effect. The police, meanwhile, started buying time till evening as the ritual is not performed after sunset as per tradition. As the sun started setting at around 5.45 p.m, the time for the ritual was over and the devotees started leaving the place. The gory practice was stopped but not before the temple priests rang out a warning that it would bring ill fortune to the people. HPI (Hindu Press International) carried the story, sniffily adding the comment: "The report indicates nothing about the fate of the animals after the police intervention. Most likely the goats still ended up as dinner, as the protest was against the ritual sacrifice of the animals and not their killing per se." And there you have it. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 Truthfully I myself am a Vegetarian, yet I know that Goddess Kali often enough is not! I wouldn't eat it, but if somebody eats meat and can sacrifice an animal in a manner that is cruelty free than let them do it. Forgive the dissention, but even if one sneaks up behind an animal a slices its head off without it being unawares, is this not cruel, the taking of innocent life, even if it didn't hurt? My God, My God. Each and every killing of a living creature sets its karma in motion to become another form. Cutting a creatures life short to fill one's belly, that could be interpreted as inauspicious. Let's think about our selective love today. Let us all go home and kill our family pet tonight and eat it? What?! Why not? Because we love our pet. We can kill a goat we do not know though. Its easy, no attachments. How about that! Thought provoking, eh? Guru Om Markandeya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 Let's think about our selective love today. Let us all go home and kill our family pet tonight and eat it? What?! Why not? Because we love our pet. We can kill a goat we do not know though. Its easy, no attachments. How about that! Thought provoking, eh? Guru Om Markandeya Yes, it's thought provoking and I would certainly never harm my cat little boots! Like I said, this type of killing is not for me. It is very obvious however that most people have and will be eating meat for a long time! Nothing anyone else says, or does will change that and we really couldn't expect to. We have fast food industries and I high demand for meat products which create these really horrible situations of "death-factories" where animals are slaughtered en masse and usually suffer a good deal first-to me this is n abomination and a sin against nature and the will of life! All I was really implying was that at out of the many choices of "evil" available I think the one that causes the least suffering is best. Animal sacrifice seems less cruel than letting a machine do the work after the animal has been confined to a box for years and in physical discomfort! At least the animal sacrificers from what I know treat the animal really well first! And then then eat the animal which is important. I have heard of members of various sects/cults killing animals just to draw blood and then not using them! I personally know of a local Santeria group which has done this with Roosters and I love Rooster so that freaks me out! Bottom line is this: People are going to kill no matter what. I think that if it is going to happen the path of least harm and least waste is best. For me this means not doing it at all! But I do worship Kali and it seems she likes blood, or else there are so many many misguided devotees! Cutting off a head is more swift and painless then lets say bleeding something to death as I hear is done in the Kosher and Halal rites. Can anyone confirm this, or is it a myth??? It is an interesting issue and one that can rouse strong feelings in people. What cracks me up is when I talk about the cruelties done to animals to procure meat to my friends who eat the stuff and then they get uncomfortable! Most people who eat meat have a problem with killing and wouldn't do it themselves- Now how strange and backwards is that! William-who doesn't eat flesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 greetings! william! you state Cutting off a head is more swift and painless then lets say bleeding something to death as I hear is done in the Kosher and Halal rites." well what does the 'word halal mean? halal means that which is 'lawful' and 'haram' means that which is unlawful or prohibited... according to muslims , as per quranic injunction... animals shuld be slaughtered reciting the quran and that too the meat cutter should be a devout muslim believing in allah... that is why devout muslims only buy meat from halal shops.. as far as 'painlessness' is concerned - i do not know - but it is said that when animal is slaughtered swiftly, in one JATKA, the blood remasins in the body whereas if you do it the hallal way, the blood is taken out of the body... just as hindus offer everything to god/ess before eating their food and then take it as 'prasadam' , mulslims recite the holy quran before slaughtering an animal... the animal is slaughtered according to islamic laws and by a prerson who practices the faith... it is believed allah asked for blood sacrifice and prophet mohammed was about to sacrifice his own son and at allah's intervention, sacrificed the 'goat' instead... I ASKED MY GURUDEVA WHO WAS a kali -bhakta REGARDING THIS... he gave me several explanations.... he himself would never even hurt a 'fly' --- he told me 'goat' represents the banal qualities in a man/woman (arogance. lust, desires, jealousy, ego, anger etc) and symbolically by offering the goat , the devotee was telling KALima - PL PROTECT ME AGAINST ALL THESE SINFUL QUALITIES! in many temples, 'goats' have been replaced by'pumpkins' and coconuts ... now, gurudva also told me that in india slaughter houses are very unhygenic - at least if the animals are slaughtered in the presence of goddess kali, it will be swift and the 'animals' thus slaughtered at the lotus feet of KALI attain liberation... WELL, KILLIING IS BAD! animals or humans! in india where cows are worshipped as 'MOTHER' - you will see the 'abuse' they are subjected to... they are ill fed and are skeletons.... not only that, the are used as beasts of burden - made to transport human passengers.... and have you seen how they get whipped by their owners? i am all for maneka gandhi and her crusade for vegetarianism... but animal cruelty can ne of many kinds- killing is only one of them- look at the stary dogs roaming in the streets of bombay or delhi competing with begaars for food in garbage dumps; i guess if 'goats' also get 'mad ' goat disease, people may stop eating them!! love Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 Cutting off a head is more swift and painless then lets say bleeding something to death as I hear is done in the Kosher and Halal rites." well what does the 'word halal mean? > This is a very thought provoking post of yours which was an enjoyable read. I often tell those who come to me regarding this issue with many questions this simple scenario: Let us say that a super intelligent race of carnivorous beings landed in masse on the Earth and rendered our conventional weapons of defense useless. Now, these beings are so far advanced, that we seem to them in intelligence, as the goat seems to us. So, because they are so vastly more intelligent than we are and we are viewed as relatively speaking, stupid animals, is it to be considered moral to slaughter our wifes, children, mothers and fathers, because we are stupid animals to them? Our claim to eat other animals can be boiled down to the very simple issue of ''we are vastly more intelligent then they are, and therefore, we have dominion over them and can decide at will who lives and who dies, and as you say in your post, how they are to be treated.'' Are we ready to accept be the lesser of a superior species regarding intellect, to be rounded up, treated inhumanely and then slaughtered to feed them? If we feel righteous indignation at the prospect of being treated as such by other beings because they are more 'intelligent' and consider this irrelevant to their 'immorality' towards the human race, what does this say about our treatment of lesser intelligent animals? What does this say about we as humans as a whole? Things to consider Guru Om Markandeya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 Yes, it's thought provoking and I would certainly never harm my cat little boots! Like I said, this type of killing is not for me. It is very obvious however that most people have and will be eating meat for a long time! Nothing anyone else says, or does will change that and we really couldn't expect to. > My friend you touch on such an important point, and it is that of judgement. Regarding the issue of animal slaughter, it is absolutely imperative to let those who are at this level of understanding to remain so if they choose to do so. It is often the defect of a person who has a religious experience, to then rather egocentrically think that others should then think like they do. This is a tragedy in itself, because we are then usurping God by saying that we do not agree with the stage of life that everyone else is at. All of us have risen from the density of tamas, through rajas, and into the light of sattva, and a true understanding of oneself is to realize that one must let others be where they are. In my own younger days when mistakes and ignorant thoughts were rampant, nobody was pushing an ideology down my throat, and it would not have worked anyway. What is to be taken from all of this? It is this, that one can speak about issues such as slaughter, but must refrain from judgments. Those whom the words touch are the ones that words were supposed to touch. It is one's duty to speak their heart, but it is not one's duty to force one's understanding on others. The words can be put out, but it is up to each and every person that reads or hears the words to accept or reject them. All I was really implying was that at out of the many choices of "evil" available I think the one that causes the least suffering is best. >Ah, the lesser of evils! Animal sacrifice seems less cruel than letting a machine do the work after the animal has been confined to a box for years and in physical discomfort! At least the animal sacrificers from what I know treat the animal really well first! >Let us pray that this concern for cruelty matures into a concern for life, aum. And then then eat the animal which is important. I have heard of members of various sects/cults killing animals just to draw blood and then not using them! I personally know of a local Santeria group which has done this with Roosters and I love Rooster so that freaks me out! >Another fabulous point. I myself have visited a household and there was meat on the table. I not only accepted the offering, but made sure that myself and everyone else ate until there was no meat left! Those who listen to my words were perplexed and shocked. They inquired as to what in the world I was accomplishing. This was my reply: It is a sin to kill to fill ones belly, but it is a greater sin to have slaughtered an animal and then let it go to waste. This is the final insult to an animal that has already been slaughtered; that it has been slaughtered in vain, only to be wasted. But I do worship Kali and it seems she likes blood, or else there are so many many misguided devotees! >The blood of the demons of ignorance, which is of course metaphorical Most people who eat meat have a problem with killing and wouldn't do it themselves- Now how strange and backwards is that! >There is a website where a fellow has posted some of my writings, though I don't know why! Here is one of those writings which follows this vein of thought. ______ Animal abuse The man in the line of sign-holders yells "Animal rights!No more testing on live animals!" After a time he goes home. On his way, he stops by the market to pick up the evening's supper, hamburgers. The cow is held at bay in a standing-room-only stall; this is to minimize the exertion of the animal, thereby conserving fat stores. After a life in a stall, the mature cow is herded to another stall where its throat is prompty slit, forcing the life out of the animal as it bleeds to death. Its hide stripped, it is quartered and sent to various supermarkets, where the meat is cut from the bone and packaged for timely consumption. The man picks up his his purchase, so neatly packaged, and makes his way home. Animal abuse indeed. ______ Thank you for the truly thought provoking exchange, may blessings be yours Guru Om Markandeya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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