Guest guest Posted April 8, 2003 Report Share Posted April 8, 2003 Nora, I love this! So powerful and beautiful! prainbow , "Nora" <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > ** Shri Vana Durga Havan ** > Durga of the forest. > As worshipped by foresters > (Durgasatanama Stotra) > > N: Hope not disturbing, just want to get your idea who should we put > up as our Devi of the week? > > M1: Vanadurga. The temples of Vana durga are always open to air. She > is like fire seated on lion > > N : Is vanadurga one of the ancient or earlier form of Durga, in the > early Bengal. Interesting there are so many forms of durga. > > M1: Yes ancient from Kerala. A very interesting form of Durga > > N: The Temple : Chakkulathukavu (28km from Alappuzha) " Goddess > Vanadurga is the presiding diety. Pongala and naree pooja-in honor of > womanhood are the main festivals" > > M1: She burns like fire. You know what her mantra is? > > om hrIM dumuthishta purushi, kim swapishi, bhayam me samupastitam > yadi shakyamashakyam tanme bhagawati shamaya swaahaa > > literally means : wake up!! why are you sleeping? I am afraid please > remove the cause of fear > > N: In the picture she is holding the ball of fire and her her aura is > firelike > > M1 :Yes that is what it symbolizes > > N: Since she is supposedly in the forest so ideally the place of > worshipping her should be in the forest too. > > M1 : You are supposed to do it in water up to neck with someone to > watch to see that you do not drown that way body does not get heated > up > > N: It is the energy that is around you that becomes hotter its like > in the hot oven? > > M1: Yes it was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 Hindu, Tribal religions and synthesis In the early historical period, the vedic-puranic religion was probably not very strong in Bengal: in fact, this `aryanization' of bengal probably did not happen till the post-Gupta period. A number of features of Hinduism, however, can be traced to non-indo-europen origins. In fact, it was during this early period that the writings of manu (1st century BC) and the development of the six schools of philosophy which started to define a hinduism clearly recognizable today; but none of this may have influenced contemporary bengal. The tribal religions in Bengal today has a large emphasis on the worship of non-animate spirits embodying the world around us: the places, rocks, trees and forests playing an important role in these beliefs. There is little reason to doubt the ancient origins of this complex; and, indeed, a large part of folk hinduism seems to consist of similar beliefs. Thus, for example, the veneration of the tulsi plant, the vaTa tree, or the seora tree; the planting of a branch in the sacred areas as a symbol of the tree; the use of parts of the banana plant as a symbol of a married woman; the use of an ear of paddy as a part of the ceremony; the grains of rice and stalks of durvA grass used in benediction; the use of turmeric in washing the bride during marriage; the use of Ak, cAl-kumD.A, banana, betelnut, pAn, turmeric, coconut, vermillion, cowdung, kaD.i, khai, yoghurt, etc. in various ceremonies; and the traditional associations of certain animals with certain gods probably point to a significant Indian, and bengali, contribution to the common hinduism. In fact, it is likely that many of the current Hindu divinities like shiva, kAli, karAlI, nArAYaNa shilA, gaNesha, bhairava, and Buddhist ones like jambhila, hArItI, ekajaTA, nairAtmA, bhRkuTi etc. are of non-aryan origin. However, the nature of this early religion is difficult to ascertain today. In the modern world, we do find sacred places, sometimes even without the idol of any god, which are held sacred, and to the god of which local people promise and sacrifice so that their hopes be fulfilled. These village deities have various names in various places, and have often been identified with the higher pantheon of hindu gods and goddesses. Their worship has not always been sanctioned by hinduism --- manu very often calls their worshippers fallen hindus --- but they still remain a very important part of folk hinduism. In fact, some of the hindu deities like shitalA, manasA, vanadurgA, SaSThI, caNDI, kalI, shiva, parNashavarI, jaGgulI are almost definitely of non-indo- european origin. The dhvajApujas definitely formed a part of ancient bengali folk tradition; at least, descriptions of indradhvajA survives from before the 11th century. Similarly, one finds descriptions of sacredness of the vaTa tree and its association with kubera and lakSmI, descriptions of animal sacrifice and worship of stones and places, and descriptions of the gods of agricultural products and processes like extraction of sugarcane juice. This is an extract from article entitled : Religion in Ancient Bengal: Before guptas. For more go to: http://tanmoy.tripod.com/bengal/preguptarelig.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2003 Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 Namaste, Many things in the article do not make any sense. The article seems to be based on out-dated knowledge like Aryan invasion, which is false and irrelevant. The rest of the article(ex:shiva likely a non-aryan god etc-funny) need not be taken seriously. regards satish. , "Nora" <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > Hindu, Tribal religions and synthesis > > In the early historical period, the vedic-puranic religion was > probably not very strong in Bengal: in fact, this `aryanization' of > bengal probably did not happen till the post-Gupta period. A number > of features of Hinduism, however, can be traced to non-indo-europen > origins. > > In fact, it was during this early period that the writings of manu > (1st century BC) and the development of the six schools of philosophy > which started to define a hinduism clearly recognizable today; but > none of this may have influenced contemporary bengal. > > The tribal religions in Bengal today has a large emphasis on the > worship of non-animate spirits embodying the world around us: the > places, rocks, trees and forests playing an important role in these > beliefs. There is little reason to doubt the ancient origins of this > complex; and, indeed, a large part of folk hinduism seems to consist > of similar beliefs. > > Thus, for example, the veneration of the tulsi plant, the vaTa tree, > or the seora tree; the planting of a branch in the sacred areas as a > symbol of the tree; the use of parts of the banana plant as a symbol > of a married woman; the use of an ear of paddy as a part of the > ceremony; the grains of rice and stalks of durvA grass used in > benediction; the use of turmeric in washing the bride during > marriage; the use of Ak, cAl-kumD.A, banana, betelnut, pAn, turmeric, > coconut, vermillion, cowdung, kaD.i, khai, yoghurt, etc. in various > ceremonies; and the traditional associations of certain animals with > certain gods probably point to a significant Indian, and bengali, > contribution to the common hinduism. > > In fact, it is likely that many of the current Hindu divinities like > shiva, kAli, karAlI, nArAYaNa shilA, gaNesha, bhairava, and Buddhist > ones like jambhila, hArItI, ekajaTA, nairAtmA, bhRkuTi etc. are of > non-aryan origin. > > However, the nature of this early religion is difficult to ascertain > today. In the modern world, we do find sacred places, sometimes even > without the idol of any god, which are held sacred, and to the god of > which local people promise and sacrifice so that their hopes be > fulfilled. These village deities have various names in various > places, and have often been identified with the higher pantheon of > hindu gods and goddesses. > > Their worship has not always been sanctioned by hinduism --- manu > very often calls their worshippers fallen hindus --- but they still > remain a very important part of folk hinduism. In fact, some of the > hindu deities like shitalA, manasA, vanadurgA, SaSThI, caNDI, kalI, > shiva, parNashavarI, jaGgulI are almost definitely of non-indo- > european origin. > > The dhvajApujas definitely formed a part of ancient bengali folk > tradition; at least, descriptions of indradhvajA survives from before > the 11th century. Similarly, one finds descriptions of sacredness of > the vaTa tree and its association with kubera and lakSmI, > descriptions of animal sacrifice and worship of stones and places, > and descriptions of the gods of agricultural products and processes > like extraction of sugarcane juice. > > This is an extract from article entitled : Religion in Ancient > Bengal: Before guptas. For more go to: > http://tanmoy.tripod.com/bengal/preguptarelig.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2003 Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 There are images of Shiva from Harrapan & Mohenjo-daro period (on cylinder seals) that predate Vedic 'Aryan' influence in the subcontinent...this leads many scholars to conclude that Shiva was originally a non-Aryan deity, who was merged with the Vedic god Rudra. , "satisharigela" <satisharigela> wrote: > Namaste, > > Many things in the article do not make any sense. The article seems > to be based on out-dated knowledge like Aryan invasion, which is > false and irrelevant. > > The rest of the article(ex:shiva likely a non-aryan god etc-funny) > need not be taken seriously. > > regards > satish. > > > > , "Nora" > <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > > Hindu, Tribal religions and synthesis > > > > In the early historical period, the vedic-puranic religion was > > probably not very strong in Bengal: in fact, this `aryanization' of > > bengal probably did not happen till the post-Gupta period. A number > > of features of Hinduism, however, can be traced to non-indo-europen > > origins. > > > > In fact, it was during this early period that the writings of manu > > (1st century BC) and the development of the six schools of > philosophy > > which started to define a hinduism clearly recognizable today; but > > none of this may have influenced contemporary bengal. > > > > The tribal religions in Bengal today has a large emphasis on the > > worship of non-animate spirits embodying the world around us: the > > places, rocks, trees and forests playing an important role in these > > beliefs. There is little reason to doubt the ancient origins of > this > > complex; and, indeed, a large part of folk hinduism seems to > consist > > of similar beliefs. > > > > Thus, for example, the veneration of the tulsi plant, the vaTa > tree, > > or the seora tree; the planting of a branch in the sacred areas as > a > > symbol of the tree; the use of parts of the banana plant as a > symbol > > of a married woman; the use of an ear of paddy as a part of the > > ceremony; the grains of rice and stalks of durvA grass used in > > benediction; the use of turmeric in washing the bride during > > marriage; the use of Ak, cAl-kumD.A, banana, betelnut, pAn, > turmeric, > > coconut, vermillion, cowdung, kaD.i, khai, yoghurt, etc. in various > > ceremonies; and the traditional associations of certain animals > with > > certain gods probably point to a significant Indian, and bengali, > > contribution to the common hinduism. > > > > In fact, it is likely that many of the current Hindu divinities > like > > shiva, kAli, karAlI, nArAYaNa shilA, gaNesha, bhairava, and > Buddhist > > ones like jambhila, hArItI, ekajaTA, nairAtmA, bhRkuTi etc. are of > > non-aryan origin. > > > > However, the nature of this early religion is difficult to > ascertain > > today. In the modern world, we do find sacred places, sometimes > even > > without the idol of any god, which are held sacred, and to the god > of > > which local people promise and sacrifice so that their hopes be > > fulfilled. These village deities have various names in various > > places, and have often been identified with the higher pantheon of > > hindu gods and goddesses. > > > > Their worship has not always been sanctioned by hinduism --- manu > > very often calls their worshippers fallen hindus --- but they still > > remain a very important part of folk hinduism. In fact, some of the > > hindu deities like shitalA, manasA, vanadurgA, SaSThI, caNDI, kalI, > > shiva, parNashavarI, jaGgulI are almost definitely of non-indo- > > european origin. > > > > The dhvajApujas definitely formed a part of ancient bengali folk > > tradition; at least, descriptions of indradhvajA survives from > before > > the 11th century. Similarly, one finds descriptions of sacredness > of > > the vaTa tree and its association with kubera and lakSmI, > > descriptions of animal sacrifice and worship of stones and places, > > and descriptions of the gods of agricultural products and processes > > like extraction of sugarcane juice. > > > > This is an extract from article entitled : Religion in Ancient > > Bengal: Before guptas. For more go to: > > http://tanmoy.tripod.com/bengal/preguptarelig.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2003 Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 , "Demon King of Havoc" <laroye2003> wrote: > There are images of Shiva from Harrapan & Mohenjo-daro period (on > cylinder seals) that predate Vedic 'Aryan' influence in the > subcontinent...this leads many scholars to conclude that Shiva was > originally a non-Aryan deity, who was merged with the Vedic god >Rudra. That is *assuming* 1)that the harappan culture was different from that of aryan and 2) that vedic culture was from outside the sub- continent. The above two are not valid assumptions. Related research may be referred to, for details. rgds > > > > > , "satisharigela" > <satisharigela> wrote: > > Namaste, > > > > Many things in the article do not make any sense. The article seems > > to be based on out-dated knowledge like Aryan invasion, which is > > false and irrelevant. > > > > The rest of the article(ex:shiva likely a non-aryan god etc- funny) > > need not be taken seriously. > > > > regards > > satish. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2003 Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 Namaste, I have seen how Dravidian (Old Tamil) is in fact linked to Indo European, through Tamil 'Velli' to Latin 'Venus', both apparently cognate names for this 'star'. There's no reason Shiva couldn't be part of this preVedic complex: we need to look deeper into Dravidian culture, I feel. Furthermore, the Pashupati archetype on the Mohenjo seal appears to equate to Shiva on the one hand, and the Celtic Kernunnos, on the other. There is so much we do not comprehend about remote history - and there is so much there to be understood! m6 , "Demon King of Havoc" <laroye2003> wrote: > There are images of Shiva from Harrapan & Mohenjo-daro period (on > cylinder seals) that predate Vedic 'Aryan' influence in the > subcontinent...this leads many scholars to conclude that Shiva was > originally a non-Aryan deity, who was merged with the Vedic god Rudra. > > > > > , "satisharigela" > <satisharigela> wrote: > > Namaste, > > > > Many things in the article do not make any sense. The article seems > > to be based on out-dated knowledge like Aryan invasion, which is > > false and irrelevant. > > > > The rest of the article(ex:shiva likely a non-aryan god etc- funny) > > need not be taken seriously. > > > > regards > > satish. > > > > > > > > , "Nora" > > <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > > > Hindu, Tribal religions and synthesis > > > > > > In the early historical period, the vedic-puranic religion was > > > probably not very strong in Bengal: in fact, this `aryanization' of > > > bengal probably did not happen till the post-Gupta period. A number > > > of features of Hinduism, however, can be traced to non-indo- europen > > > origins. > > > > > > In fact, it was during this early period that the writings of manu > > > (1st century BC) and the development of the six schools of > > philosophy > > > which started to define a hinduism clearly recognizable today; but > > > none of this may have influenced contemporary bengal. > > > > > > The tribal religions in Bengal today has a large emphasis on the > > > worship of non-animate spirits embodying the world around us: the > > > places, rocks, trees and forests playing an important role in these > > > beliefs. There is little reason to doubt the ancient origins of > > this > > > complex; and, indeed, a large part of folk hinduism seems to > > consist > > > of similar beliefs. > > > > > > Thus, for example, the veneration of the tulsi plant, the vaTa > > tree, > > > or the seora tree; the planting of a branch in the sacred areas as > > a > > > symbol of the tree; the use of parts of the banana plant as a > > symbol > > > of a married woman; the use of an ear of paddy as a part of the > > > ceremony; the grains of rice and stalks of durvA grass used in > > > benediction; the use of turmeric in washing the bride during > > > marriage; the use of Ak, cAl-kumD.A, banana, betelnut, pAn, > > turmeric, > > > coconut, vermillion, cowdung, kaD.i, khai, yoghurt, etc. in various > > > ceremonies; and the traditional associations of certain animals > > with > > > certain gods probably point to a significant Indian, and bengali, > > > contribution to the common hinduism. > > > > > > In fact, it is likely that many of the current Hindu divinities > > like > > > shiva, kAli, karAlI, nArAYaNa shilA, gaNesha, bhairava, and > > Buddhist > > > ones like jambhila, hArItI, ekajaTA, nairAtmA, bhRkuTi etc. are of > > > non-aryan origin. > > > > > > However, the nature of this early religion is difficult to > > ascertain > > > today. In the modern world, we do find sacred places, sometimes > > even > > > without the idol of any god, which are held sacred, and to the god > > of > > > which local people promise and sacrifice so that their hopes be > > > fulfilled. These village deities have various names in various > > > places, and have often been identified with the higher pantheon of > > > hindu gods and goddesses. > > > > > > Their worship has not always been sanctioned by hinduism --- manu > > > very often calls their worshippers fallen hindus --- but they still > > > remain a very important part of folk hinduism. In fact, some of the > > > hindu deities like shitalA, manasA, vanadurgA, SaSThI, caNDI, kalI, > > > shiva, parNashavarI, jaGgulI are almost definitely of non-indo- > > > european origin. > > > > > > The dhvajApujas definitely formed a part of ancient bengali folk > > > tradition; at least, descriptions of indradhvajA survives from > > before > > > the 11th century. Similarly, one finds descriptions of sacredness > > of > > > the vaTa tree and its association with kubera and lakSmI, > > > descriptions of animal sacrifice and worship of stones and places, > > > and descriptions of the gods of agricultural products and processes > > > like extraction of sugarcane juice. > > > > > > This is an extract from article entitled : Religion in Ancient > > > Bengal: Before guptas. For more go to: > > > http://tanmoy.tripod.com/bengal/preguptarelig.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 "Many things in the article do not make any sense. The article seems to be based on out-dated knowledge like Aryan invasion, which is false and irrelevant. The rest of the article(ex: shiva likely a non- aryan god etc-funny)need not be taken seriously" Well if we really look at it, a lot of things not just the "Aryan Invasion" theory does not make sense. But to just brush it aside and say they are nonsense too does not make sense. I have been trying to avoid this "Aryan Invasion" theory, because I know it will create a lot of unhappiness, but somehow it eventually surface. Even amongst the Indologist they couldn't come to an agreement about this so called "Aryan invasion" theory. There are different school of thoughts : The "Invasion" and the "Non- Invasion". One group says : It is a myth and not reliable/ of out of date as some says. Another says : To say it does not exist is like saying that the Holocust and the Rape of Nanking is also a myth or does not or never happen. So where do we stand in this ground.? I have with me several articles courtesy of the indology group, who are kind enough to allow me to hang around in their group and listen to their discussion http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/keaitlin1.htm http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/keaitlin2.htm Another interesting article, ( if you have the patience to read the 98 pages long , but its worth it ) by Micheal Witzel, Havard University. http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0703/ejvs0703article.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 --- satisharigela <satisharigela wrote: > , "Demon King > of Havoc" > <laroye2003> wrote: > > There are images of Shiva from Harrapan & > Mohenjo-daro period (on > > cylinder seals) that predate Vedic 'Aryan' > influence in the > > subcontinent...this leads many scholars to > conclude that Shiva was > > originally a non-Aryan deity, who was merged with > the Vedic god > >Rudra. > > > > That is *assuming* 1)that the harappan culture > was different from > that of aryan and 2) that vedic culture was from > outside the sub- > continent. > > The above two are not valid assumptions. Related > research may be > referred to, for details. > > rgds > hmmmm does not the Ramayana show enough of a distincton between the Vedic culture and that of the Dravidian south. Think - Who was Hanuman? Those naughty Aryans... > > > > > > > > > > > > , > "satisharigela" > > <satisharigela> wrote: > > > Namaste, > > > > > > Many things in the article do not make any > sense. The article > seems > > > to be based on out-dated knowledge like Aryan > invasion, which is > > > false and irrelevant. > > > > > > The rest of the article(ex:shiva likely a > non-aryan god etc- > funny) > > > need not be taken seriously. > > > > > > regards > > > satish. > > > > > > Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 Namaste, >From what I can discern, 'Aryan' is a word, an adjective (not really a name, at all): it means 'noble'. It probably means a group of people inhabiting a certain territory and calling themselves 'nobles' - just like the Norman French in eleventh century Britain. The people concerned in Asia seem to have been an Indo-Iranian group, and I understand there are parallels between Vedic and Indo-Iranian culture, such as the worship of Soma? m6 , "Nora" <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > "Many things in the article do not make any sense. The article > seems > to be based on out-dated knowledge like Aryan invasion, which is > false and irrelevant. The rest of the article(ex: shiva likely a non- > aryan god etc-funny)need not be taken seriously" > > > Well if we really look at it, a lot of things not just the "Aryan > Invasion" theory does not make sense. But to just brush it aside > and > say they are nonsense too does not make sense. > > I have been trying to avoid this "Aryan Invasion" theory, > because I > know it will create a lot of unhappiness, but somehow it eventually > surface. Even amongst the Indologist they couldn't come to an > agreement about this so called "Aryan invasion" theory. > > There are different school of thoughts : The "Invasion" and > the "Non- > Invasion". > > One group says : It is a myth and not reliable/ of out of date as > some says. > > Another says : To say it does not exist is like saying that the > Holocust and the Rape of Nanking is also a myth or does not or never > happen. > > So where do we stand in this ground.? > > I have with me several articles courtesy of the indology group, who > are kind enough to allow me to hang around in their group and listen > to their discussion > > http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/keaitlin1.htm > http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/keaitlin2.htm > > Another interesting article, ( if you have the patience to read the > 98 pages long , but its worth it ) by Micheal Witzel, Havard > University. > http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0703/ejvs0703article.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 Namaste 'Iran' is in fact a cognate of 'Aryan' (and so is the name 'Allen') My understanding of this - I don't claim to be an authority on this but - I believe the people who were known as Aryan moved out of Central Asia and down into Iran where they split with migrations west and then east down into the Indian subcontinent... --- m6 <megalith6 wrote: > Namaste, > > From what I can discern, 'Aryan' is a word, an > adjective (not really > a name, at all): it means 'noble'. It > probably means a group of people inhabiting a > certain territory > and calling themselves 'nobles' - just like the > Norman > French in eleventh century Britain. > > The people concerned in Asia seem to have been an > Indo-Iranian group, > and I > understand there are parallels between Vedic and > Indo-Iranian > culture, such as the worship of Soma? > > m6 > > > , "Nora" > <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > > "Many things in the article do not make any sense. > The article > > seems > > to be based on out-dated knowledge like Aryan > invasion, which is > > false and irrelevant. The rest of the article(ex: > shiva likely a > non- > > aryan god etc-funny)need not be taken seriously" > > > > > > Well if we really look at it, a lot of things not > just the "Aryan > > Invasion" theory does not make sense. But to just > brush it aside > > and > > say they are nonsense too does not make sense. > > > > I have been trying to avoid this "Aryan Invasion" > theory, > > because I > > know it will create a lot of unhappiness, but > somehow it eventually > > surface. Even amongst the Indologist they couldn't > come to an > > agreement about this so called "Aryan invasion" > theory. > > > > There are different school of thoughts : The > "Invasion" and > > the "Non- > > Invasion". > > > > One group says : It is a myth and not reliable/ of > out of date as > > some says. > > > > Another says : To say it does not exist is like > saying that the > > Holocust and the Rape of Nanking is also a myth or > does not or > never > > happen. > > > > So where do we stand in this ground.? > > > > I have with me several articles courtesy of the > indology group, who > > are kind enough to allow me to hang around in > their group and > listen > > to their discussion > > > > > http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/keaitlin1.htm > > > http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/keaitlin2.htm > > > > Another interesting article, ( if you have the > patience to read the > > 98 pages long , but its worth it ) by Micheal > Witzel, Havard > > University. > > > http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0703/ejvs0703article.pdf > > Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 Namaste-I would respectfully like to submit a warning about this Aryan origins topic-it is extremely "hot". I was a "lurker" on the Indology discussion board referred to here. The Aryan origin topic was so inflammatory and participants so utterly nasty and unwilling to dialogue that ultimately, I believe, the message board had to be discontinued and reconvened with different qualifications. Cyberbullies had a heyday with this subject.All politeness is cast to the winds. Hopefully the very wonderful focus this group has on shakti sadhana will not be derailed by the contentiousness re:the Aryan issue. When shorn of the passion, it is a really fascinating subject,yes? New discoveries are being made and new theories are being formulated. What, in my unscholarly opinion, would be really helpful would be to post a list, such as the one "Nora" has started here, that contains links to all the many viewpoints on the Aryan origin issue. Maybe a site like that already exists? Jai Ma, Gita , "Nora" <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > "Many things in the article do not make any sense. The article > seems > to be based on out-dated knowledge like Aryan invasion, which is > false and irrelevant. The rest of the article(ex: shiva likely a non- > aryan god etc-funny)need not be taken seriously" > > > Well if we really look at it, a lot of things not just the "Aryan > Invasion" theory does not make sense. But to just brush it aside > and > say they are nonsense too does not make sense. > > I have been trying to avoid this "Aryan Invasion" theory, > because I > know it will create a lot of unhappiness, but somehow it eventually > surface. Even amongst the Indologist they couldn't come to an > agreement about this so called "Aryan invasion" theory. > > There are different school of thoughts : The "Invasion" and > the "Non- > Invasion". > > One group says : It is a myth and not reliable/ of out of date as > some says. > > Another says : To say it does not exist is like saying that the > Holocust and the Rape of Nanking is also a myth or does not or never > happen. > > So where do we stand in this ground.? > > I have with me several articles courtesy of the indology group, who > are kind enough to allow me to hang around in their group and listen > to their discussion > > http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/keaitlin1.htm > http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/keaitlin2.htm > > Another interesting article, ( if you have the patience to read the > 98 pages long , but its worth it ) by Micheal Witzel, Havard > University. > http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0703/ejvs0703article.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 Om Namah Sivaya Sivaya Namah Om Nandi Vahana Namah Sivaya Sada Lola Hara Namah Sivaya I bow to Shiva who has Nandi the bull for his vehicle I bow to Shiva the destroyer of restlessness... , "m6" <megalith6@h...> wrote: > Furthermore, the Pashupati archetype on the Mohenjo seal appears to > equate to Shiva on the one hand, and the Celtic Kernunnos, on the > other. > > There is so much we do not comprehend about remote history - and > there is so much there to be understood! > > m6 > > > , "Demon King of Havoc" > <laroye2003> wrote: > > There are images of Shiva from Harrapan & Mohenjo-daro period (on > > cylinder seals) that predate Vedic 'Aryan' influence in the > > subcontinent...this leads many scholars to conclude that Shiva was > > originally a non-Aryan deity, who was merged with the Vedic god > Rudra. > > > > > > > > > > , "satisharigela" > > <satisharigela> wrote: > > > Namaste, > > > > > > Many things in the article do not make any sense. The article > seems > > > to be based on out-dated knowledge like Aryan invasion, which is > > > false and irrelevant. > > > > > > The rest of the article(ex:shiva likely a non-aryan god etc- > funny) > > > need not be taken seriously. > > > > > > regards > > > satish. > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Nora" > > > <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > > > > Hindu, Tribal religions and synthesis > > > > > > > > In the early historical period, the vedic-puranic religion was > > > > probably not very strong in Bengal: in fact, this > `aryanization' of > > > > bengal probably did not happen till the post-Gupta period. A > number > > > > of features of Hinduism, however, can be traced to non-indo- > europen > > > > origins. > > > > > > > > In fact, it was during this early period that the writings of > manu > > > > (1st century BC) and the development of the six schools of > > > philosophy > > > > which started to define a hinduism clearly recognizable today; > but > > > > none of this may have influenced contemporary bengal. > > > > > > > > The tribal religions in Bengal today has a large emphasis on > the > > > > worship of non-animate spirits embodying the world around us: > the > > > > places, rocks, trees and forests playing an important role in > these > > > > beliefs. There is little reason to doubt the ancient origins of > > > this > > > > complex; and, indeed, a large part of folk hinduism seems to > > > consist > > > > of similar beliefs. > > > > > > > > Thus, for example, the veneration of the tulsi plant, the vaTa > > > tree, > > > > or the seora tree; the planting of a branch in the sacred areas > as > > > a > > > > symbol of the tree; the use of parts of the banana plant as a > > > symbol > > > > of a married woman; the use of an ear of paddy as a part of the > > > > ceremony; the grains of rice and stalks of durvA grass used in > > > > benediction; the use of turmeric in washing the bride during > > > > marriage; the use of Ak, cAl-kumD.A, banana, betelnut, pAn, > > > turmeric, > > > > coconut, vermillion, cowdung, kaD.i, khai, yoghurt, etc. in > various > > > > ceremonies; and the traditional associations of certain animals > > > with > > > > certain gods probably point to a significant Indian, and > bengali, > > > > contribution to the common hinduism. > > > > > > > > In fact, it is likely that many of the current Hindu divinities > > > like > > > > shiva, kAli, karAlI, nArAYaNa shilA, gaNesha, bhairava, and > > > Buddhist > > > > ones like jambhila, hArItI, ekajaTA, nairAtmA, bhRkuTi etc. are > of > > > > non-aryan origin. > > > > > > > > However, the nature of this early religion is difficult to > > > ascertain > > > > today. In the modern world, we do find sacred places, sometimes > > > even > > > > without the idol of any god, which are held sacred, and to the > god > > > of > > > > which local people promise and sacrifice so that their hopes be > > > > fulfilled. These village deities have various names in various > > > > places, and have often been identified with the higher pantheon > of > > > > hindu gods and goddesses. > > > > > > > > Their worship has not always been sanctioned by hinduism --- > manu > > > > very often calls their worshippers fallen hindus --- but they > still > > > > remain a very important part of folk hinduism. In fact, some of > the > > > > hindu deities like shitalA, manasA, vanadurgA, SaSThI, caNDI, > kalI, > > > > shiva, parNashavarI, jaGgulI are almost definitely of non- indo- > > > > european origin. > > > > > > > > The dhvajApujas definitely formed a part of ancient bengali > folk > > > > tradition; at least, descriptions of indradhvajA survives from > > > before > > > > the 11th century. Similarly, one finds descriptions of > sacredness > > > of > > > > the vaTa tree and its association with kubera and lakSmI, > > > > descriptions of animal sacrifice and worship of stones and > places, > > > > and descriptions of the gods of agricultural products and > processes > > > > like extraction of sugarcane juice. > > > > > > > > This is an extract from article entitled : Religion in Ancient > > > > Bengal: Before guptas. For more go to: > > > > http://tanmoy.tripod.com/bengal/preguptarelig.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 Om Aim Saraswatyai Namah , "laroye2003" <laroye2003> wrote: > Om Namah Sivaya Sivaya Namah Om > Nandi Vahana Namah Sivaya > Sada Lola Hara Namah Sivaya > > I bow to Shiva who has Nandi the bull for his vehicle > > I bow to Shiva the destroyer of restlessness... > , "m6" <megalith6@h...> wrote: > > > Furthermore, the Pashupati archetype on the Mohenjo seal appears > to > > equate to Shiva on the one hand, and the Celtic Kernunnos, on the > > other. > > > > There is so much we do not comprehend about remote history - and > > there is so much there to be understood! > > > > m6 > > > > > > , "Demon King of Havoc" > > <laroye2003> wrote: > > > There are images of Shiva from Harrapan & Mohenjo-daro period (on > > > cylinder seals) that predate Vedic 'Aryan' influence in the > > > subcontinent...this leads many scholars to conclude that Shiva > was > > > originally a non-Aryan deity, who was merged with the Vedic god > > Rudra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "satisharigela" > > > <satisharigela> wrote: > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > Many things in the article do not make any sense. The > article > > seems > > > > to be based on out-dated knowledge like Aryan invasion, which > is > > > > false and irrelevant. > > > > > > > > The rest of the article(ex:shiva likely a non-aryan god etc- > > funny) > > > > need not be taken seriously. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > satish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Nora" > > > > <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > > > > > Hindu, Tribal religions and synthesis > > > > > > > > > > In the early historical period, the vedic-puranic religion > was > > > > > probably not very strong in Bengal: in fact, this > > `aryanization' of > > > > > bengal probably did not happen till the post-Gupta period. A > > number > > > > > of features of Hinduism, however, can be traced to non-indo- > > europen > > > > > origins. > > > > > > > > > > In fact, it was during this early period that the writings > of > > manu > > > > > (1st century BC) and the development of the six schools of > > > > philosophy > > > > > which started to define a hinduism clearly recognizable > today; > > but > > > > > none of this may have influenced contemporary bengal. > > > > > > > > > > The tribal religions in Bengal today has a large emphasis on > > the > > > > > worship of non-animate spirits embodying the world around > us: > > the > > > > > places, rocks, trees and forests playing an important role > in > > these > > > > > beliefs. There is little reason to doubt the ancient origins > of > > > > this > > > > > complex; and, indeed, a large part of folk hinduism seems to > > > > consist > > > > > of similar beliefs. > > > > > > > > > > Thus, for example, the veneration of the tulsi plant, the > vaTa > > > > tree, > > > > > or the seora tree; the planting of a branch in the sacred > areas > > as > > > > a > > > > > symbol of the tree; the use of parts of the banana plant as > a > > > > symbol > > > > > of a married woman; the use of an ear of paddy as a part of > the > > > > > ceremony; the grains of rice and stalks of durvA grass used > in > > > > > benediction; the use of turmeric in washing the bride during > > > > > marriage; the use of Ak, cAl-kumD.A, banana, betelnut, pAn, > > > > turmeric, > > > > > coconut, vermillion, cowdung, kaD.i, khai, yoghurt, etc. in > > various > > > > > ceremonies; and the traditional associations of certain > animals > > > > with > > > > > certain gods probably point to a significant Indian, and > > bengali, > > > > > contribution to the common hinduism. > > > > > > > > > > In fact, it is likely that many of the current Hindu > divinities > > > > like > > > > > shiva, kAli, karAlI, nArAYaNa shilA, gaNesha, bhairava, and > > > > Buddhist > > > > > ones like jambhila, hArItI, ekajaTA, nairAtmA, bhRkuTi etc. > are > > of > > > > > non-aryan origin. > > > > > > > > > > However, the nature of this early religion is difficult to > > > > ascertain > > > > > today. In the modern world, we do find sacred places, > sometimes > > > > even > > > > > without the idol of any god, which are held sacred, and to > the > > god > > > > of > > > > > which local people promise and sacrifice so that their hopes > be > > > > > fulfilled. These village deities have various names in > various > > > > > places, and have often been identified with the higher > pantheon > > of > > > > > hindu gods and goddesses. > > > > > > > > > > Their worship has not always been sanctioned by hinduism --- > > manu > > > > > very often calls their worshippers fallen hindus --- but > they > > still > > > > > remain a very important part of folk hinduism. In fact, some > of > > the > > > > > hindu deities like shitalA, manasA, vanadurgA, SaSThI, > caNDI, > > kalI, > > > > > shiva, parNashavarI, jaGgulI are almost definitely of non- > indo- > > > > > european origin. > > > > > > > > > > The dhvajApujas definitely formed a part of ancient bengali > > folk > > > > > tradition; at least, descriptions of indradhvajA survives > from > > > > before > > > > > the 11th century. Similarly, one finds descriptions of > > sacredness > > > > of > > > > > the vaTa tree and its association with kubera and lakSmI, > > > > > descriptions of animal sacrifice and worship of stones and > > places, > > > > > and descriptions of the gods of agricultural products and > > processes > > > > > like extraction of sugarcane juice. > > > > > > > > > > This is an extract from article entitled : Religion in > Ancient > > > > > Bengal: Before guptas. For more go to: > > > > > http://tanmoy.tripod.com/bengal/preguptarelig.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 Om Sivanujayai Namaha Salutations to (Sarasvati) the younger sister of Siva --- m6 <megalith6 wrote: > Om Aim Saraswatyai Namah > > , "laroye2003" > <laroye2003> > wrote: > > Om Namah Sivaya Sivaya Namah Om > > Nandi Vahana Namah Sivaya > > Sada Lola Hara Namah Sivaya > > > > I bow to Shiva who has Nandi the bull for his > vehicle > > > > I bow to Shiva the destroyer of restlessness... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "m6" > <megalith6@h...> wrote: > > > > > Furthermore, the Pashupati archetype on the > Mohenjo seal appears > > to > > > equate to Shiva on the one hand, and the Celtic > Kernunnos, on the > > > other. > > > > > > There is so much we do not comprehend about > remote history - and > > > there is so much there to be understood! > > > > > > m6 > > > > > > > > > , "Demon > King of Havoc" > > > <laroye2003> wrote: > > > > There are images of Shiva from Harrapan & > Mohenjo-daro period > (on > > > > cylinder seals) that predate Vedic 'Aryan' > influence in the > > > > subcontinent...this leads many scholars to > conclude that Shiva > > was > > > > originally a non-Aryan deity, who was merged > with the Vedic god > > > Rudra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , > "satisharigela" > > > > <satisharigela> wrote: > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > Many things in the article do not make any > sense. The > > article > > > seems > > > > > to be based on out-dated knowledge like > Aryan invasion, which > > is > > > > > false and irrelevant. > > > > > > > > > > The rest of the article(ex:shiva likely a > non-aryan god > etc- > > > funny) > > > > > need not be taken seriously. > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > satish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , > "Nora" > > > > > <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > > > > > > Hindu, Tribal religions and synthesis > > > > > > > > > > > > In the early historical period, the > vedic-puranic religion > > was > > > > > > probably not very strong in Bengal: in > fact, this > > > `aryanization' of > > > > > > bengal probably did not happen till the > post-Gupta period. > A > > > number > > > > > > of features of Hinduism, however, can be > traced to non-indo- > > > europen > > > > > > origins. > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, it was during this early period > that the writings > > of > > > manu > > > > > > (1st century BC) and the development of > the six schools of > > > > > philosophy > > > > > > which started to define a hinduism clearly > recognizable > > today; > > > but > > > > > > none of this may have influenced > contemporary bengal. > > > > > > > > > > > > The tribal religions in Bengal today has a > large emphasis > on > > > the > > > > > > worship of non-animate spirits embodying > the world around > > us: > > > the > > > > > > places, rocks, trees and forests playing > an important role > > in > > > these > > > > > > beliefs. There is little reason to doubt > the ancient > origins > > of > > > > > this > > > > > > complex; and, indeed, a large part of folk > hinduism seems > to > > > > > consist > > > > > > of similar beliefs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, for example, the veneration of the > tulsi plant, the > > vaTa > > > > > tree, > > > > > > or the seora tree; the planting of a > branch in the sacred > > areas > > > as > > > > > a > > > > > > symbol of the tree; the use of parts of > the banana plant as > > a > > > > > symbol > > > > > > of a married woman; the use of an ear of > paddy as a part of > > the > > > > > > ceremony; the grains of rice and stalks of > durvA grass used > > in > > > > > > benediction; the use of turmeric in > washing the bride > during > > > > > > marriage; the use of Ak, cAl-kumD.A, > banana, betelnut, pAn, > > > > > turmeric, > > > > > > coconut, vermillion, cowdung, kaD.i, khai, > yoghurt, etc. in > > > various > > > > > > ceremonies; and the traditional > associations of certain > > animals > > > > > with > > > > > > certain gods probably point to a > significant Indian, and > > > bengali, > > > > > > contribution to the common hinduism. > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, it is likely that many of the > current Hindu > > divinities > > > > > like > > > > > > shiva, kAli, karAlI, nArAYaNa shilA, > gaNesha, bhairava, and > > > > > Buddhist > > > > > > ones like jambhila, hArItI, ekajaTA, > nairAtmA, bhRkuTi etc. > > are > > > of > > > > > > non-aryan origin. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the nature of this early religion > is difficult to > > > > > ascertain > > > > > > today. In the modern world, we do find > sacred places, > > sometimes > > > > > even > > > > > > without the idol of any god, which are > held sacred, and to > > the > > > god > > > > > of > > > > > > which local people promise and sacrifice > so that their > === message truncated === Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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