Guest guest Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 - <sivadancer <> Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:02 PM Re: Seeking-Knowing-Becoming > Namaste Sandeep-ji, > > Shall we seek evil and pain then, too? The advent of any seeking, no matter about what, occurs from a sense of distinction , which thus births the duality and the preference of one pole over the other, within that duality. Whereas it is "evil", which makes goodness, "good". Thus can "good" ever exist, with out it's defining counter-part? The issue is not in what is sought, ........but seeking itself. > > Is there a pure KNOWING that remove the subject "we" or "I"? Various terminologies have been used to denote, point. To clarify, ........the sense of the personal entity, ......the personal self, which believes it is engaged in the seeking, ......hoping that what is sought, (whether it is profound spiritual trinkets or profane mundane icons)........, if that is obtained by some means, some methodology, following some path, doing some esoteric meditative practice, following some Guru, ...................the "sought" will address all it's issues, .........this sense of personal entitification is denoted by the term... "me". As contrasted by the term "I" ............which is used to denote Universality, or Impersonality or the Viraat, or Consciousness, or Noumenon, whatever. Just mere convention, but useful to clarify the convention. Now your question. Is there a state of knowing where the "me" is absent? To whom will such a state and thus the question about it, ...... be of relevance? Only to a "me", isn't it?:-) The question which you may like to pose to yourself,........ to whom is "enlightenment", "realization", "awakening" , "state of knowingness, "apperception",......be of any relevance, ........be of any interest? Yes, in phenomenality, there are the rare, non-volitional and acausal occurrences, "events",......where this sense of entitification is erased, in a particular body-mind complex. Popular media call such body-mind complexes as "enlightened sages". The so called erasure of the "me", is also a hilarity. For something can be erased, which has an apriori existence. The sense of entitification, ........the "me",........ is a notion, .........an ideation, .........an inference. Very powerful ideation. World Wars are fought over this ideation, (one seems to be coming up shortly) But still a notion. Ergo the erasure of a notion, can only be a notional event, is it not? That is why the wonder of awakening is described as the hilarious awakening of that which was never asleep ........and that put to rest which never was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 Seeking good to the exclusion of evil, or pleasure to the exclusion of pain, is like asking for there to be stars to the exclusion of space. Thus We can neither know nor become THAT which we already ARE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Namaste Sandeep-ji, Shall we seek evil and pain then, too? Is there a pure KNOWING that remove the subject "we" or "I"? AUM , Sandeep Chatterjee <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > > > Seeking good to the exclusion of evil, or pleasure to the exclusion of pain, > is like asking for there to be stars to the exclusion of space. > > Thus > > We can neither know nor become THAT which we already ARE. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been remove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Namaste Sandeep-ji, Therefore, is it simple to erase the ego notion, the aham, the asmita, the "I Am" notion? Is it simply done away with another notion that it is just a notion? I also must ask, have you erased your ego notion? If not, is it possible to expound upon the nature of knowing without having done so? Or is there more notion-creating? AUM , "Sandeep Chatterjee" <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > > - > <sivadancer> > <> > Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:02 PM > Re: Seeking-Knowing-Becoming > > > > Namaste Sandeep-ji, > > > > Shall we seek evil and pain then, too? > > The advent of any seeking, no matter about what, occurs from a sense of > distinction , which thus births the duality and the preference of one pole > over the other, within that duality. > > Whereas it is "evil", which makes goodness, "good". > > Thus can "good" ever exist, with out it's defining counter-part? > > > The issue is not in what is sought, ........but seeking itself. > > > > > > > Is there a pure KNOWING that remove the subject "we" or "I"? > > Various terminologies have been used to denote, point. > > To clarify, ........the sense of the personal entity, ......the personal > self, which believes it is engaged in the seeking, ......hoping that what is > sought, (whether it is profound spiritual trinkets or profane mundane > icons)........, if that is obtained by some means, some methodology, > following some path, doing some esoteric meditative practice, following some > Guru, ...................the "sought" will address all it's issues, > ........this sense of personal entitification is denoted by the term... > "me". > > As contrasted by the term "I" ............which is used to denote > Universality, or Impersonality or the Viraat, or Consciousness, or Noumenon, > whatever. > > Just mere convention, but useful to clarify the convention. > > Now your question. > > Is there a state of knowing where the "me" is absent? > > To whom will such a state and thus the question about it, ...... be of > relevance? > > Only to a "me", isn't it?:-) > > The question which you may like to pose to yourself,........ to whom is > "enlightenment", "realization", "awakening" , "state of knowingness, > "apperception",......be of any relevance, ........be of any interest? > > > Yes, in phenomenality, there are the rare, non-volitional and acausal > occurrences, "events",......where this sense of entitification is erased, in > a particular body-mind complex. > > Popular media call such body-mind complexes as "enlightened sages". > > The so called erasure of the "me", is also a hilarity. > > For something can be erased, which has an apriori existence. > > The sense of entitification, ........the "me",........ is a notion, > ........an ideation, .........an inference. > > Very powerful ideation. World Wars are fought over this ideation, (one seems > to be coming up shortly) > > But still a notion. > Ergo the erasure of a notion, can only be a notional event, is it not? > > That is why the wonder of awakening is described as the hilarious awakening > of that which was never asleep ........and that put to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Hiya. First of all there is no need for the "ji" :-) However if you prefer to continue, that too is appropriate. - <sivadancer <> Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:35 PM Re: Seeking-Knowing-Becoming > Namaste Sandeep-ji, > > Therefore, is it simple to erase the ego notion, the aham, the asmita, > the "I Am" notion? It is the simplest thing, for it never existed in the first place. And that is why, erasure of something which does not exist, just cannot be achieved, no matter what song and dance, you get upto. For any attempt to try to do so, no matter what is the nature or form of the particular attempt, ......is it not akin to trying to get rid of your shadow, by furiously stamping on it? Furiously stamping out a shadow, ........ a shadow which does not exist, where it does not fall. And also does not exist, where it does fall. Ofcourse there are schools, paths, trained experts, which teach you how to stamp on shadows, to get rid of it's obnoxious presence. There are even "claimants", who affirm they have achieved total success, in erasing this non-existing shadow and offer to give you a transmission of energy for you to also claim the same, ..........ofcourse for a fee. LOL All part of fun and games, which make up phenomenality. Or as the prattling goes,.........which occurred through a manifest object, which got labeled "Ramana".... "part of the thickening of the plot". > Is it simply done away with another notion that it is just a notion? That would be an oxymoron, would it not? That is why the apperception (which is not an understanding, nor a knowing, nor a realization, nor an experience), apperception of the notionality of phenomenality, is neither achievable through the heart or through the mind/intellect, and neither through any practice using either. A pointing to apperception, which is as much a conceptual term as any other, is ..........non-volitional, ....acausal, ...........one can even term it as a compassion of Grace. > > I also must ask, have you erased your ego notion? :-) Can a "you" erase an ego-notion? Is not the "you" seeking to erase the ego-notion, the very ego-notion? Just cleverly cloaked in the halo of spiritualism. There has been no entity, ever, who has been able to erase the apparently existing ego-notion. Ever. In any path, in any Organized Religion, in any "ism", in any sect. In any era, in any Kaal. Yes there has been the rare occassions, when the sense of entitification, the "me" has been non-volitionally , acausaly erased, in a particular body-mind complex. > If not, is it possible to expound upon the nature of knowing without having done so? Irrespective of whether the sense of entitification has ended or not, ..........functioning carries on, moment to moment to moment, ...........THROUGH a conditioned body-mind manifest object, ........until the body-mind complex is "alive". Impersonal Functioning carries on through a sage and through a clown. Expounding, (of whatever), if so in the moment, .......is a nuance of the impersonal functioning, in that moment. The quality, nature, depth or lack of depth, focus etc of the expounding, in the moment,......... is what is "fashioned" by the conditioning-in-the-moment in that instrument/ the body-mind complex .............and is thus expressed, in that moment. At the moment Dubya Bush is expounding on the evilness of the Iraq regime. He wants to end intolerance, through intolerance. Five decades back, through another manifest object, appropriately conditioned, the expounding of the tenet of 'Who am I?", happened. Both nuances of the same functioning. Expounding takes place in the moment, ..............there is no "one" to expound the expounding. Prattling takes place in the moment, ........there is no "one" to prattle the prattling. Writing takes place in the moment, ...... there is no author thereof. As the prattling occurred through another manifest object, appropriately conditioned, and labeled "Buddha" There is doing, but no doer thereof; There is suffering, but no sufferer thereof; There is a path, but none to travel on it; There is Nirvana, but none to attain it. or as the prattlings through the Upanashidic Rishis.... TWAM EVA KARTA, TWAM EVA BHOKTA (Thou art the doer, Thou art the experiencer); TWAM EVA SHROTA, TWAM EVA VAKTA (Thou art the listener, Thou art the speaker) Or as the prattlings through what is labeled as Islam. LA'ILLAHA IL'ALLAHU (There is no Reality but God; there is only God) Or the essence of the dude on the cross, which is not the stuff about Virgin birth, the miracles and the resurrection, but that one sentence that got expressed through a body-mind complex labeled "Jesus" .. .................Thine will, not mine. Interesting eh, .........the essence of all the expressions through all the dudes, around whom all the Organized Religion grew, the essence is the same. And yet, Organized Religion is the single biggest cause of all strife, all conflict, in the history of humanity. > Or is there more notion-creating? Whether it is, or it is not, .............to whom will it be,... so? To the recepient "me-entity" of these squiggly signs on the PC screen, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 Namaste Sandeep, Until ignorance is destroyed through proper practice, ego DOES exist. This is an Upanishadic truth. Also, your version of the Four Noble Truths has some interesting additions that only apply after the ignorance is removed by practices. This is the Third Noble Truth -- the Eightfold Path for the cessation of Sufferings. Even Buddha said that there IS suffering, there is ignorance, there IS ego and you have to practice to remove it. The main problem with any discussion about God/Consciousness is that it enters the intellectual realm, and no amount of intellectualizing will ever lead to true Knowledge. It is like a sword that is not quite sharp enough. But if you keep shaprening and keep trying, practicing, eventually you wear away the sword to nothingness...intellect goes out the window, and you're one step closer. AUM , Sandeep Chatterjee <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > > Hiya. > > First of all there is no need for the "ji" :-) > > However if you prefer to continue, that too is appropriate. > > > > - > <sivadancer> > <> > Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:35 PM > Re: Seeking-Knowing-Becoming > > > > Namaste Sandeep-ji, > > > > Therefore, is it simple to erase the ego notion, the aham, the asmita, > > the "I Am" notion? > > > > It is the simplest thing, for it never existed in the first place. > > And that is why, erasure of something which does not exist, just cannot be > achieved, no matter what song and dance, you get upto. > > For any attempt to try to do so, no matter what is the nature or form of the > particular attempt, ......is it not akin to trying to get rid of your > shadow, by furiously stamping on it? > > Furiously stamping out a shadow, ........ a shadow which does not exist, > where it does not fall. > And also does not exist, where it does fall. > > Ofcourse there are schools, paths, trained experts, which teach you how to > stamp on shadows, to get rid of it's obnoxious presence. > > There are even "claimants", who affirm they have achieved total success, in > erasing this non-existing shadow and offer to give you a transmission of > energy for you to also claim the same, ..........ofcourse for a fee. > > LOL > > All part of fun and games, which make up phenomenality. > > Or as the prattling goes,.........which occurred through a manifest object, > which got labeled "Ramana".... > > "part of the thickening of the plot". > > > > > > Is it simply done away with another notion that it is just a notion? > > > > That would be an oxymoron, would it not? > > That is why the apperception (which is not an understanding, nor a knowing, > nor a realization, nor an experience), apperception of the notionality of > phenomenality, is neither achievable through the heart or through the > mind/intellect, and neither through any practice using either. > > > A pointing to apperception, which is as much a conceptual term as any other, > is ..........non-volitional, ....acausal, ...........one can even term it as > a compassion of Grace. > > > > > > I also must ask, have you erased your ego notion? > > :-) > > Can a "you" erase an ego-notion? > > Is not the "you" seeking to erase the ego-notion, the very ego-notion? > > Just cleverly cloaked in the halo of spiritualism. > > There has been no entity, ever, who has been able to erase the apparently > existing ego-notion. > > Ever. > > In any path, in any Organized Religion, in any "ism", in any sect. > > In any era, in any Kaal. > > Yes there has been the rare occassions, when the sense of entitification, > the "me" has been non-volitionally , acausaly erased, in a particular > body-mind complex. > > > > > > If not, is it possible to expound upon the nature of knowing without > having done so? > > Irrespective of whether the sense of entitification has ended or not, > .........functioning carries on, moment to moment to moment, > ..........THROUGH a conditioned body-mind manifest object, .........until the > body-mind complex is "alive". > > Impersonal Functioning carries on through a sage and through a clown. > > Expounding, (of whatever), if so in the moment, .......is a nuance of the > impersonal functioning, in that moment. > > The quality, nature, depth or lack of depth, focus etc of the expounding, in > the moment,......... is what is "fashioned" by the > conditioning-in-the-moment in that instrument/ the body-mind complex > ............and is thus expressed, in that moment. > > > At the moment Dubya Bush is expounding on the evilness of the Iraq regime. > He wants to end intolerance, through intolerance. > > Five decades back, through another manifest object, appropriately > conditioned, the expounding of the tenet of 'Who am I?", happened. > > Both nuances of the same functioning. > > Expounding takes place in the moment, ..............there is no "one" to > expound the expounding. > > Prattling takes place in the moment, ........there is no "one" to prattle > the prattling. > > Writing takes place in the moment, ...... there is no author thereof. > > As the prattling occurred through another manifest object, appropriately > conditioned, and labeled "Buddha" > > There is doing, but no doer thereof; > There is suffering, but no sufferer thereof; > There is a path, but none to travel on it; > There is Nirvana, but none to attain it. > > or as the prattlings through the Upanashidic Rishis.... > > > TWAM EVA KARTA, TWAM EVA BHOKTA > (Thou art the doer, Thou art the experiencer); > > TWAM EVA SHROTA, TWAM EVA VAKTA > (Thou art the listener, Thou art the speaker) > > Or as the prattlings through what is labeled as Islam. > > LA'ILLAHA IL'ALLAHU > (There is no Reality but God; there is only God) > > > > Or the essence of the dude on the cross, which is not the stuff about > Virgin birth, the miracles > and the resurrection, but that one sentence that got expressed through a > body-mind complex labeled "Jesus" .. > ................Thine will, not mine. > > Interesting eh, .........the essence of all the expressions through all the > dudes, around whom all the Organized Religion grew, the essence is the same. > And yet, Organized Religion is the single biggest cause of all strife, all > conflict, in the history of humanity. > > > > > Or is there more notion-creating? > > > Whether it is, or it is not, .............to whom will it be,... so? > > To the recepient "me-entity" of the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 Whatever you say. - <sivadancer <> Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:22 AM Re: Seeking-Knowing-Becoming > Namaste Sandeep, > > Until ignorance is destroyed through proper practice, ego DOES exist. > This is an Upanishadic truth. Also, your version of the Four Noble > Truths has some interesting additions that only apply after the > ignorance is removed by practices. This is the Third Noble Truth -- > the Eightfold Path for the cessation of Sufferings. Even Buddha said > that there IS suffering, there is ignorance, there IS ego and you have > to practice to remove it. > > The main problem with any discussion about God/Consciousness is that > it enters the intellectual realm, and no amount of intellectualizing > will ever lead to true Knowledge. It is like a sword that is not quite > sharp enough. But if you keep shaprening and keep trying, practicing, > eventually you wear away the sword to nothingness...intellect goes out > the window, and you're one step closer. > > AUM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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