Guest guest Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 Hi, I'm new to the list and to this tradition in general. Pertaining to the subject of Shakti and Goddess worship, is there any kinship between this tradition and with the current Goddess movement that is going on in the West? Is there any such dialogue going on? Blessings, Songflower _______________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 > Hi, > I'm new to the list and to this tradition in general. Welcome in! > Pertaining to the > subject of Shakti and Goddess worship, is there any kinship between this > tradition and with the current Goddess movement that is going on in the > West? Is there any such dialogue going on? My personal opinion. In the West there was a saying (gender-neutral :-): "a slave can become a slave-master because he easily imagines himself such - but he cannot be a free man because his mentality doesn't have room for it." The Shakti worship in the East is emphasizing an aspect of Divinity that is closer to a given devotee than other aspect(s). The Goddess worship in the West is a movement of slaves who wish to become slave-masters. Thus there is no room for a constructive dialogue - nothing really to discuss: different goals, different means. Possibly the rhethorics can be shared? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 Hi Songflower: I am pleased to meet you. I'm a new member to this group, too. I've noticed that some members of this group don't understand a relationship between what you call the "current Goddess movement that is going on in the West" and Shakta, yet that does not mean that no kinship exists. Exploring for yourself within and without may reveal more of a connection than other people's answers to your post might indicate. Enjoy, Mary Ann , "Justine Thorpe" <songflower@h...> wrote: > Hi, > I'm new to the list and to this tradition in general. Pertaining to the > subject of Shakti and Goddess worship, is there any kinship between this > tradition and with the current Goddess movement that is going on in the > West? Is there any such dialogue going on? > > Blessings, > Songflower > > _______________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 >Hi, >I'm new to the list and to this tradition in general. Pertaining to the >subject of Shakti and Goddess worship, is there any kinship between this >tradition and with the current Goddess movement that is going on in the >West? Hi, Certainly there is kinship. There are also some differences. Both movements affirm that the Divine can be pictured and worshipped in feminine form. Both see that the Divine power pervades the world. There is much in the shakta tradition which will be familiar to western Goddess people. A major difference is the shakta tradition is a living culture of worship which has been practised continuously for well over one thousand years. (Some think much longer.) There are some parts of India (such as Calcutta) where it is the single most popular form of worship. There are centuries old temples -- not astral temples or virtual temples, but stone buildings which a visitor to India can see and touch. There are numerous books written in Indian languages by worshippers over the centuries -- sacred stories, hymns, writings about rituals and meditations -- which western scholars have only begun to explore. We westerners, unfortunately, do not have a heritage like this. >Is there any such dialogue going on? Actually there is dialogue going on right in this list! Some list members come from Indian families where Goddess worship is customary, while others are people from different backgrounds who are part of the current Goddess movement in the west. Blessings, Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 Namaste, I'm not understanding this thread. Would someone please clarify for me? West, what? West India? The "West" as in US/Europe? Goddess worship from what tradition? Where did this saying about slaves come from. I appreciate any input. prainbow , Mouse <uri@o...> wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm new to the list and to this tradition in general. > > Welcome in! > > > Pertaining to the > > subject of Shakti and Goddess worship, is there any kinship between this > > tradition and with the current Goddess movement that is going on in the > > West? Is there any such dialogue going on? > > My personal opinion. > > In the West there was a saying (gender-neutral :-): "a slave can become a > slave-master because he easily imagines himself such - but he cannot be > a free man because his mentality doesn't have room for it." > > The Shakti worship in the East is emphasizing an aspect of Divinity that > is closer to a given devotee than other aspect(s). > > The Goddess worship in the West is a movement of slaves who wish to > become slave-masters. > > Thus there is no room for a constructive dialogue - nothing really to > discuss: different goals, different means. Possibly the rhethorics can > be shared? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 Colin writes... " We westerners, unfortunately, do not have a heritage like this." well, colin i do need to make one point, though! please allow me! one thing we indians (specially hindus) are eternally grateful to western scholars. and some of whom are also initiated shaktas or tantriks, for the rich contributions they have made to the science of Tantra and shaktism... If it were not for Sir John Woodroffe ( aka ARTHUR AVALON) , how many of us ( including indians and westerners and other english speaking populace) would have heard of great tantrik texts!we certainly are forever indebted to this western scholar and initiated tantrik for all the exceelent translations available on tantra and shaktism.... certain other names of werstern scholars come readfily to mind who made devi gita, devi mahatmiyam, yoni tantra , dasha mahavidyas, the path of aghora etc avaliable to all english speaking audience! we oare again grateful to the following western scholars who have left a rich legacy for posterity... these names include but not limited to... Brooks, douglas Renfrew C. Mackenzie Brown Camphausen, Rufus Coburn, Thomas B David Kinsley feuerstein, Georg Johnsen, Linda Lysebeth, Andre Van AND ROBERT SVOBODA.... what about lex hixon who has made the wonderful poems of RAMPRASAD SEN and the story of shri shri ramakrishna paramahamsda avaialble tomwestern and other audiences? let us not forget romain rolland who has written beautiful books on shri ramakrishna and swami vivekananda.... So, tantra and shaktism may jhave originated in india but they have been popularized in the wetst by the wonderful translations by western scholars! wAS IT MARK TWAIN who said" east and west twain shall meet" ? love always.... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2003 Report Share Posted February 1, 2003 The Shakti worship in the East is emphasizing an aspect of Divinity that > is closer to a given devotee than other aspect(s). > > The Goddess worship in the West is a movement of slaves who wish to > become slave-masters. > Warm greetings all, I am new to this group and am wondering/pondering the above statement.. What in your opinion is the difference? Do you not think that those in the West are capable of true divine worship of the goddess? If so, why not? Where do these differences lie? Clover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2003 Report Share Posted February 1, 2003 Thanks Colin for clearing that up. I apologize if my question wasn't clear. I was referring to the Goddess-based/Earth-based/Neo- Pagan movement that has been gaining momentum in the US, Canada, Australia, and Europe for the past 20 years (that's what I referred to as "the West"). In this tradition, the earth is seen as sacred, as being the body and spirit of a Great Goddess, whos worship is suppose to extend back tens of thousands of years but was diminished nearly 6000 years ago in Europe when more patriarchal traditions and finally Judaism and Christianity took over. During the 1970s, as both the feminist and ecological movements in the US and Europe were emerging, there came a great deal of research dealing with the discoveries of Goddess cultures predating many known ancient civilizations. This idea fused with modern Wicca practices which were based in pre-Christian Pagan practices of Europe, as well as giving many feminist scholors/activists a name for the spirituality they had been seeking. I guess my question should have been, what is the view of the Goddess (as a whole deity/energy/idea)in Hindu tradtions and has there been any dialogue with those involved with the Western neo-Pagan/Goddess movement in the US/Europe? In the tradition which I come from (Goddess-based) the Goddess is seen as the embodiment of all aspects and is seen in nature as the Earth, moon, sea, serpent, spiral, etc and together with her Lover/Son the Horned God (embodiment of nature as seed, animal, all that is wild and free, Sun, etc). Yet I am very interested in Hindu traditions. Are there any parallels to this in Hinduism or in the Shakta tradition? I don't think I agree with Mouse's statement: if we are all slaves, then whom are we slaves to? The Goddess movment is more about using power that comes from within. Sorry this was so long. Blessings, Songflower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2003 Report Share Posted February 2, 2003 Hello Songflower, >I was referring to the Goddess-based/Earth-based/Neo- >Pagan movement that has been gaining momentum in the US, Canada, >Australia, and Europe for the past 20 years (that's what I referred >to as "the West")... Yes, I'm aware of the movement you're talking about. In this tradition, the earth is seen as sacred, >as being the body and spirit of a Great Goddess, whos worship is >suppose to extend back tens of thousands of years but was diminished >nearly 6000 years ago in Europe when more patriarchal traditions and >finally Judaism and Christianity took over. I'm aware that some writers think that is what happened. I guess my question should have been, what >is the view of the Goddess (as a whole deity/energy/idea)in Hindu >tradtions and has there been any dialogue with those involved with >the Western neo-Pagan/Goddess movement in the US/Europe? Certainly some dialogue has occurred. It is visible in the literature of the last few decades -- e.g. writers within the shakta tradition(s), (such as Ajit Mookerjee and Elizabeth Usha Harding) have read and quoted writers in the Western Goddess movement (such a Barbara Walker). And the influence goes both ways, because Barbara Walker has read and quoted literature by and about Indian Goddess worshippers. >In the >tradition which I come from (Goddess-based) the Goddess is seen as >the embodiment of all aspects and is seen in nature as the Earth, >moon, sea, serpent, spiral, etc and together with her Lover/Son the >Horned God (embodiment of nature as seed, animal, all that is wild >and free, Sun, etc). Yet I am very interested in Hindu traditions. >Are there any parallels to this in Hinduism or in the Shakta >tradition? The Devi Mahatmya (one of the best known and most revered shakta texts) calls the Goddess "Jaganmurtih" -- She Whose Form is the World. (Chapter 1 verse 64) It also mentions her as the Moon and as Moonlight. (Chapter 5 verse 10) Kundalini is a word I think many in the Western Goddess Movement will have heard. It is a Sanskrit word of feminine gender, which can be translated the Spiral One, or the Serpent. It is the Goddess power within every human being. One of Lord Shiva's titles is Pashupati, Lord of Animals. Shiva himself is not pictured as horned, but he does have a horned attendant, the bull Nandin. In short, there are quite a few parallels, though this doesn't mean that the two cultures of worship are exactly the same. >I don't think I agree with Mouse's statement: if we are >all slaves, then whom are we slaves to? Perhaps Mouse would like to explain further? Blessings, Colin Robinson (colinr) _________________________ To find out about Ferment, the journal about Kali as Great Goddess, go to www.yogamagik.com/ferment Up to date list of recent articles, photos of a shrine in Sydney, what people say about Ferment, how to contact us... _________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 > > The Goddess worship in the West is a movement of slaves who wish to > > become slave-masters. This is probably unnecessarily harsh statement, though it finds a mark in a typical Western Goddess worshipper [not every one of them, of course]. An attempt to spiritualize feminism, if I may say so. > I am new to this group and am wondering/pondering the above statement. > What in your opinion is the difference? The difference in in purpose and attitude. One attitude is of acknowledging the Divinity in all but being drawn to some aspects of it more than to the others. This is Holy (though ideally we revere and worship everything and nothing - not a particular part or aspect). Another is born of inner problems by way of rationalizing it and blaming the outside world: "the male partiarchal world is bad to me, so I glorify female". Divisiveness instead of Unification. > Do you not think that those in the West are capable of true divine worship > of the goddess? Some are capable and are worshipping. Others aren't. Those who seem to create and be a part of "establishment" do not appear capable to me. Perhaps I'm projecting my own shortcomings, but even so these observations appear correct. > If so, why not? Where do these differences lie? Those incapable are in that state because their purpose is to protest the existing world and change it into a similar one - but with them "in power" (whatever it may mean). While true worship is seeing the Unity in all the worlds and glorifying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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