In conversation : Shakti the sex energy?

[Guest guest]

Once I posted a question from a non-Hindu friend who asked me: Why

the Hindu goddess appear sexual?. I got reprimanded in public. This

person said such question is not fit to be asked in Shakti Sadhana

because it is an insult to DEVI. I have been trying to understand

this uproar, because in my opinion I didn't see it as an insult ,

but

a question by an innocent friend who are curious about our Goddess

and was just voicing out his honest opinion. It is my believe that

instead of us reprimanding him/ or me for trying to be helpful (

cause' I am posting somebody's question ), we should explain

to him

in a logical and rational matter. As my moderator Kochu1tz himself

agrees with me : without asking how will you learn. And that Hindu

Goddess and Gods are sexual because there is nothing to be ashamed of

in sex.

 

But this question I am about to post on behalf of a member of a

group, is slightly different. Some may find it offensive but to me

this question should be in the message board and should be discuss (

if possible ), thus I have decided to make him anonymous.( He did

told me that it is okay to use his name but after much thoughts ( the

pros and cons ), I have decided otherwise. I hope all of you do

forgive me for this ) Kochu1tz too agrees with me, saying "yes

indeed

it is one of THE MOST interesting questions and we must disabuse

peoples' thinking that sex takes you to God and more partners the

better!!"

 

I have made this into a conversation mode as this was discuss with

other members of the group over the chat line.

 

TG : Is Sexual energy the Goddess ?

 

N : Shakti is the energy, but as Shakta, I never look at her as a

sexual energy because she is above all that.

 

K : Actually I feel sexual energy is ONE OF THE manifestations of

Shakthi

 

D : I think any energy is. To call it sexual energy rather than just

energy is a block.

 

TG : Isnt sexual energy is an aspect of kundalini Shakti. In Red

Tantra sex energy is use the boost the kundalini. What I mean is like

seeing beyond sex as sex. Seeing it as a cosmic energy rather than

gross sex. Associating sex energy as divine, something I have always

done.

 

D: In kundalini yoga, chastity is encouraged so that the energy

usually expended on sex (human union) can be raised upward for divine

union. In that sense, it's kundalini (a form of Devi) who is moving

upward and therefore it's fair to guess that She is the same energy

moving downward (i.e. for human sex). But it is not a different

energy -- it's all the same Shakti put to different use by the atman.

My opinion is that when people get stuck on spiritualizing sex, they

are actually failing to spiritualize it. I feel bad actually that

DEVI gets stuck with all this. You know, no one asks if Allah is

sexual energy or whether Jesus is sexual energy. To me that a pure

Shakta, who thinks of DEVI as Purusa as well as Prakriti, has to rise

above those associations.

 

 

She is one and the other -- unlike Shaivism and Vaishnavism, She

doesn't call on us to deny sex or any other material things,

pleasureable or otherwise. but we must attempt to dwell in Her

spiritual aspects as well, or we've become stuck at the level of Maya

and can't clearly see to Her transcendent aspects.

 

 

So any comments anyone ?

 

 

Om ParaShaktiye Namaha

[Guest guest]

shrIH

 

--- "Nora <ashwini_puralasamy"

<ashwini_puralasamy wrote:

>

>

> She is one and the other -- unlike Shaivism and

> Vaishnavism, She

> doesn't call on us to deny sex or any other material

> things,

> pleasureable or otherwise.

 

 

Namaste,

 

Is there any proof for the above statement?

 

Can you please tell me where and how does Shaivism

and Vaishnavism deny enjoying material pleasures?

 

Did somebody write that? If so I would like to know

how much of Shaivism and Vaishnavism that individual

is familair with.

 

Thx & rgds,

satish.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Vanakkam Satish

 

On behalf of member D, I like to apologise if those words troubles

you. This conversation was held via the chat line and he stress many

time, it is his personal opinion. As you have pointed out, you would

like to know how much of Shaivism and Vaishnavism member D is

familair with. I will send him this question and I hope he will reply

as soon as possible.

 

Thank you for your promp response. I really hope to hear more from

you.

[Guest guest]

I asked the question just because I felt a certain

statement may not be true. I was not troubled at all,

and so no need for any apology.

Thx

 

 

--- "Nora <ashwini_puralasamy"

<ashwini_puralasamy wrote:

> Vanakkam Satish

>

> On behalf of member D, I like to apologise if those

> words troubles

> you. This conversation was held via the chat line

> and he stress many

> time, it is his personal opinion. As you have

> pointed out, you would

> like to know how much of Shaivism and Vaishnavism

> member D is

> familair with. I will send him this question and I

> hope he will reply

> as soon as possible.

>

> Thank you for your promp response. I really hope to

> hear more from

> you.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I cannot quote line and verse to-day but i remember reading :" where there is

bhukthi, there is no mukthi and where there is mukthi there is no bhukthi; only

Sri Vidya gives both bhukthi and mukthi".

Thats why lalita is said to be "Bhukthi Mukthi pradaayinI"

I am just paraphrasing what i remember. I will give the exact verse within a few

days. The book has been taken by a friend.

asr <sadaashiva wrote:shrIH

 

--- "Nora <ashwini_puralasamy"

<ashwini_puralasamy wrote:

>

>

> She is one and the other -- unlike Shaivism and

> Vaishnavism, She

> doesn't call on us to deny sex or any other material

> things,

> pleasureable or otherwise.

 

 

Namaste,

 

Is there any proof for the above statement?

 

Can you please tell me where and how does Shaivism

and Vaishnavism deny enjoying material pleasures?

 

Did somebody write that? If so I would like to know

how much of Shaivism and Vaishnavism that individual

is familair with.

 

Thx & rgds,

satish.

 

 

 

Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.

http://mailplus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

shrIH

Namaste,

 

That is just an exaggeration. Such praises are used

so as to create an interest in the sadhaka. They are

called arthavaada( meaning exaggeration). Such

exaggerations are found at the end of many stotras and

even in some parts in Vedas, I was told.

 

If we take Shiva Purana, it has similar statements

when speaking about Shaiva mantras and so does any

Vaishnava Purana about Vaishnava devatas and mantras.

 

As an aside:Personally I see Shakta and Srividya

systems as seperate things(even though the differences

are not that great). I can be wrong here.

 

rgds

 

 

--- sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote:

>

> I cannot quote line and verse to-day but i remember

> reading :" where there is bhukthi, there is no

> mukthi and where there is mukthi there is no

> bhukthi; only Sri Vidya gives both bhukthi and

> mukthi".

> Thats why lalita is said to be "Bhukthi Mukthi

> pradaayinI"

> I am just paraphrasing what i remember. I will give

> the exact verse within a few days. The book has been

> taken by a friend.

> asr <sadaashiva wrote:shrIH

>

> --- "Nora <ashwini_puralasamy"

> <ashwini_puralasamy wrote:

> >

> >

> > She is one and the other -- unlike Shaivism and

> > Vaishnavism, She

> > doesn't call on us to deny sex or any other

> material

> > things,

> > pleasureable or otherwise.

>

>

> Namaste,

>

> Is there any proof for the above statement?

>

> Can you please tell me where and how does

> Shaivism

> and Vaishnavism deny enjoying material pleasures?

>

> Did somebody write that? If so I would like to

> know

> how much of Shaivism and Vaishnavism that individual

> is familair with.

>

> Thx & rgds,

> satish.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

kochuji,

 

you know very well as a practicing tantrik that in tantra 'bhoga' can

be converted into yoga not by denying the sex energy but by

transcending it !

 

yes, kochukji, our divine mother is a treasure house of all creative

energies - including 'sexual' energy, which is one of the most vital

energies... she is 'sarva-kala-valli' -well versed in all 64 arts ...

 

our divine mother is a creatrix and a nurturer and a sustainer and

also a devourer!

 

how is she a 'creatrix' - from her womb, the whole universe is

born...

 

she is the 'cause' of creation!

 

in the Kankalamalini Tantra, it is stated

 

"Women are divine, women are life, women are jewels. One should

always be either amongst hosts of women or with one's own woman. When

she is on the breast of a sadhaka in sexual intercourse, then

speedily she becomes like the cow of plenty" - Devirahasya

 

in sree lalita sahasaranama. devi is addressed as

"salutations to one with the yoni mudra."

 

but one cannot discuss the yoni mudra in a group setting such as this

as it is the very form of the 'absolute' !

 

"yoni of the devi is the primordial (Adya) form of Prakriti

(nature). It is Kundalini and Mahakundalini"

 

 

GOddess is not 'sexual' in the mundane way in which we interpret

sexuality!

 

if one reads the sree lalita sahasaranama , there are several

instances where the goddess'sphysical beauty is described - her wavy

hair, her shining teeth, her slender waist, her big breasts, her moon

like face, her lotus eyes, her rosy cheeks, her red lips, so on and

so forth...

 

but anyone who reads sree lalta sahasaranama knows that sree lalita

devi is beyond the physical realm - she is transcedental...

 

in all of saundarya lahari, devi's big breasts are the subject of

adoration and worship...

 

in one of the verses, adi shankara compares the two breasts to sun

and moon how ? because devi dispels 'ignorance' - she illumines us

like the sun and moon- the breats here represent the 'nurturing'

qualities of the mother- just as an infant grows by drinking

the 'milk' from the mother's breats, we also grow in our spiritual

path if we take refuge in devi's nurturing form!

 

there is a metaphysical meaning and there is a literal meaning!

 

those who look at the shiva-linga with 'ordinary' eyea may say 'oh

these hindus are worshipping the sex organs' but anyone who is well

versed in hinduism knows that the shiva lings stands for the ultimate

union of purusha and prakriti!

 

the other day ai was celebratig'eid' feast with a muslim friend and

she asked "why we hindus worship idols made by human hand..s?

 

i asked her who made you and me and the human hands?

 

guys, here is rumi verse...

 

 

A craftsman pulled a reed from the reedbed,

cut holes in it, and called it a human being.

 

Since then, it's been wailing a tender agony

of parting, never mentioning the skill

that gave it life as a flute.

 

**************************************************************

shakti is sri vidya herself!

 

our divine mother in in everything and she herself is everything!

 

 

that is why all this discussion is only 'academic' or theoretical...

 

as our beloved shri ramakrishna says' even the six darshanas could

not understand kali"

 

namaskar!

 

ps -kochuji, accept our congratulations on becoming the 'moderator' -

and sending you my best wishes on a well-deserved promotion!

[Guest guest]

Pranams sadaashiva.

 

Is there a sciptural basis for the idea of arthavaada? If someone just

decides that one part of a Veda is an "exagerration," who is to say

that ALL of it is also not "exaggeration?"

 

AUM

 

, asr <sadaashiva> wrote:

> shrIH

> Namaste,

>

> That is just an exaggeration. Such praises are used

> so as to create an interest in the sadhaka. They are

> called arthavaada( meaning exaggeration). Such

> exaggerations are found at the end of many stotras and

> even in some parts in Vedas, I was told.

[Guest guest]

>in sree lalita sahasaranama. devi is addressed as

>"salutations to one with the yoni mudra."

>but one cannot discuss the yoni mudra in a group setting such as

>this

>as it is the very form of the 'absolute' !

 

 

Namaste maa,

 

my 2c- yoni mudra is a mudra performed with the hand, in fact one of

the most powerful mudras, it is primarily used to transmute the

sexual energy, perhaps the reference to the yoni mudra in the LS, is

in this context and no other?

 

yogaman

[Guest guest]

> > She is one and the other -- unlike Shaivism and

> > Vaishnavism, She

> > doesn't call on us to deny sex or any other material

> > things,

> > pleasureable or otherwise.

>

 

 

Namaste!

 

In the grand opus of saiva siddhanta, tirumantiram, tirumoolar

although a staunchly vaidika supportor, does tell about some

vamachara practices. in other saiva streams like aghora and

kapalikas, they are blatantly sexual.

 

of vaishnavas, the sahajiyas(followers of krishna-radha) used to

engage in sexual orgies in the past; in fact then sex was considered

to be of a more vaishnava practice than shakta.

 

But yes Nora, the general stereotype is that shaktas alone permit sex

and salvation, others are too reclusive.

 

yogaman

[Guest guest]

<sivadancer>" <sivadancer> wrote:

> Pranams sadaashiva.

>

> Is there a sciptural basis for the idea of arthavaada? If someone

just

> decides that one part of a Veda is an "exagerration," who is to

say

> that ALL of it is also not "exaggeration?"

 

 

Yes. The concept of arthavada arises from the scriptures itself.

 

I meant to convey that it s not a concept outside of scriptures.

 

there is a way to decide what is exaggeration and what is not

 

probably somewhere in the mImAMsa shAshtra..but I do not know

 

how they do it.

 

Another way to decide if something may be exaggeration is to

compare with other scriptures of same status. if they say something

very different or something opposite, then both cannot be true(or

one should be false then, right? which one?), and the scripture does

not contradict itself so they are attributed arthavaada.

 

rgds

satish.

 

>

> AUM

>

> , asr <sadaashiva> wrote:

> > shrIH

> > Namaste,

> >

> > That is just an exaggeration. Such praises are used

> > so as to create an interest in the sadhaka. They are

> > called arthavaada( meaning exaggeration). Such

> > exaggerations are found at the end of many stotras and

> > even in some parts in Vedas, I was told.

[Guest guest]

söndagen den 15 december 2002 16.44 skrev asr:

> Can you please tell me where and how does Shaivism

> and Vaishnavism deny enjoying material pleasures?

 

I have been lurking here for a while, but here I find an intriguing subject

matter that I would like to write about.

 

Vaisnavas are not against sex, they are against Maya and what is illusory.

 

The problem with sex (in the material workd) is that it is so attractive and

binding that people are willing to give up everything, their spiritual

practices, and even themselves for it.

Sex, or lust (kama) is an act of the material body. The bodies are programmed

to have a great attraction to sex, and it is almost an automatic function of

the bodies to have sex. There is no education, knowledge, or other things

needed. It is a kind of animal act to reproduce, even with the human bodies.

 

Sex is harmless, if it is done like any other act, without attachement and

without lust. At least in the tradition I know about, most Vaisnavas were

married, had families and children. The problem is not sex in itself, but the

motivation.

 

A problem is that many persons mix up love and sex, thinking they both are the

same. Or maybe many think sex is love, and don't know about any other form of

love.

 

The Vaisnava process is a process of developing spiritual life. Meaning

developing spritual senses, spiritual feelings, spiritual thinking, and so

on. Most conditioned persons have no idea what that is all about. They are

completely trapped by the illusion that this material existence, with all the

troubles of daily material life, is all there is, and that there is nothing

more. But spiritual life, according to the Vaisnava conception, is something

else. Something new. Something common people have no idea about.

 

Sex attraction is taken as a kind of measurement how much that spiritual other

thing is developed. If a person thinks that sex life is the best there is,

there is nothing else, and can't detach him/herself from it, that person have

not developed that other spiritual conciousness.

 

According to Vaisnava understanding, everything in the material world is

patterned on something spiritual. Maybe like a movie is patterned on real

existence. Everything that is there in the real existence is there on the

movie screen, but what is not on the movie screen is actually not real. It is

only two dimensional, it is kind of static, and it goes automatic. The people

in the movie are not real people. They are kind of illusory. In the same way,

this world is seen as illusory. I kind of movie image of the real existence.

Therefore this existence is considered useless, and an illusion, just like

the life on the movie screen is useless and illusory. If someone see a love

scene, on the movie, and see sex, and is completely attached to it, thinking

that is the best thing there is, that person is really deep in illusion. Real

sex is so much more than just watching a movie.

In the same way, if someone thinks this sex life, in this material existence

is fantastic, the best there is, and all there is, is also in illusion. Sex

life is patterned on something else, something spiritual, and what happens in

the material world is just a shadow, an illusion.

 

A Vaisnava denies the illusion as reality, is trying to develop the vision to

see the real thing that this world is patterned on, and think sex life is as

useless compared to spiritual feelings, just like a normal person might think

that sex life on the movie screen is useless compared to real sex.

 

Love is a kind of spiritual feeling. Pure love, without contamination of lust.

So love without sex, can be one way to start to understand spiritual

feelings. Sex without love is pure material lust, useless for spiritual

purposes, since it drags down into illusion instead of pulling up.

 

Ok, I have written many words on this. This is the Vaisnava understanding, or

one Vaisnava understanding as I see it. Vaisnavas deal with the sexual energy

in the form of sex in the material world mainly by avoiding it. The

relationship between Radha and Krishna (which is common by Vaisnavas to

worship) is a spiritual relationship, not material. It is not lust. It is the

real "sex" that material sex is the shadow of. It can not be understood by

the path of material sex. Shakats, as far as I understand, have a little bit

different system and a different viewpoint. I don't see that as a

contradiction.

 

-- Prisni

[Guest guest]

söndagen den 15 december 2002 16.44 skrev asr:

> Can you please tell me where and how does Shaivism

> and Vaishnavism deny enjoying material pleasures?

 

Another viewpoint (I am not sure my first letter came to the list. It first

bounced)

 

Some things are "forbidden" for small children. For example, to play with

knives, and to play with fire. But are those things forbidden because some

big God has decided that it is sinful for small children to play with knifes

and with fire? No, those things are forbidden because the child does not know

how to handle those things, and there is a very big chance that the child

will hur itself, and others if using them. Not until the child grow up, and

mature enough to understand that you can cut yourself on a knife, and that

fire burns, is the child "allowed" to use those things. Some naughty child

might play with fire anyway, not caring for useless restrictions and do

something really nasty like burning down a house. I have witnessed a big barn

full of hay burning down, just because some naughty boy "played" with fire,

thinking it was a usless restriction that grown up put on him.

 

So in a similar way, there are rules and restrictions put on those who want to

thread religious paths. Those rules and not there just out of wims, but since

before one knows how to handle "dangerous" things, it is almost impossible to

not hurt oneself and others using them. Therefore they are forbidden. A

naughty person, not liking restrictions, might do such a thing anyway, with

the result that (s)he will most likely hurt her/himself very severely

spiritually.

 

A child might still use the knife, under strict supervision of a grown up, and

then use it a special, almost ritualistic way. And that way tame the danger

of the sharp knife and get used to it and do something useful with it.

 

Sex is often "forbidden". I see that as a cautious rule. That before one know

how and why sex is forbidden, one is almost sure to hurt oneself on it, and

is completely unable to use it for spiritual uplifting. As long as one does

not know how it is dangerous, one is quite certain not to be mature enough to

use it. So better stay off from it (for spiritual purposes).

 

There might be rituals, where sex is used for spiritual purposes, but with a

strict ritual and under "adult" supervision, just like a knife can be used by

a child, when used in a very specific "ritual" way and under supervision by

an adult. Just note that such rituals should not be performed if they are not

known to 100% and without supervision of someone. A child can use a knife

ritually, but if something is slightly wrong in the ritual, the child might

cut off a finger or something. The knife is only harmless as long as the

ritual is performed correctly to 100% and there is adult supervision to

correct any mistakes.

 

Prisni

[Guest guest]

yes, dear one, you are right about yoni mudra in 'yoga' but the one i

am referring to is the tantras ( i think vamakeshatantra) where

sadashivs reveals this esoteic tattwa to his consort, shakti and

there are some rituals connected with this practice which are

strictly kep 'secret' ..pl somebody help me out on this... .

 

 

on another note, i know the shujiya sect you are referring to in sree

visshnavism - it is about the high class priest faaling in love with

a low caste dombi woman - it is also part of the 'bau;' sect where

THE MAN MAKES LOVE NOT TO HIS OWN WIFE BUT TO ANOTHER WOMAN ! tHIS IS

BEACAUSE WHEN YOU MAKE LOVE TO YOUR OWN WIFE THERE IS EXPECTATIONS .

ATTACHMENT AND PASSION BUT WHEN YOU MAKE LOVE TO ANOTHER WOMAN WHO IS

NOT WEDDED TO UOU, THERE IS A SPIRIT OF DETATCHMENT - you can indulge

in the mundane act to reach 'sublime' heights...

 

but, i know prisni's viewpoints and i appreciate and honor them - she

is talking aboutvaishnavism where sree radha's love for she krishna

is in the realm of 'madhurya' bhava - transcedental ;ove... more on

this later...

 

but, you are right our beloved shiva and shakti are known for

their'amorous; adventures,,, and there is nothing'immoral' about it!!

but kameshwera's love was always directed towards kameshweri!

 

 

most hindu gods have more than one wife- karthikeya has valli and

devayani- sree vishnu 's wives are bhudevi and sreedevi , lord

krishna 's wives are rukmani and satyabhama and the list extends...

 

in tantras, sex is never considered 'obscene' or 'immoral' - it is

one of the 'tools' to transcend the mundane to reach the divine!

 

in a hurry, rushing to a dance concert... pl excuse any errors!

 

love

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

[Guest guest]

On a 'lighter note' one is reminded of the story of the Christian

Monks who lived in cloister. Their seva was to copy ancient texts by

hand and the monastery had been at this task for centuries. Each time

they finshed the ancient text then would send out the copy that they

had just copied from and start again from the one they just had

finished. One day a new administrator came and upon examining the

process pointed out to the vicar that at some point in time someone

could have made 'an error' in transliteration. The vicar went to the

basement of the monastery where the originals had been stored

untouched for centuries. Hours later there was a death-rattling cry

form the basement. The monks all went running and found the vicar

gasping for breath and in shock. Upon inquiring as to the problem he

pointed to a page of the ancient text and uttered his final words,

'the word is celebrate'.

 

 

On a more serious note i have always been taught that part of the

yogic process is 'urdhvareta' the upward flow of the seminal fluid.

So perhaps we can add this aspect to this discussion. f

[Guest guest]

There is nothing that secretive of yoni Muda except that it is difficult to

perform except with long practice. The fingers will not surrender stiffness

easily. Here is the Yonimudra for any one interested.

 

 

"childoThere is nothing all that secretive of Yoni Mudra and it is in fdevi

<childofdevi" <childofdevi wrote:>in sree lalita

sahasaranama. devi is addressed as

>"salutations to one with the yoni mudra."

>but one cannot discuss the yoni mudra in a group setting such as

>this

>as it is the very form of the 'absolute' !

 

 

Namaste maa,

 

my 2c- yoni mudra is a mudra performed with the hand, in fact one of

the most powerful mudras, it is primarily used to transmute the

sexual energy, perhaps the reference to the yoni mudra in the LS, is

in this context and no other?

 

yogaman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

 

 

[Guest guest]

> on another note, i know the shujiya sect you are referring to in

sree

> visshnavism - it is about the high class priest faaling in love

with

> a low caste dombi woman - it is also part of the 'bau;' sect where

> THE MAN MAKES LOVE NOT TO HIS OWN WIFE BUT TO ANOTHER WOMAN ! tHIS

IS

> BEACAUSE WHEN YOU MAKE LOVE TO YOUR OWN WIFE THERE IS

EXPECTATIONS .

> ATTACHMENT AND PASSION BUT WHEN YOU MAKE LOVE TO ANOTHER WOMAN WHO

IS

> NOT WEDDED TO UOU, THERE IS A SPIRIT OF DETATCHMENT - you can

indulge

> in the mundane act to reach 'sublime' heights...

>

 

in sahajiya vaishnavism, this is known as svakiya(intercourse with

one's own wife) and parakiya(with a mistress); the parakiya bhava is

extolled because the mistress stakes everything in her life to meet

her loved one- this is how one should approach God, that one should

be willing to risk away everything to meet with GOD. during the

middle ages there was a perversion of this attitude and people began

to take it literally..

 

NOW, i am not suggesting that all the menfolk keep mistresses ok, lol

 

yogaman

[Guest guest]

>

> On a more serious note i have always been taught that part of the

> yogic process is 'urdhvareta' the upward flow of the seminal fluid.

> So perhaps we can add this aspect to this discussion. f

 

namaste frank!

 

i have always experienced currents that go up and down my spine,

sometimes these are under my conscious control, sometimes not...the

thing is i have never been able to get this current that originates

at the base chakra to fully enter into my head.

 

once when i was studying to be a shisya under satguru

sivasubramuniya swami, i was following a period of strict celibacy

(gurudeva requires this of all his sishyas); under some circumstances

which i cannot speak out, gurudeva blessed me with oordhvaretas, that

is the seminal energy fully entered the head-this i could maintain

only for 2 days. and during those 2 days, i had a photographic

memory, meaning that if i quickly glanced through the pages of a

book, everything could be recalled quickly;my comprehension rate

increased 100 fold and during the period, i was full of such

boundless energy and needed very little sleep. i have been trying to

recapture this experience ever since but have never been successful.

the closest that i can get is with vigorous hatha yoga(the headstand

for 1/2 hour is the best).can anyone help me out here?

 

oordhvaretas is the most powerful way of self-improvement-certainly

there is nothing as powerful as the sexual energy, if this can be

directed as one desires, then there is nothing that the individual

cannot achieve(this is agreed upon by no less a personage than

napolean hill himself, the father of the science of success in the

west).

 

yogaman

[Guest guest]

shrIH

Namaste,

 

Thanx for sharing this with us.

 

I totally agree. Many saints, Shaktas, Srividyopasakas

hold the same view.

 

Apart from shirshasana, yogamudra, and halasana should

help. Pranayama also seems to help.

just some of my preferences. i am sure there will

be more. you may also refer reading some patanjali

yoga sutras.The one by Swami Hariharananda Aranya is

good.

 

rgds

 

--- "childofdevi <childofdevi"

<childofdevi wrote:

> >

> > On a more serious note i have always been taught

> that part of the

> > yogic process is 'urdhvareta' the upward flow of

> the seminal fluid.

> > So perhaps we can add this aspect to this

> discussion. f

>

> namaste frank!

>

> i have always experienced currents that go up and

> down my spine,

> sometimes these are under my conscious control,

> sometimes not...the

> thing is i have never been able to get this current

> that originates

> at the base chakra to fully enter into my head.

>

> once when i was studying to be a shisya under

> satguru

> sivasubramuniya swami, i was following a period of

> strict celibacy

> (gurudeva requires this of all his sishyas); under

> some circumstances

> which i cannot speak out, gurudeva blessed me with

> oordhvaretas, that

> is the seminal energy fully entered the head-this i

> could maintain

> only for 2 days. and during those 2 days, i had a

> photographic

> memory, meaning that if i quickly glanced through

> the pages of a

> book, everything could be recalled quickly;my

> comprehension rate

> increased 100 fold and during the period, i was full

> of such

> boundless energy and needed very little sleep. i

> have been trying to

> recapture this experience ever since but have never

> been successful.

> the closest that i can get is with vigorous hatha

> yoga(the headstand

> for 1/2 hour is the best).can anyone help me out

> here?

>

> oordhvaretas is the most powerful way of

> self-improvement-certainly

> there is nothing as powerful as the sexual energy,

> if this can be

> directed as one desires, then there is nothing that

> the individual

> cannot achieve(this is agreed upon by no less a

> personage than

> napolean hill himself, the father of the science of

> success in the

> west).

>

> yogaman

>

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Very often, I am asked if I believe in the existence of God. I cannot and should

not say that there is no God, because if I do, I will be hurting the sentiments

of a lot of people.

I think God lives within us. God is a very powerful thought that inspires us — a

power one wants to experience. When you stand in front of an idol and seek

solace and peace then God gives you solace and peace. You pray and you achieve

what you want.

Belief is very important. The voice from within is very crucial. It’s not that

one should set out on a journey to find or seek the power that brings one peace.

You can’t ever be certain to find it in a temple, a mosque, a church or a

gurudwara. You have to find it within. I do not visit religious places and I do

not follow such rituals. I think it’s a superstition to look for God in idols.

In my film Guide, the protagonist, Raju, is an atheist. He tries to steal prasad

when there is a severe draught in the area and he is fasting to appease the rain

Gods. It is the faith that the villagers put in him and his fast unto death that

pricks his conscience and stops Raju from stealing prasad. For the villagers, it

is Raju who brings rain. And even though he dies in the end, he becomes immortal

for the villagers who believed in him.

 

I strongly believe that one needs to listen to that inner voice and have a

strong conscience. We are intelligent enough to discriminate the good from the

bad. We must try not to hurt anybody and live peacefully.(As told to Divya

Vasisht)

 

"childofdevi <childofdevi" <childofdevi wrote:> on

another note, i know the shujiya sect you are referring to in

sree visshnavism - it is about the high class priest faaling in love

with a low caste dombi woman - it is also part of the 'bau;' sect where

> THE MAN MAKES LOVE NOT TO HIS OWN WIFE BUT TO ANOTHER WOMAN ! tHIS

IS

> BEACAUSE WHEN YOU MAKE LOVE TO YOUR OWN WIFE THERE IS

EXPECTATIONS .

> ATTACHMENT AND PASSION BUT WHEN YOU MAKE LOVE TO ANOTHER WOMAN WHO

IS

> NOT WEDDED TO UOU, THERE IS A SPIRIT OF DETATCHMENT - you can

indulge

> in the mundane act to reach 'sublime' heights...

>

 

in sahajiya vaishnavism, this is known as svakiya(intercourse with

one's own wife) and parakiya(with a mistress); the parakiya bhava is

extolled because the mistress stakes everything in her life to meet

her loved one- this is how one should approach God, that one should

be willing to risk away everything to meet with GOD. during the

middle ages there was a perversion of this attitude and people began

to take it literally..

 

NOW, i am not suggesting that all the menfolk keep mistresses ok, lol

 

yogaman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

dear heart,

 

you have captured the essence or tattwa beautifully...

 

"because the mistress stakes everything in her life to meet

her loved one- this is how one should approach God, that one should

be willing to risk away everything to meet with GOD."

 

exactly! kiddo- my yoga-child!

 

a verse goes like this...

 

yugayitam nimesena

caksusa pravrsayitam

sunyayitam jagat sarvam

govinda-virahena me

 

"without seeing Govinda , the whole world is vacant. " -shunyatim

jagat sarvam , govinda virahena me!

 

Here the emphasis is on -seperation - viraha - not sambhogha or

union...

 

"Oh, I feel so miserable; if i blink my eyes even for one second, i

cannot see my krishna" -is the lamentation of the love-lorn gopis...

one minute ( mnimasena) looks like a yuga ( r eternity) ... caksusa

pravrsayitam ( blinking of the eyes- or closing the eys)

 

This is LOVE- this is Mahabhava - highest bhava of devotion...

 

 

this is how love or madurya rasa is depicted in sree vaishanavism !

 

not 'perverted' love but 'divine' love'

 

***************************************************************************

 

kochu!

 

yoni tattwa is not just limited to yoni mudra alone - it includes but

not limited to yoni mudra - it is that (yoni mudra) and a whole lot

more-

 

why is this tattwa so secretive and should be imparted only to those

who are in the heroic mode of worship ( or divyas)

 

in this Kali Yuga , there is more 'lust' than 'love' and because of

this they fail to recognize womam (shakti) to be the image of the

deity...

 

that is why , in this kali yuga the fifth tattwa ( maithuna) is only

allowed with one's own wife not anyone else...

 

"Shiva prohibited sadhana with the last tattva, with parakiya, and

sadharani shakti, in the case of men of ordinary weak intellect ruled

by lust; but for those who have by sadhana conquered their passions

and attained the state of a true vira, or siddha, there is no

prohibition as to the mode of latasadhana."

 

without the panchatattwa in one form or another, shakti puja is

incomplete...

 

"Wine signifies the power (shakti) which produces all fiery elements;

meat and fish all terrestrial and aquatic animals; mudra all

vegetable life; and maithuna the will (ichchha) action (kriya) and

knowledge (jnana) shakti of the Supreme Prakriti productive of that

great pleasure which accompanies the process of creation."

 

" The object of all sadhana is the stimulation of the sattvaguna.

When by such sadhana this guna largely preponderates, the sattvika

sadhana suitable for men of a high type of divyabhava is adopted. In

this latter sadhana the names of the panchatattva are used

symbolically for operations of a purely mental and spiritual

character. Thus, the Kaivalya says that "wine" is that intoxicating

knowledge acquired by yoga of the Parabrahman, which renders the

worshipper senseless as regards the external world. Meat (mangsa) is

not any fleshly thing, but the act whereby the sadhaka consigns all

his acts to Me (Mam). Matsya (fish) is that sattvika knowledge by

which through the sense of "mineness" the worshipper sympathizes with

the pleasure and pain of all beings. Mudra is the act of

relinquishing all association with evil which results in bondage, and

maithuna is the union of the Shakti Kundalini with Shiva in the body

of the worshipper."

 

"This, the Yogini Tantra says, is the best of all unions for those

who have already con-trolled their passions (yati). According to the

Agamasara, wine is the somadhara, or lunar ambrosia, which drops from

the brahmarandhra; Mangsa (meat) is the tongue (ma), of which its

part (angsha) is speech. The sadhaka, in "eating" it, controls his

speech. Matsya (fish) are those two which are constantly moving in

the two rivers Ida and Pingala. He who controls his breath by

pranayama (q.v.), "eats" them by kumbhaka. Mudra is the awakening of

knowledge in the pericarp of the great sahasrara Lotus, where the

Atma, like mercury, resplendent as ten million suns, and deliciously

cool as ten million moons, is united with the Devi Kundalini. The

esoteric meaning of maithuna is thus stated by the Agama: The ruddy-

hued letter Ra is in the Kunda, and the letter Ma, in the shape of

vindu, is in the mahayoni. When Makara (m), seated on the Hangsa in

the form of Akara (a), unites with rakara ®, then the Brahmajnana,

which is the source of supreme Bliss, is gained by the sadhaka, who

is then called atmarama, for his enjoyment is in the Atma. in the

sahasrara. This is the union on the purely sattvika plane, which

corresponds on the rajasika plane to the union of Shiva and Shakti in

the persons of their worshippers."

 

kochuji, that is the reason why these secrets arenot revealed to

those who are uninitiated...

 

on another note, you yourself admitted several posts ago that uou

have practiced all the 4 makaras except the fith one?

 

love

[Guest guest]

A long post ... if you have the patience to read till the end ...

==============================================================

 

The conscious intellect perceives the world through the five physical

senses. In this it sees the sun, the moon, the landscape, rivers and

forests, people and institutions built around people - families,

societies and nations. This is the first step. Then he leverages

knowledge and the powers of reasoning to deduce what lies behind the

physical world. Some "sees" the laws of physics and mathematics, he

deduces the "reason" behind seemingly magical events likes thunder

and lightning, heat and cold, health and disease. Others delve into

the depths of the mind and seek similar explanations for the

behaviour of individuals and collectives.

 

There are others, and it is these others who are the most interesting

to us, go even further. Pushing past the limitations of the five

physical senses as well as the limitations imposed by rational

inquiry, they explore the uncharted terrain that lies beyond what can

be described as the physical landscape or the mental mindscape. These

are mystics who have access to dimensions beyond those described in

time and space.

 

But the images that they perceive remain with them and them alone.

They cannot bring these images back and show them to - or share them

with - others who have not yet acquired the ability to perceive them.

Or if they do, the images get distorted beyond recognition and are

reduced to representations that may serve as a pointer to what it

seeks to represent. Consider ..

 

* If a three-dimensional sphere is represented on a two dimensional

paper, it either looks like a circle or suffers from the errors that

are inevitable in cartographic projections.

* A photograph of an event that extends in time, for example the

cascade of a waterfall, presents a representative snapshot without

conveying the sense of time.

* A person who is blind from birth cannot perceive the beauty of a

rainbow or the sunset just as one who is tone deaf cannot appreciate

the nuances of musical raaga.

* An illiterate person cannot understand the news as it appears in a

newspaper. He sees it as a series of alphabetic symbols separated by

punctuation marks and white space.

* One who is not trained in mathematics and physics cannot appreciate

the significance or rather "beauty" of the Theory of Relativity. He

sees the representation as a series of funny symbols.

 

A fortunate few acquires the ability to perceive the reality behind

the representation through various exercises, exertions and perhaps

by grace of the reality that is being sought to be seen.

 

But whatever is it that they see is something that gets grossly

distorted when it is brought back and represented in terms of the

symbols and images that are used in the "normal" world of conscious

intellects.

 

Which is why we have fantastic images of gods and goddesses and

descriptions of their supernatural powers.

So let us try to see or conjecture the nature of the reality - the

face of the divine - by extrapolating from the distorted

representation that is available to us. This is like ..

 

* Understanding the nature of a sphere by looking at its circular

representation together with the shadow that is also portrayed along

and "using" our knowledge of the third dimension.

* Understanding the Theory of Relativity by looking at the greek

symbols and "using" our knowledge of other branches of mathematics

and physics.

 

It is our premise that there is one and only one Reality and that the

observer and the observed is a part of a self similar pattern that

pervades every possible dimension of space, time and other as yet

undefined dimensions.

 

The part sees itself as a part of the whole as long it is deficient

in knowledge inputs. As it becomes aware of more and more facts - as

its "ignorance" decreases - it acquires a clearer and clearer picture

of the whole .... And this is where it proceeds towards convergence.

 

It is as if a small balloon is being blown up inside a far larger

balloon. As the smaller balloon expands with knowledge, the patterns

on its surface become more and more similar to the patterns on the

surface of the larger balloon. A three-dimensional balloon with

knowledge being represented as patterns on its quasi-two-dimensional

surface is of course a poor "representation" of the true phenomenon.

We need to extrapolate it to an N dimensional balloon expanding with

the knowledge represented on its quasi-[N-1] dimensional "surface".

 

At the point of convergence, often referred to as revelation or

samadhi, the smaller balloon becomes as large as the bigger, outer

balloon, and the patterns on the two match exactly with each other.

That is yoga, the union of the individual with the universal. The

nature of the seeker is identical to the nature of the that that is

being sought. tat tvam asi ... shivoham !

 

That is nice. The small balloon that has become large enough to

converge with the big balloon is very happy - it is in a state of

absolute bliss. But what about the rest of us ? the other smaller

balloons, that are still trying to inflate ourselves with knowledge

but have still many years - or lives - to go ? What is the face of

the divine - albeit the distorted representation of the face - that

we see ?

 

We see the representations that the enlightened ones have

condescended to show towards us. And we interpret these

representations in terms of the concepts and symbols that are

available to us through our understanding of the physical world.

 

* We see the circle that represents the glowing sun and try to

interpret it in terms of the yellow fruit that we call an orange.

* We read the musical scores of Beethoven and Bach and try to relate

them to the flickering oscilloscopes of a physics laboratory.

* We believe - or rather we do not doubt - that Einstein is right in

his Theory of Relativity ... if it was wrong, then other scientists

would have disproved him .... But we have to be satisfied with

staring at the series of greek letters on the printed page.

 

So we peek into the smoky mirror and hope to see the nature of

Reality. And what do we see ? We see a world that stretches into the

distance - as far as our senses and intellect can perceive. A

universe that is infinite in both and time and space and in all other

possible dimensions. It is infinite and yet we note that it is

composed of an infinitely large number of cycles of creation,

stability and dissolution. We represent this flickering image of

flux and continuity as, or rather map it to, the only similar image

that we know that all living and conscious intellects are familiar

with : the image of birth and death.

 

So we grab this image of birth and death and hope and pray that it is

indeed a reasonable representation of what others who are more

advanced than us have perceived. And in this we are perhaps lucky.

Those who have seen the real image have assured us that Reality is

indeed self-similar and a part of the picture has quite a bit of

similarity with the whole. Hence we feel reasonably safe to represent

the ultimate Reality in terms of a continuous timeline of birth and

death ... or rather creation and destruction.

>From this perspective, the image of Kali on top of Shiva is very

appropriate.

 

This image of Kali - standing on top of Shiva and wearing ornaments

of human organs is one of the most enigmatic if not the most

controversial images that has come down to us from the dawn of

recorded history. In fact it is one of the most powerful

representations of the creation of the universe. Shiva represents the

absolute and undifferentiated Reality - the Brahman, without form and

without shape. When it desires to project itself in a physical form,

this desire takes the form of the creative principle, the power of

Shakti.

 

The act of creation is represented in the one and only primordial

creative process known to man - the act of sexual union. The naked

image of Kali poised on top of Shiva is actually an image of the act

of sex with the woman on top, controlling and guiding the creative

process or the translation of the intangible truth into its sensible

form in the physical world. The icon of the female represents the

burning desire of the Absolute to reveal itself and the act of sex -

the process of creation - is the reason for the existence of the

world.

 

This stark image of wanton desire is too difficult for most people to

handle in a social and family environment. Hence adepts who have

perceived this representation have tried to sanitise the image

through stylistic adaptations.

 

The celibate vedantists led by Shankaracharya have sought refuge in

the geometric forms of the Sri Yantra. That abstract diagram bypasses

the overt sexuality of the sexual act by through five downward

pointing triangles - that stand for Shakti, the woman on top -

superimposed on four upward pointing triangles that represent the

erection of the otherwise inert Shiva.

Those who are a little less inhabited, have retained the familiar

icons of man and woman but have diluted the impact by having Kali

stand on her beloved Shiva. However there are quite a few extant

images that show Shiva, even in this state, having a massive

erection - a throwback to the original image of the sexual union.

Also most hymns of Kali have a fleeting reference to her preference

for viparit rataturang - the reverse sexual position with the woman

on top.

 

Creation - and its representation as sexual union - is ofcourse just

half the story. The world is in a state of flux as it goes through

cycles of creation and destruction.

 

The destructive aspect of this iconography is of course very evident

in the violent visage of Kali as it cuts and chops down the world

through the passage of Time or Kala. What is created must be

destroyed and s/he who is the creator is also the destroyer.

 

That is why we have the image of simultaneous creation and

destruction. We see Kali in her lurid form, dripping blood and gore

as she goes about her task of destruction even as she is

participation in the creative process of sexual union. Not only does

she the tangible objects of the physical world, there are images

where she is shown destroying herself - in fact the world that she

represents. The most telling image that portrays this is found in the

representation of the Chinnamasta - where she chops off her own head

and drinks her own blood to rejuvenate herself.

 

This recursive image of creation and destruction, the act of giving

birth and the act of killing is perhaps the closest representation of

the process through which the world that we know exists in the space-

time continuum.

[Guest guest]

dearest yoga-child, it is my pleasure to bring to this great audience

here the love poems of vaishnava poet , vidyapati!

 

we have all heard of the bhakti poems (devotional) of saint mirabai

and sree aandaal !

 

Vidyapati (1352?-1448): Love Songs to Krishna

 

Vidyapati's love-songs re-create and reveal the world of Radha and

Krishna, the major erotic figures of Indian mythology and literature.

Such poems convey the devotion of Krishna's worshippers through the

metaphor of human erotic love.

 

Vidyapati is primarily concerned with the intense passion of Radha's

love. At once sensuous and sensual, descriptive and dramatic,

Vidyapati's songs range beyond the mythological only to find their

place in the heart of a human lover whose dreams and desires never

die, whose sighs and cries never end.

 

----

---------

In this poem, Krishna expresses his devotion to Radha, his principal

consort. Bites and fingernail marks are considered signs of passion

in Indian tradition (the Kama Sutra devotes an entire chapter to the

different patterns that may be made by fingernails on the lover's

skin; the associations are not sadistic, but more like "hickeys" in

American tradition). The language is violent, to express the power of

the union between worshipper and god; but note how the god plays the

submissive role in this poem, almost as if he were worshipping the

human woman.

 

----

For heaven's sake, listen, listen, O my darling

 

For heaven's sake, listen, listen, O my darling:

Do not dart your cruel, angry glances at me,

For I swear by the lovely pitchers of your breasts,

And by your golden, glittering, snake-like necklace:

If ever on earth I dare touch anyone except you,

Let your necklace turn into a real snake, and bite me;

And if ever my promise and words prove false,

Chastise me, O darling, in the way you want to.

But, now, don't hesitate to take me in your arms,

Bind, bind my thirsty body with yours; bruise me

With your thighs, and bite, bite me with your teeth.

Let your fingernails dig deep, deep into my skin!

Strangle me, for heaven's sake, with your breasts,

And lock me in the prison of your body forever!

----

All my inhibition left me in a flash

 

Krishna is a playful god, associated with tricks and games. In one of

the most famous incidents in the Krishna legend, he steals the

clothing of a group of bathing cowherds' wives (gopis) and exhorts

them to come forth from the water to reveal themselves. The religious

significance of this incident is that the believer must not hold back

from uniting fully with the divine, must be utterly devoted to the

god. Similar attitudes are expressed in the following poem in

relation to Radha.

----

All my inhibition left me in a flash,

When he robbed me of my clothes,

But his body became my new dress.

Like a bee hovering on a lotus leaf

He was there in my night, on me!

 

True, the god of love never hesitates!

He is free and determined like a bird

Winging toward the clouds it loves.

Yet I remember the mad tricks he played,

My heart restlessly burning with desire

Was yet filled with fear!

**********************************************************************

He promised he'd return tomorrow

 

 

In the final poem, Radha has to deal with her jealousy. Krishna is

the lover of all women (representing all humanity), and she cannot

hope to keep him to herself.

 

 

What functions do you think such a poem as this might play in a

polygamous society? Does it express women's feelings, or teach how

they should feel?

 

 

He promised he'd return tomorrow.

And I wrote everywhere on my floor:

"Tomorrow."

 

 

The morning broke, when they all asked:

Now tell us, when will your "Tomorrow" come?

Tomorrow, Tomorrow, where are you?

I cried and cried, but my Tomorrow never returned!

 

 

Vidyapati says: O listen, dear!

Your Tomorrow became a today

with other women.

 

Translated by Azfar Hussain

 

**********************************************************************

 

so guys, what do you think?

 

this is 'madurya' bhava at its best...

 

enjoy the deeper meaning behind these poems!

[Guest guest]

, "childofdevi

<childofdevi>" <childofdevi> wrote:

> >

> > On a more serious note i have always been taught that part of the

> > yogic process is 'urdhvareta' the upward flow of the seminal fluid.

> > So perhaps we can add this aspect to this discussion. f

>

> namaste frank!

>

> i have been trying to

> recapture this experience ever since but have never been successful.

> the closest that i can get is with vigorous hatha yoga(the headstand

> for 1/2 hour is the best).can anyone help me out here?

> yogaman

 

Dear Yogaman,

 

I will answer from my own experience and that is Gurukripa. It is a

very mundane sadhanna. Once you recieve his Grace you do what he has

told you to do and the rest will come. In my own sadhanna it is

simply meditation and japa. My only rituals are a short puja early

each morning to my Guru and then meditation. Everything comes of its

own. The Devi is Chitishakti she is there waiting. f

[Guest guest]

, "childofdevi

<childofdevi>" <childofdevi> wrote:

> >

> > On a more serious note i have always been taught that part of the

> > yogic process is 'urdhvareta' the upward flow of the seminal fluid.

> > So perhaps we can add this aspect to this discussion. f

>

> namaste frank!

>

> i have always experienced currents that go up and down my spine,

> sometimes these are under my conscious control, sometimes not...the

> thing is i have never been able to get this current that originates

> at the base chakra to fully enter into my head.

>

> once when i was studying to be a shisya under satguru

> sivasubramuniya swami, i was following a period of strict celibacy

> (gurudeva requires this of all his sishyas); under some circumstances

> which i cannot speak out, gurudeva blessed me with oordhvaretas, that

> is the seminal energy fully entered the head-this i could maintain

> only for 2 days. and during those 2 days, i had a photographic

> memory, meaning that if i quickly glanced through the pages of a

> book, everything could be recalled quickly;my comprehension rate

> increased 100 fold and during the period, i was full of such

> boundless energy and needed very little sleep.

>

> yogaman

 

Dear Yogaman,

 

I am not perhaps the best person to answer this. I think that the

first experience that you speak is the movement of the shakti 'up and

down your spine'.

 

The second seems to describe 'udana' which is the function of prana

that draws the seminal fluid upward. The seminal fluid is cosuumed by

the gastric fire from which it migrates to the brain. I think another

name for this is vajroli mudra. This is a great experience through the

grace of your Guru. If nothing else he has shown you what you are

capable of. I have had a similar experience and for me that has

remained the the driving force behind my sadhanna for many years. f