Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 I've studied a bit of Vedic astrology. In Jyotish, the planets ("wandering stars") are all male. The fixed stars are female. Chandra or Soma (the Moon) is the original "travelling salesman with a girl in every port" -- the 27 lunar asterisms are his "wives" whom he visits, one per night. But Chandra had the hubris to lust after Brihaspati's (Jupiter's) star-wife, Tara, who is described as the North Star, Polaris. Yes, none of planets get anywhere near the North Star in the actual heavens, but who knows where they wandered in Ancient Times? :-) Venus in Jyotish is Shukra, a male Brahmin who is Guru to the Asuras (Anti-Gods). He rebelled against his more conservative teacher, Brihaspati/ Jupiter, who is Guru to the Devas. An interesting parallel to the Western tradition of Venus being Lucifer, the rebellious angel who rises before the Sun, only to fall back to earth. It's interesting that in Dravidian languages Venus is female -- but is this from a different system of astrology? A week's worth of Hindu planets... Sun -- Surya, is a stern Kshatriya (warrior) driving a chariot of seven horses, his gem is the ruby. Moon -- Chandra, is a charming Vaishya (merchant) in a chariot pulled by an antelope, his gem is the pearl. Mars -- Mangala, another hot-tempered Kshatriya who rides a golden ram, his gem is red coral. Mercury -- Budha, a Vaishya (like his father Chandra), a green-clad teen-ager (compare Peter Pan?) who rides a lion with an elephant's trunk (!), his gem is the emerald. Jupiter -- Brihaspati, a plump Brahmin (priest) who rides an elephant, his gem is yellow sapphire. Venus -- Shukra, also a Brahmin, he rides a white horse, his gem is diamond. Saturn -- Shani, is an elderly Shudra (servant), the rebel child of Surya and Chhaya (shadow), riding a vulture or raven, his gem is blue sapphire. -- Len/ Kalipadma On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:07:15 -0000 "m6" <megalith6 writes: > > Tara in Sanskrit means 'star'. I wonder which star? Kenneth Rexroth > suggests in his poetry that Marishiten/Marishi Devi is also to be > equated to Tara, and that she was indeed the Evening Star: Venus - > > In this poem the Morning Star, who in Sanskrit is literally 'Tara', > unites with the poet. > > It is a moment of "star and crescent". This is also telling, since an > ancient Hindu myth pictures Soma as the moon, pursuing Tara across > the heavens... I myself have actually witnessed the crescent moon > closing on Venus in the westering sky of evening. > > So, is Tara in fact the planet Venus? > > > Please disregard entirely sorry attempts by male-dominated Buddhism > to turn Tara into a man. Tara is a Goddess and she stands, if needs > be, on her own - over thousands of years and within many cultural > contexts. > ______________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2003 Report Share Posted March 29, 2003 Namaste Kalipadma, I'm sure you are correct about 'Jyotish', Vedic Astrology, and a very interesting post it is too. Living in the West I am Pisces, but in India, I would be Aquarius! However, my thoughts are that Venus as Tara in India would date back to preVedic times: modern astrology may not illuminate this question, I feel. As you say, "none of planets get anywhere near the North Star", and certainly not the Moon, I should think, since it follows the path of the sun, in the southern reaches of the firmament. The ancient myth thus appears to confirm that Polaris is indeed not the star in question. It would need to be a luminary that both Jupiter and the Moon can be in conjunction with. With regard to 'Lucifer' I do know of other Old World instances of Venus being accorded male status: often the planet is female - a celebrated instance being the Semitic Goddess Ishtar, whose '-tar' element reminds me of the Sanskrit word 'tara', "star". "Dravidian ... a different system of astrology?" Could well be, but apparently the Tamil 'Velli' is cognate with the word 'Venus' (Tamil 'ven' = to desire, love. [There seems to be a sound-shift from 'n' to 'l' as in 'velli' meaning "whiteness", and 'ven.d.i' meaning "silver"]). We may never know what the precise relationship from Dravidian to Sanskrit to Latin was, but I find it difficult to believe that Latin feminine 'Venus' finds a correlation in Old Tamil but not in 'Shukra'? It is this element of the mythological jig-saw enigma I should like to solve. Many thanks for your help, m6 , Black Lotus L Rosenberg <kalipadma@j...> wrote: > > > I've studied a bit of Vedic astrology. In Jyotish, the planets > ("wandering stars") are all male. The fixed stars are female. Chandra > or Soma (the Moon) is the original "travelling salesman with a girl in > every port" -- the 27 lunar asterisms are his "wives" whom he visits, one > per night. But Chandra had the hubris to lust after Brihaspati's > (Jupiter's) star-wife, Tara, who is described as the North Star, Polaris. > Yes, none of planets get anywhere near the North Star in the actual > heavens, but who knows where they wandered in Ancient Times? :-) > > Venus in Jyotish is Shukra, a male Brahmin who is Guru to the Asuras > (Anti-Gods). He rebelled against his more conservative teacher, > Brihaspati/ Jupiter, who is Guru to the Devas. An interesting parallel > to the Western tradition of Venus being Lucifer, the rebellious angel who > rises before the Sun, only to fall back to earth. > > It's interesting that in Dravidian languages Venus is female -- but is > this from a different system of astrology? > > A week's worth of Hindu planets... > Sun -- Surya, is a stern Kshatriya (warrior) driving a chariot of seven > horses, his gem is the ruby. > Moon -- Chandra, is a charming Vaishya (merchant) in a chariot pulled by > an antelope, his gem is the pearl. > Mars -- Mangala, another hot-tempered Kshatriya who rides a golden ram, > his gem is red coral. > Mercury -- Budha, a Vaishya (like his father Chandra), a green-clad > teen-ager (compare Peter Pan?) who rides a lion with an elephant's trunk > (!), his gem is the emerald. > Jupiter -- Brihaspati, a plump Brahmin (priest) who rides an elephant, > his gem is yellow sapphire. > Venus -- Shukra, also a Brahmin, he rides a white horse, his gem is > diamond. > Saturn -- Shani, is an elderly Shudra (servant), the rebel child of Surya > and Chhaya (shadow), riding a vulture or raven, his gem is blue > sapphire. > > -- Len/ Kalipadma > > > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:07:15 -0000 "m6" <megalith6@h...> writes: > > > > Tara in Sanskrit means 'star'. I wonder which star? Kenneth Rexroth > > suggests in his poetry that Marishiten/Marishi Devi is also to be > > equated to Tara, and that she was indeed the Evening Star: Venus - > > > > In this poem the Morning Star, who in Sanskrit is literally 'Tara', > > unites with the poet. > > > > It is a moment of "star and crescent". This is also telling, since an > > ancient Hindu myth pictures Soma as the moon, pursuing Tara across > > the heavens... I myself have actually witnessed the crescent moon > > closing on Venus in the westering sky of evening. > > > > So, is Tara in fact the planet Venus? > > > > > > Please disregard entirely sorry attempts by male-dominated Buddhism > > to turn Tara into a man. Tara is a Goddess and she stands, if needs > > be, on her own - over thousands of years and within many cultural > > contexts. > > > > ______________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2003 Report Share Posted March 29, 2003 This is totally untrue.... I don't know the Sanskrit but we say she is an evening star because she's often clothed in red like the evening sky. there are hundreds of praises to Tara - all identifying her as female. In fact the legend says Tara was offered the boon for her bodhisattva career as rebirth as a man but turned it down... stop fault finding men? its the blame shame game wrapped in a new cloth... & the goddess within you rebels.... > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:07:15 -0000 "m6" <megalith6@h...> writes: > > Please disregard entirely sorry attempts by male-dominated Buddhism > > to turn Tara into a man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 - "laroye2003" <laroye2003 <> Sunday, March 30, 2003 5:51 AM Re: Is Tara = Venus? > This is totally untrue.... > > I don't know the Sanskrit but we say > > she is an evening star because she's often clothed in red like > the evening sky. > > there are hundreds of praises to Tara - all identifying her as > female. > > In fact the legend says Tara was offered the boon for her > bodhisattva career as rebirth as a man but turned it down... > > stop fault finding men? > > its the blame shame game wrapped in a new cloth... > > & the goddess within you rebels.... > > > > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:07:15 -0000 "m6" <megalith6@h...> writes: > > > > Please disregard entirely sorry attempts by male-dominated > Buddhism > > > to turn Tara into a man. > it seems some are talking out of sheer ignorance... Male-dominated Buddhism ??? are you not mistaking Islam with Buddhism ??? Those who are sticking to gender-based identity are still very much glued into pairs of opposite and very far from enlightenment ! Ego-clinging (and in this particular case clinging to gender-based identity) is the root of delusion and what is keeping one from the path to liberation, so please LET GO !!! Roger Garin-Michaud from Saint-Priest near Lyon France tel: 33-892695022 (GMT+1) fax: 33-478203517 http://www.cyberdistributeur.com « La violence est le dernier refuge de l'incompétence ». Asimov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2003 Report Share Posted March 31, 2003 , "laroye2003" <laroye2003> wrote: > This is totally untrue.... What is totally untrue, please? > > I don't know the Sanskrit but we say > > she is an evening star because she's often clothed in red like > the evening sky. "we say" - okay, who are "we", please: who says that "she is an evening star"? You are refering to Tara? from which tradition? > > there are hundreds of praises to Tara - all identifying her as > female. Tara to me is a goddess, as well as she is a bodhisattva, Scrol Ma and Tara Ma, together. > > In fact the legend says Tara was offered the boon for her > bodhisattva career as rebirth as a man but turned it down... But why should she be offered such a 'boon' in the first place? I don't see men as 'boon' and women as 'less than boon'? > > stop fault finding men? > > its the blame shame game wrapped in a new cloth... > > & the goddess within you rebels.... You've really lost me now. Help! But thanks nonetheless, m6 > > > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:07:15 -0000 "m6" <megalith6@h...> writes: > > > > Please disregard entirely sorry attempts by male-dominated > Buddhism > > > to turn Tara into a man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2003 Report Share Posted March 31, 2003 , "roger" <roger@c...> wrote: > > > - > "laroye2003" <laroye2003> > <> > Sunday, March 30, 2003 5:51 AM > Re: Is Tara = Venus? > > > > This is totally untrue.... > > > > I don't know the Sanskrit but we say > > > > she is an evening star because she's often clothed in red like > > the evening sky. > > > > there are hundreds of praises to Tara - all identifying her as > > female. > > > > In fact the legend says Tara was offered the boon for her > > bodhisattva career as rebirth as a man but turned it down... > > > > stop fault finding men? > > > > its the blame shame game wrapped in a new cloth... > > > > & the goddess within you rebels.... > > > > > > > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:07:15 -0000 "m6" <megalith6@h...> writes: > > > > > > Please disregard entirely sorry attempts by male-dominated > > Buddhism > > > > to turn Tara into a man. > > > > it seems some are talking out of sheer ignorance... > Male-dominated Buddhism ??? are you not mistaking Islam with Buddhism ??? No, I'm not. I was told by a Buddhist that every time you see a Tara figurine, look very carefully for a tiny Lord Buddha sitting within her headdress. This is absolute chauvinism, with the no disrespect to the Lord Buddha. > Those who are sticking to gender-based identity are still very much glued > into pairs of opposite and very far from enlightenment ! Ahem, I'm basically a Shakta - the polarity between the sexes is important to me. You could say it is a Path, or a means, to an end. > Ego-clinging (and in this particular case clinging to gender-based identity) > is the root of delusion and what is keeping one from the path to liberation, > so please LET GO !!! Ah well, all is maya, so I have read... So kindly thank you, m6 > > Roger Garin-Michaud > from Saint-Priest near Lyon France > tel: 33-892695022 (GMT+1) > fax: 33-478203517 > http://www.cyberdistributeur.com > « La violence est le dernier refuge de l'incompétence ». Asimov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 , "m6" <megalith6@h...> wrote: > , "laroye2003" <laroye2003> > wrote: > > This is totally untrue.... > > What is totally untrue, please? > 'attempts by male-dominated Buddhism to turn Tara into a man.' > > I don't know the Sanskrit but we say > > > > she is an evening star because she's often clothed in red like > > the evening sky. > > "we say" - okay, who are "we", please: I have no idea what I meant by that...if it was an ecclesiatical sort of 'we' then pls disregard. I see the point here but I would say its been invalidated by exaggeration...the idea of her 'boon' to take male rebirth is evidence enough, as you state below. who says that "she is an > evening star"? You are refering to Tara? from which tradition? there is a beautiful poem to Tara which is very early - I think before the rise of the Mahayana in Jambudvipa (India) in which she is compared to a bhikkuni since she is dressed in red and there is a pun on the name Tara (star) comparing her to an early star wrapped in the red evening sky... > > > > > there are hundreds of praises to Tara - all identifying her as > > female. > > Tara to me is a goddess, as well as she is a bodhisattva, Scrol Ma > and Tara Ma, together. > > > yes > > In fact the legend says Tara was offered the boon for her > > bodhisattva career as rebirth as a man but turned it down... > > But why should she be offered such a 'boon' in the first place? I > don't see men as 'boon' and women as 'less than boon'? > I agree > > > > stop fault finding men? > > > > its the blame shame game wrapped in a new cloth... > > > > & the goddess within you rebels.... > > You've really lost me now. > > Help! I apologies if I was projecting, your statement sounded polemicAL you may have noticed there is quite a tendency among new agers & the soft (fairy) pagans to bash men at any opportunity, which in my opinion is totally alien to the true tantric families...and I know that primary sources (Hevajra, Naropa, Dakini not to mention the Kula Shiva Parvati traditions etc)..support that view. > > But thanks nonetheless, > > m6 you're welcome > > > > > > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:07:15 -0000 "m6" <megalith6@h...> writes: > > > > > > Please disregard entirely sorry attempts by male-dominated > > Buddhism > > > > to turn Tara into a man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 laroye2003, Thank you for your posting, which is another leap for my Tara research! Yes, I to the ideal of Tantric Shaktism, and I worship Tara - with the Lord Shiva as her consort, as Shiva-Shakti: so I believe in polarity. I utterly reject the imbalance of monotheism, and see it as one of the root causes of material misery and spiritual impoverishment in much of the world today. Jai Maa! m6 , "Demon King of Havoc" <laroye2003> wrote: > , "m6" <megalith6@h...> wrote: > > , "laroye2003" > <laroye2003> > > wrote: > > > This is totally untrue.... > > > > What is totally untrue, please? > > > > 'attempts by male-dominated > Buddhism to turn Tara into a man.' > > > > I don't know the Sanskrit but we say > > > > > > she is an evening star because she's often clothed in red like > > > the evening sky. > > > > "we say" - okay, who are "we", please: > > I have no idea what I meant by that...if it was an ecclesiatical sort > of 'we' then pls disregard. I see the point here but I would say its > been invalidated by exaggeration...the idea of her 'boon' to take > male rebirth is evidence enough, as you state below. > > > > who says that "she is an > > evening star"? You are refering to Tara? from which tradition? > > there is a beautiful poem to Tara which is very early - I think > before the rise of the Mahayana in Jambudvipa (India) in which she is > compared to a bhikkuni since she is dressed in red and there is a pun > on the name Tara (star) comparing her to an early star wrapped in the > red evening sky... > > > > > > > > > > there are hundreds of praises to Tara - all identifying her as > > > female. > > > > Tara to me is a goddess, as well as she is a bodhisattva, Scrol Ma > > and Tara Ma, together. > > > > > > > yes > > > > > In fact the legend says Tara was offered the boon for her > > > bodhisattva career as rebirth as a man but turned it down... > > > > But why should she be offered such a 'boon' in the first place? I > > don't see men as 'boon' and women as 'less than boon'? > > > > I agree > > > > > > > stop fault finding men? > > > > > > its the blame shame game wrapped in a new cloth... > > > > > > & the goddess within you rebels.... > > > > You've really lost me now. > > > > Help! > > I apologies if I was projecting, your statement sounded polemicAL you > may have noticed there is quite a tendency among new agers & the soft > (fairy) pagans to bash men at any opportunity, which in my opinion is > totally alien to the true tantric families...and I know that primary > sources (Hevajra, Naropa, Dakini not to mention the Kula Shiva > Parvati traditions etc)..support that view. > > > > > But thanks nonetheless, > > > > m6 > > you're welcome > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:07:15 -0000 "m6" <megalith6@h...> writes: > > > > > > > > Please disregard entirely sorry attempts by male-dominated > > > Buddhism > > > > > to turn Tara into a man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 Om Nama Shivaya kirtan Shivãya Parameshvarãya shivãya parameshvarãya sasishekharãya nama om bhavãya gunasambhavãya shiva tãndavãya nama om shivãya parameshvarãya chandrashekharãya nama om bhavãya gunasambhavãya shiva tãndavãya nama om so I > believe in polarity. Jai! Om Vashaya Namaha I utterly reject the imbalance of monotheism, > and see it as one of the root causes of material misery and spiritual > impoverishment in much of the world today. > > Jai Maa! > Ya Devi Sarva Bhuteshu Shakti Rupena Samstita Namas Tas Yai Namotha Namo Namaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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