Guest guest Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Dear Friends, As always, there is another side to the story and this one, I fear, is likely more factual than the pleasant spin in the previous articles. Peace with you. Om Krim Kali! Tom BBC and Guardian cover up US role in Iraq looting http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jun2003/loot-j14.shtml , "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta> wrote: > Dear Prainbow! > > Thanks for sharing this good piece of news, my sister archealogy > buff! I especially appreciated the lyrical description of the the > Uruk Vase, and what it seems to represent. Like many other art > lovers, I was both astonished and relieved to learn that virtually > the entire contents of the museum had been safely stowed away by > museum employees, weeks before the U.S. invasion: > > Iraq museum artifacts found in Central Bank > By Hamza Hendawi, The Associated Press > > BAGHDAD, Iraq, June 8, 2003 -- The world-famous treasures of Nimrud, > unaccounted for since Baghdad fell two months ago, have been located > in good condition in the country's Central Bank -- in a secret vault- > inside-a-vault submerged in sewage water, U.S. occupation authorities > said Saturday. > > They also said fewer than 50 items from the collection of the Iraqi > National Museum's main exhibition are still missing after the looting > and destruction that followed the U.S. capture of Baghdad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Wow, thanks Tom ... I had no idea about this, although it's depressingly consistent with a lot of other things I've been reading about the occupation that's selectively ignored by the big networks. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, and keeping us on our toes ... DB --- "Thomas M. Fiddler" <tfiddler wrote: > Dear Friends, > > As always, there is another side to the story and > this one, I fear, > is likely more factual than the pleasant spin in the > previous > articles. > > Peace with you. > > Om Krim Kali! > > Tom > > BBC and Guardian cover up US role in Iraq looting > http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jun2003/loot-j14.shtml ===== * Please visit the Shakti Sadhana Homepage at http://www.shaktisadhana.org * Please join the Shakti Sadhana Group at SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Namaste, Yes, it's good that there's some bickering going on in the media as opposed to the multi-outlet/single POV treatment that so many Americans become accustomed to. This story is indeed more complicated than most. I'm simply glad that the oldest known sacrificial vase (dedicated to the Goddess) has been returned. It is also nice to know that some other artifacts, previously thought to be missing are not missing. I am aware that the lawlessness of the country is contributing to a continued loss of historical artifacts. In fact, I saw an article indicating that looters are hitting dig sites and going at it with shovels to glean a few pots for the open market without any regard to the kind of care and information gathering that should accompany excavation of these items. This is tragic. However, looters are always a problem at dig sites. Every book you read about digs, especially in Egypt has anecdotes about the problem of looters and the lengths that archeologists have to go to to thwart them. And Iraq is still a war zone. Even before the war historians had trouble getting access to and controlling historical sites. Now, with people starving and society in disarray...well, I don't think that it's going to get better. The journalist involved in the "cover-up" actually had one good point, albiet he twisted it to his own POV: <<He belittled the importance of cultural history in giving the Iraqi people a sense of their identity when compared to the evidence of mass murder in Abu Ghurayb prison.>> Obviously it would be more important for me to prevent a murder than to prevent a looting if I had to make a personal choice. However, we are not talking about one or the other here. There has been both mass murders AND looting of the Iraqi cultural history. Both are terrible tragedies, and each deepens the tragedy of the other. I pray that our loving and all powerful Mother brings some peace and comfort to these people, and wisdom to those who are making decisions in this mess. And I'm glad we got back Her vase. Blessed Be, prainbow , "Thomas M. Fiddler" <tfiddler@c...> wrote: > Dear Friends, > > As always, there is another side to the story and this one, I fear, > is likely more factual than the pleasant spin in the previous > articles. > > Peace with you. > > Om Krim Kali! > > Tom > > BBC and Guardian cover up US role in Iraq looting > http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jun2003/loot-j14.shtml > > , "Devi Bhakta" > <devi_bhakta> wrote: > > Dear Prainbow! > > > > Thanks for sharing this good piece of news, my sister archealogy > > buff! I especially appreciated the lyrical description of the the > > Uruk Vase, and what it seems to represent. Like many other art > > lovers, I was both astonished and relieved to learn that virtually > > the entire contents of the museum had been safely stowed away by > > museum employees, weeks before the U.S. invasion: > > > > Iraq museum artifacts found in Central Bank > > By Hamza Hendawi, The Associated Press > > > > BAGHDAD, Iraq, June 8, 2003 -- The world-famous treasures of > Nimrud, > > unaccounted for since Baghdad fell two months ago, have been > located > > in good condition in the country's Central Bank -- in a secret > vault- > > inside-a-vault submerged in sewage water, U.S. occupation > authorities > > said Saturday. > > > > They also said fewer than 50 items from the collection of the Iraqi > > National Museum's main exhibition are still missing after the > looting > > and destruction that followed the U.S. capture of Baghdad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 [<<He belittled the importance of cultural history in giving the Iraqi people a sense of their identity when compared to the evidence of mass murder in Abu Ghurayb prison.>> Obviously it would be more important for me to prevent a murder than to prevent a looting if I had to make a personal choice. However, we are not talking about one or the other here. There has been both mass murders AND looting of the Iraqi cultural history. Both are terrible tragedies, and each deepens the tragedy of the other.] There definitely was not a choice of one or the other in reality. However the choice was made by my nation's military commanders to do nothing to prevent the looting even though they could spare the manpower to do so. Even a single tank would have dissuaded all but the most insane. Except now, in addition to covering up the looting, we have cover-ups of the murders of Iraqi citizens. The hypocrisy exercised by the 'coalition forces' in this regard is upsetting but typical. I am relieved that those treasures are safe. However, whether or not the Iraqi people themselves are safer now than before is open to much debate. Regardless, may they strengthen their Selves against whatever onslaughts the world sends their way. May we all. Om Krim Kali! -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 > [<<He belittled the importance of cultural history in giving the > Iraqi > people a sense of their identity when compared to the evidence of > mass murder in Abu Ghurayb prison.>> > > Obviously it would be more important for me to prevent a murder than > to prevent a looting if I had to make a personal choice. However, we > are not talking about one or the other here. There has been > both mass > murders AND looting of the Iraqi cultural history. > Both are terrible tragedies, and each deepens the tragedy > of the other. There was a certain superiority among my Muslim friends when they talked about their culture and the lack of crime. However, once the restrictions were off it was bedlam. Either Islam did not mean anything or it requires a priest or mula to keep control because there is no self regulation. I mean this not to sound pre-judgemental in a pejorative way but wouldn't you have found that the Muslims there would have exercised more civility and self control? What the military have said is that the war progressed much faster than they themselves had predicted. They weren't ready for such a fast collapse of the Iraq. I am sure that Iraq would have taken troops to defend such countries like France and Germany that were aligned with them to defind such treasures. Did Iraq make any kind of effort like that? The good news is that most of what was missing was returned or found. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Eric: Who said the looters were Iraqis? How did they pre-select objects? It was all western mafia. And wealthy westerners with no history was drooling and waiting with Moola to buy the things and probably they commissioned the thefts. Was US not warned of the possibility of looting ? Then why no action was taken? Because it was planned and US army had its orders!! It was because the IRAQIS took care that most of the things were not stolen. They hit the artifacts in flooded vaults. It is unfortunate that you say a religion’s followers have no self control. That’s a bad statement. Most of the looters of the 18th century to to-day of historical artifacts were westerners and Christians to boot. But I WILL NOT say Christians lack self-control. And they make legislations to prevent claims by rightful owners. Is America and Americans having any self control when you consider the crime rate there? But that’s the cultural thing. I will not blame ALL Americans. I know some really GOOD Americans. What is Europe’s history – the Ice Man? While Iceman was wandering in the Alps clad in skins and all that (they say what wonderful stitching!!), in the East people were living in palaces wearing fine clothes of silk and cotton. Who said it was Copernicus ho invented the heliocentric theory? It was known in India long ago; who said Keplar “invented” his laws? It was in USE in India millennia before. BASIC discovery is alien to the west. They stole most and gave parents to them. That is all - to bolster non-existent culture. They destroyed civilizations to gloat over what little they have. Now they are trying to patent Indian indigenous knowledge. C’mon lets not condemn a people or race or religion. If you point one finger at another remember that 3 point to you. I wrote against the west mainly to show what counter arguments can be. These arguments, though true, is not cultured but I had to make them to show the true picture. Eric Otto <mkultra wrote: > [<<He belittled the importance of cultural history in giving the Iraqi people a sense of their identity when compared to the evidence of mass murder in Abu Ghurayb prison.>> Obviously it would be more important for me to prevent a murder than to prevent a looting if I had to make a personal choice. However, we are not talking about one or the other here. There has been both mass murders AND looting of the Iraqi cultural history. Both are terrible tragedies, and each deepens the tragedy of the other. There was a certain superiority among my Muslim friends when they talked about their culture and the lack of crime. However, once the restrictions were off it was bedlam. Either Islam did not mean anything or it requires a priest or mula to keep control because there is no self regulation. I mean this not to sound pre-judgemental in a pejorative way but wouldn't you have found that the Muslims there would have exercised more civility and self control? What the military have said is that the war progressed much faster than they themselves had predicted. They weren't ready for such a fast collapse of the Iraq. I am sure that Iraq would have taken troops to defend such countries like France and Germany that were aligned with them to defind such treasures. Did Iraq make any kind of effort like that? The good news is that most of what was missing was returned or found. Eric SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 I guess I was prejudice with the expecation of of a higher order of conduct for Islamic people. I wasn't making a judgement (though judgement is not a bad thing on occassion) as much as an observation. Western Mafia is a bit of a stretch for me and who says the looters weren't Iraqis. Not all the looting was limited to the museum. It is all ultimately speculation at this point. There is always much unknown. > > Was US not warned of the possibility of looting ? Then why no > action was taken? Because it was planned and US army had > its orders!! Probably because they were busy being warriors. Warriors kind of get that way. Seriously, from the interviews that I read on the subject, they had no idea that Iraq would collapse so quickly. The clue to this that the soldiers trained to help to establish the order had not even arrived in the mid-East. The US military planners apparently had no worked out the plans once they achieve victory there. It has been a slow go to restore water and electricity. Somehow they must have expected something different than what occured. They made a mistake. > > It was because the IRAQIS took care that most of the things > were not stolen. They hit the artifacts in flooded vaults. > > It is unfortunate that you say a religion's followers have > no self control. That's a bad statement. I think it may be a bad statement or feel bad but it accurate. It was the reality there. It is something we need to think about. When I deal with the street kids in the US so full of hate and violence, it makes me sad. Genetics or environment are what is said is the cause. But are they not born with souls or spirits, too? The point or edge of morality rest with the individual and in th moment. My expectations from my Islamic friends was a level of morality higher than our own. > Most of the looters of the 18th century to to-day of historical > artifacts were westerners and Christians to boot. But I WILL NOT > say Christians lack self-control. And they make legislations > to prevent claims by rightful owners. > > Is America and Americans having any self control when you > consider the crime rate there? But that's the cultural thing. I > will not blame ALL Americans. I know some really GOOD Americans. I hope you aren't implying that I'm a BAD American. :-) I don't try to be a bad American. You are supporting my point of view and the point of view of my Islamic friends about how violent it is in the US. That finger pointing has sort of come back to haunt them - three times I guess. Of what I have been reading of the mid-Eastern papers, there seems to be a lot of concern by Muslims about how they treat other Muslims. To me this is a good thing. It is that kind of soul searching that may lead to better lives and hope for those people living there. Hatred is not a good thing. Killing is not a good thing. I can't speak much about the 18th century looters. The US didn't have a Constitution until about the 1780's and was a collection of states for the most part. The ethos about taking such things just didn't exist. Although, I was reading some of the things that the US didn't do to China during the Boxer Rebellion and we on occassion did do some nice things. > > What is Europe's history – the Ice Man? While Iceman was > wandering in the Alps clad in skins and all that (they say > what wonderful stitching!!), in the East people were living > in palaces wearing fine clothes of silk and cotton. Isn't that the truth! > Who said it was Copernicus ho invented the heliocentric theory? > It was known in India long ago; who said Keplar "invented" his laws? > It was in USE in India millennia before. BASIC discovery is alien to > the west. They stole most and gave parents to them. That is all - > to bolster non-existent culture. They destroyed civilizations > to gloat over what little they have. Think about it, we didn't have zero until rather recently. Though your statement does sound a bit condemning. > > Now they are trying to patent Indian indigenous knowledge. > > C'mon lets not condemn a people or race or religion. If you > point one finger at another remember that 3 point to you. I'm still not sure I was condemning as much as trying to see what was there. What I see is lots and lots of anger and hate. I also don't see a lot of solution either. If the US weren't there, would someone else been sellected to project upon? The problem in the mid-East ultimately orginate from within just as yours or my problems originate from within. You or I hate this one or that one, to a certain extent it is something within us that is causing the problem. I'm not saying that because all the right people and books say that, it comes from experience where it becomes apparent that much of what are my "problems" are from me. As long as the US or some other country are the center of a nation's anger, it means that they don't have to feel there own pain or shame or see what is in front of them. It also means that the spiritual resources both subtle and sublime aren't available to do the real work such as building schools or industries for making sure your or my children have a better life or finding peace. It is such a dark place that. > I wrote against the west mainly to show what counter arguments > can be. These arguments, though true, is not cultured but I had > to make them to show the true picture. > I'm not sure the west will worry about it. It is struggling with many things at the moment and perfection isn't one of them. We're muddling through this time as much as everyone else. We don't have the answers nor are we all knowing. My prayer is that we can transition out of the use of oil in the foreseeable future. When that happens the concerns of the mid-East will be for them alone and we can pursue happiness once again. I appreciated your comments. Sincerely, Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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