Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 Hi, Whether a spiritual quest or any quest, the focus is always on the goal, on the issue, isn't it? The goal of spiritual bliss, of Enlightenment, of awakening, of reaching God Or The issue of how to resolve the misery of living, get peace of mind Or, Seeking the new 4 bedroom house, the third car, maybe a couple of million dollars, a promotion, a new job, any job, seeking a self-fulfilling relationship, seeking to save/get out of a relationship, etc, etc. Rather than the issue, or the goal, we rarely wonder just who is it, that seeks spiritual bliss or Enlightenment or God, or the million dollars? Just who is it that is in misery? Who is it, that is in the quest? Who is this "seeker"? Who am I? The focus always is on the issue or the goal and the debate on the effectiveness of various means, schools of thought, philosophical streams, Guru X, or Y, Master P or Q, etc etc to achieve the issue, to reach the goal. Would not this focus, be like wondering whether the water of the mirage-lake in the desert, is it hot or cold? And debating how to measure that temperature ? What is the existential reality of this self, which seeks, whatever it seeks in the moment? What is the existential reality of the identity which you have assumed yourself to be? What is it's Truth? Who am I? Before stepping into that, what is existential Reality? What is Truth? Existential Reality or Truth would be "that" which needs no "other", depends on no "other", for it's existence. It stands completed in itself. Now let's look at the typical icons of identity which is normally assumed for oneself. -A name -A conglomeration of professional knowledge, skills, etc ( I am manager in a Multinational Company, or I am a speech therapist, I am Educationist, I am a wannabe doctor, I am radiologists, I am a Dean in a University) -A wife, a husband, a son, a father, a mother, a daughter, a respected member of the neighborhood society, a citizen of a country -A woman, a man -A human being in contrast to an animal or a snail. -An entity holding some profound realizations, memories of experiences out of which has evolved the dearly cherished Life-values, convictions, spiritual understandings, a spiritual seeker, a non-spiritual, whatever. -A human organism, which is alive, with a sense of volition, free will, to do or not to do, to decide between this and that, etc, etc. Are these not the typical icons, with which we paint our self-identity? Look at any of these icons. None of them can exist, on it's own. A simple visualization will make it evident. Imagine yourself as the sole survivor of a global catastrophe. Except you, nothing else, nobody else has survived. You are wandering about, with nobody else in sight, nothing else in sight. Without an "other", does your name, Barry, Vicky, Art, X,Y,Z have any meaning, any relevance? Without an "other", does your vocational knowledge, your skills in whatever business you are involved in, your spiritual work that you are engaged in, your Life-values, your religious convictions, have any meaning, any relevance? Without an "other", does the assumed identities, of a wife, of a mother, of a daughter, of a respected (or non-respected) member of society, of a son, of a father, of a husband, whatever, do they have any meaning, any relevance? Without an "other", does your "femaleness" or "maleness", have any meaning, any relevance? How will you define "maleness" without the existing contrast of "femaleness"? And vice-versa? Without an "other", does any of the convictions, values, conclusions, realizations, satoris, spiritual understandings that you hold on to, (for they define yourself to you), do any of that, have any meaning, any relevance? Without an "other", does your conviction about being a human organism with free will, have any meaning, any relevance? Without an "other", how would you even be convinced that you have survived the global catastrophe? That you are in fact, even "alive"? Without an "other", does "life" and "death", these convictions, which run you, have they any meaning, any relevance? In each of these identities, it cannot stand on it's own. It needs a contrasting opposite, an "other" to lend to it, it's existential meaning. Ergo, can any of these be the reality of your existence? Or define the truth of your existence? How do you know that you actually exist? Because, you are, right now sitting in front of a PC screen, reading these strange signs on the screen, connoting a crazy meaning? That you eat, take a shit in the morning, go to work, make love, relate to people, see other people alive, or dying, etc etc? All this could be happening in a dream. In a dream, you are alive, you eat, you do this or that, you have profound discussions, you are fearful you make love, you do cruel acts, you do profound acts. And in the dream, while dreaming, you do not know that you are dreaming. If another dreamed-up character walked upto you in the dream, or sends you a dream-message through the dreamed Internet connection, indicating that you are a dreamed-up character, you will laugh, be upset, not believe, and if your anger is sufficient, maybe even nail him to a cross, or burn her up. While you are dreaming, it is so real to you, that many a time, you break into cold sweat, you cry out, you shout, you laugh, you cry, you have wet dreams, all while sound asleep. Isn't it so? So what gives you the firm conviction that you are not a dreamed up-character in the dream of a tsetse fly and you will go "pooof", when the fly wakes up, from it's 10 second sleep. Time? Have you never dreamt where an entire life-time of 89-90 years flashed by, in it's minutest details, in a dream time of couple of hours? If you have not, know that, such has been a case with many a people. Continuity? You remember a previous waking days, events, experiences, work done, work undone etc, etc? Continuity is a function of the recording of the memory. In that respect the night-sleep--dream has a more powerful effect on memory, than the other way around. Why do I say that? You would have had, at some time in your life, such a powerful dream, that it's effect as "moroseness" or "happiness", carried on into your waking state, while at work, or while doing your house work. But never does your day-waking-functionings gets carried into your sleep-dreaming state, except may be when you had some bad Lobsters for dinner. Continuity is no basis for the existential reality of an identity. Centuries back, the Tao Master Chuang Tzu had posed the same question.... If Chuang Tzu can dream, it's become a butterfly flitting from flower to flower, why is it not possible that it is the butterfly dreaming that it is Chuang Tzu holding spiritual discourses. So, who are you? Who quests, whatever be the object of the quest? Ought not, this premise be clearly established before proceeding on any quest by this entity? Yaba Daba Gopeeeee Goooooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 Absolutely true to the grain. This mind fickled in it's nature makes associations with what it sees through the cognitive senses. It acts more like a matching sequence program ,this is good, this is bad,this is mine ,this is yours,this is good ,this is evil,this is me,this is you. The true objective of yoga is cutting and disrupting the matching sequence program and cutting the associations and being in the act, without any associations. To let go of mental associations,to unlearn that's the true way of understanding self and nature of your mind. Tat Sat iti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 , Sandeep Chatterjee <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > So, who are you? > > Who quests, whatever be the object of the quest? > > > Ought not, this premise be clearly established before proceeding on any > quest by this entity? > Namaste Sandeep, Yes, this is our purpose here on earth. This is why sannyasins discard everything in their lives, all ambitions, all desires -- because they want to Know first. Finding out "Who Am I?" IS the whole quest. AUM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 Just a brief quote that I relate to that seems to go along with this thread. f <begin quote> "We do not have to eliminate all thoughts, we have to make them assume the form of the Self. We have to see this world as a form of the Self. Nothing is different from the Self". Swami Muktananda <end quote> This occurs naturally through meditation. It is not a concious effort but a reality that grows each and every day. You then become free from the rituals that separate us culturally. There is no longer duality, just 'chitishakti'. f Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 - <desiraju2u <> Wednesday, February 05, 2003 08:40 PM Re: Who quests? > Absolutely true to the grain. > > This mind fickled in it's nature makes associations with what it sees > through the cognitive senses. Yes the taking of ownership. The taking of delivery. Even thinking, which is actually a conditioned chemical process through neuro-transmitters, across synaptic gaps, there is taking delivery of the thought into "my thought", into a sense of I am thinking, I am choosing amount options, I am deciding. The neuro-surgeon, Dr Libet's experimental validations of a time lag between the non-volitional occurrence of thought, and the taking ownership of it, is very interesting. An interesting report appeared on the "New Scientist" .........For example, legal scholars are beginning to worry about whether neurobiology might blast away the foundations of Western legal systems and the concept of human rights. They have good reason to worry. Modern neurobiologists and neurophilosophers of consciousness such as Patricia Churchland at the University of San Diego deride voluntary choice, free will, and similar concepts as mere "folk psychology". Indeed, consciousness may have surprisingly little power to affect behaviour, according to some of the work now coming out of research labs. For example, neurobiologists have measured how long certain visual perceptions take to register in consciousness, says Jeffrey Gray, a neurobiologist at the Institute of Psychiatry in London. This time delay--about 200 milliseconds--means that a tennis star at Wimbledon must return a serve well before becoming conscious of the serve's approach. "Our everyday experience of having conscious experiences and acting because of them is in most cases an illusion," says Gray. "Consciousness comes too late to affect behaviour." But if that's true, then our cherished notion that we can make a voluntary, conscious choice to do good or evil goes straight out of the window. And with it goes the basis for our legal system, says David Hodgson of the Supreme Court of New South Wales, the lone lawyer to speak at the conference. Western legal tradition puts great stock in the concept of intent, says Hodgson. To be found guilty of a crime, a person must consciously choose to commit the illegal act. Those who are unaware of their actions or who are coerced by a power beyond their control are let off the hook. -------- > > It acts more like a matching sequence program ,this is good, this is > bad,this is mine ,this is yours,this is good ,this is evil,this is > me,this is you. Yes. And the matching is always to a set of "known", i.e.the conditioning. Basically the mind can never know the unknown. All it knows are co-relations. > > The true objective of yoga is cutting and disrupting the matching > sequence program and cutting the associations and being in the act, > without any associations. Just beingness in the moment. Moment to moment to moment. > To let go of mental associations,to unlearn that's the true way of > understanding self and nature of your mind. Yes. However this "let go" happens, occurs, .........non-volitionally, acausally. A cultivated "let-go", through whatever means, whatever path, whatever methodology, is nothing but the "me" entering through the back door. Yaba daba gopeee gooooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 - <sivadancer <> Wednesday, February 05, 2003 08:53 PM Re: Who quests? > , Sandeep Chatterjee > <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > > > So, who are you? > > > > Who quests, whatever be the object of the quest? > > > > > > Ought not, this premise be clearly established before proceeding on > any > > quest by this entity? > > > > Namaste Sandeep, > > Yes, this is our purpose here on earth. Who is that "our", whose purpose, you allude to? Is there a purpose? Does Life has a purpose? Purpose, would denote an incompletion. Thus, a means has a purpose, for it can facilitate the movement from A to B, A and B, being distinct to each other AND B being the preferred destination, goal. As "A" it must be in in-completion, so as to have a purpose. I suggest for your consideration, that no nuance of Life is in,... in-completion. Life is in completion, moment to moment to moment. Being in completion, there is nothing beyond Life and thus Life has no purpose to it. Life is in completion. This is completion That is completion And out of completion, only completion arose And when completion arose, what was left was still in completion. That is why this un-purposeful phenomenality hs been described as Lila, the Grand Play. A play has no purpose beyond the joyness, as it is. When I am the sannyasin, I am the sannyas, I am the Samadhi........ ........Simultaneously..........can I have any purpose? > This is why sannyasins discard > everything in their lives, all ambitions, all desires -- because they > want to Know first. In phenomenality such events definitely happen. And phenomenality is a Lila, an inference, whose nature is that of a play. In essence there is no discarding taking place, because no accumulation took place in the first place. Just some two cents for consideration........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 >> So, who are you? >> >> Who quests, whatever be the object of the quest? >> >> Ought not, this premise be clearly established before proceeding >> on any quest by this entity? > Yes, this is our purpose here on earth. This is why sannyasins discard > everything in their lives, all ambitions, all desires -- because they > want to Know first. > > Finding out "Who Am I?" IS the whole quest. In the spiritual traditions I have experience with, that is only the first step. Ralf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 Hi Sandeep > Whether a spiritual quest or any quest, the focus is always on > the goal, on the issue, isn't it? Not at all. That is an entirely unfulfilling approach to a quest. I'm sorry you perceive it in this way. Maybe that is why you are not comfortable describing the path you are walking and any of the activities that you are doing, that give the true meaning to your quest? May you open yourself to more insights from the All That Is. Blessings, Ralf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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