Guest guest Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 onsdagen den 2 juli 2003 21.28 skrev Arjunananda Gauranga Dasa: > There was a request sent to me by a wonderful friend requesting that > I reply to a post entitled "Why are Gaudiya Vaishnavas so > Intolerant?". In this post, there were several questions asked that > are certainly viable. It is not my intent to offend anyone, so I > humbly ask for forgiveness now if any find offense to this post. It > is my intention to teach what the position of Gaudiya Vaishnavaism > is, not the separatism that it has become known for. I am different and have a different opinion. Gaudiya Vaisnavism is a pure bhakti path. So how come there are so many words, such emphesis on the Vedas, and scriptural teachings? Nothing of that has anything to do directly with bhakti. It is side tracks. Nothing of that leads to bhakti. And still, the world is overflowing with "Gaudiya Vaisnavas", that appears to put an equal sign between bhakti and scholarship. Was it here I read "careful to read too many scriptures -- you can become a scholar"? That in particular refers to bhakti yogis. I don't recommend bhakti yoga to westeners. It is as simple as that. You need a very particular mentality not to fall into the big scholarship trap. Of course, the world need scholars. But the world also need bhakti yogis who have reached bhakti. Funny, as it is, I sometimes equate bhakti with the quest for a state of continual bliss. More like the quest for the ultimate cosmic spiritual orgasm, like some tantrics strive for, than the dry study of vedic scriptures. There are differences, but I think there are more similarities than one think. One realisation of the supreme is not too much different than the other. A bhakti yogi has other goals in sight, but that's another thing. First the state of realisation of the supreme has to be reached. People of all paths, that have not reached their goal, or touched it, often have no idea what they are doing. Bhakti is not about reading about those who have bhakti. It is nothing you can experience second hand. It can be a pretty severe practice to get it yourself. Quite severe, since you have to be ready to give up everything to get to the bhakti point. Other paths can let you keep many more things. Bhakti is simply a complete surrender to the God/Goddess that is the object of your devotion. A total surrender. No questions asked, no buts and ifs. And the amount of things, inner things, you have to give up can make the impurities come to the surface. And if there is the impurity of intolerance, it will be seen. At that point the bhakti yogi has to do everything to battle that impurity, since it is an impediments on the path. Bhakti is not a walk alone. It is a walk together with the object of your devotion. But the Goddess can be the most severe teacher. There is no escape or cheating. And if She want you to give up the thing that you love the most, you have to. No pardon. But the benefit of that continual reliationship is bhakti. The bliss and excstacy of bhakti, that follows you at every step, even in your greatest dispair (that that time will come). Bhakti yoga is a kind of insanity path. It is a path where you will loose everything, and have to laugh about it. You will become seen as a mad(wo)man. It is not a particular social path, that is compatible with material society. But bhakti is wonderful. jay Radhe Prisni devi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 Namaste, Prisni: Thank you for your considered and intelligent post; I always find your thoughts worth reading. *** I don't recommend bhakti yoga to westerners. It is as simple as that. You need a very particular mentality not to fall into the big scholarship trap. *** This seems true to me on a gut level. The "scholarship trap" is easy to spot in others, but I've felt it in myself as well as I'm sure others have. I do think it is an issue of mentality. For some reason, I've been lucky enough to have some amazingly good guidance and advice along the way, but it is still a constant concern. I think the essence is, you're slipping when you find yourself thinking about the Shakta (or whatever) system objectively and descriptively, as if it were something coming from outside you rather than inside. Certainly but do you not think that many of Eastern origin are also susceptible in this day and age? The "mentality" you speak of has long since wandered beyond the West. Or that is certainly my impression. *** Of course, the world need scholars. But the world also need bhakti yogis who have reached bhakti. *** That is a nice line. And true. *** Bhakti is not about reading about those who have bhakti. It is nothing you can experience second hand. It can be a pretty severe practice to get it yourself. *** That goes back to the scholarship idea, but I'll repeat your line because I like it. *** the Goddess can be the most severe teacher. There is no escape or cheating. And if She want you to give up the thing that you love the most, you have to. No pardon. *** This is so true. I do not know how many people who are attracted to Her realize what they're in for once they allow themselves to do what they must, and surrender. Aum Maatangyai Namahe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 Hare Krishna, all glories to Guru and Gauranga. As in response to Prisni Mataji's reply to the post on the Gaudiya Vaisnavaism, the questions related to the demigods, not to Bhakti, so I did not address Bhakti in my post, only the Gaudiya view of the roll of the demigods. I placed sastra in the text to point out the words of Sri Krishna, Lord Brahma and Lord Genesha to illistrate my point, nothing more. As far as being a scholar, I am far from one, I know sastra, but don't feel I am qualified to argue sastra. I am curious concerning your statement, that, "I don't recommend Bhakti to westerners." Why is this your opinion? The first lesson of Bhakti is the realization that "I am not this body." This concept leads one to realize that he/she only belongs to his/her beloved, not to themselves. If I am not this body, but the spirit soul within, then I can also conclude that I am not an American, an Indian, a Russian, a German, or whatever the bodily distinctions may be implied by the mind. I believe that it would have been a great misfortune if the path of bhakti had not come to America, denying those of us the chance the experience of bhakti-rasa. Personally, I do not see my relationship with Radhe-Krishna as severe or callous. I have never had the problem of anxiety over any type of belonging. It is not that one can not have possessions, it is that one should not allow their possessions to hinder their service to Radhe-Krishna. The possessions that I have do not dictate who or what I am in my relationship with Radhe-Krishna, it is the condition of my heart that matters. But I guess that this depends on the individual and their level of spiritual advancement. But I agree that devotional service can become a hardship at times, but that shows me where I have work to do. I do not see it as a problem, only a difficulty that Sri Radhe-Krishna wants to walk me through so that my relationship with Them becomes sweeter, closer and more loving. This, as a devotee is my goal. Your eternal servant: Arjunananda Gauranga Maharaj , Prisni <pgd-prisni@a...> wrote: > onsdagen den 2 juli 2003 21.28 skrev Arjunananda Gauranga Dasa: > > > There was a request sent to me by a wonderful friend requesting that > > I reply to a post entitled "Why are Gaudiya Vaishnavas so > > Intolerant?". In this post, there were several questions asked that > > are certainly viable. It is not my intent to offend anyone, so I > > humbly ask for forgiveness now if any find offense to this post. It > > is my intention to teach what the position of Gaudiya Vaishnavaism > > is, not the separatism that it has become known for. > > I am different and have a different opinion. > > Gaudiya Vaisnavism is a pure bhakti path. So how come there are so many words, > such emphesis on the Vedas, and scriptural teachings? Nothing of that has > anything to do directly with bhakti. It is side tracks. Nothing of that leads > to bhakti. And still, the world is overflowing with "Gaudiya Vaisnavas", that > appears to put an equal sign between bhakti and scholarship. > > Was it here I read "careful to read too many scriptures -- you can become a > scholar"? That in particular refers to bhakti yogis. > > I don't recommend bhakti yoga to westeners. It is as simple as that. You need > a very particular mentality not to fall into the big scholarship trap. Of > course, the world need scholars. But the world also need bhakti yogis who > have reached bhakti. > > Funny, as it is, I sometimes equate bhakti with the quest for a state of > continual bliss. More like the quest for the ultimate cosmic spiritual > orgasm, like some tantrics strive for, than the dry study of vedic > scriptures. There are differences, but I think there are more similarities > than one think. One realisation of the supreme is not too much different than > the other. A bhakti yogi has other goals in sight, but that's another thing. > First the state of realisation of the supreme has to be reached. > > People of all paths, that have not reached their goal, or touched it, often > have no idea what they are doing. > > Bhakti is not about reading about those who have bhakti. It is nothing you can > experience second hand. It can be a pretty severe practice to get it > yourself. Quite severe, since you have to be ready to give up everything to > get to the bhakti point. Other paths can let you keep many more things. > Bhakti is simply a complete surrender to the God/Goddess that is the object of > your devotion. A total surrender. No questions asked, no buts and ifs. And > the amount of things, inner things, you have to give up can make the > impurities come to the surface. And if there is the impurity of intolerance, > it will be seen. At that point the bhakti yogi has to do everything to battle > that impurity, since it is an impediments on the path. > > Bhakti is not a walk alone. It is a walk together with the object of your > devotion. But the Goddess can be the most severe teacher. There is no escape > or cheating. And if She want you to give up the thing that you love the most, > you have to. No pardon. But the benefit of that continual reliationship is > bhakti. The bliss and excstacy of bhakti, that follows you at every step, > even in your greatest dispair (that that time will come). > > Bhakti yoga is a kind of insanity path. It is a path where you will loose > everything, and have to laugh about it. You will become seen as a mad(wo)man. > It is not a particular social path, that is compatible with material society. > > But bhakti is wonderful. > > jay Radhe > > Prisni devi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 Namaste, It is the surrender that is so very hard. And I don't think that it is done only once. I find myself repeatedly at that juncture, where I must either surrender or force myself forward in hopeless clinging to my delusions. It always amazes me. Where did I give up my devotion, my connection my complete surrender? How did I end up here again, afraid to lose something I desperately want, regardless of Her intentions for me. How did I end up again at the mirror, looking into the eyes of a woman who has to choose between some selfish desire that will not even likely come to fruition and the Goddess Herself who is the wishgiving tree? I am remade continually. prainbow , "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta> wrote: > Namaste, Prisni: > > Thank you for your considered and intelligent post; I always find > your thoughts worth reading. > > *** I don't recommend bhakti yoga to westerners. It is as simple as > that. You need a very particular mentality not to fall into the big > scholarship trap. *** > > This seems true to me on a gut level. The "scholarship trap" is easy > to spot in others, but I've felt it in myself as well as I'm sure > others have. I do think it is an issue of mentality. For some reason, > I've been lucky enough to have some amazingly good guidance and > advice along the way, but it is still a constant concern. I think the > essence is, you're slipping when you find yourself thinking about the > Shakta (or whatever) system objectively and descriptively, as if it > were something coming from outside you rather than inside. Certainly > but do you not think that many of Eastern origin are also susceptible > in this day and age? The "mentality" you speak of has long since > wandered beyond the West. Or that is certainly my impression. > > *** Of course, the world need scholars. But the world also need > bhakti yogis who have reached bhakti. *** > > That is a nice line. And true. > > *** Bhakti is not about reading about those who have bhakti. It is > nothing you can experience second hand. It can be a pretty severe > practice to get it yourself. *** > > That goes back to the scholarship idea, but I'll repeat your line > because I like it. > > *** the Goddess can be the most severe teacher. There is no escape or > cheating. And if She want you to give up the thing that you love the > most, you have to. No pardon. *** > > This is so true. I do not know how many people who are attracted to > Her realize what they're in for once they allow themselves to do what > they must, and surrender. > > Aum Maatangyai Namahe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 torsdagen den 3 juli 2003 15.43 skrev Devi Bhakta: > Thank you for your considered and intelligent post; I always find > your thoughts worth reading. Thank you for your encouragement. I am trying to write reasonable things, but it is not always so easy. It is a learning experience to try to write reasonable. > This seems true to me on a gut level. The "scholarship trap" is easy > to spot in others, but I've felt it in myself as well as I'm sure > others have. When all you can respond is scriptural quotes, or quotes from your guru, then you can start to worry :-) > Certainly > but do you not think that many of Eastern origin are also susceptible > in this day and age? The "mentality" you speak of has long since > wandered beyond the West. Or that is certainly my impression. I think that sounds like it is like you say. If Indians are interested in the west, they become the same after a while. If Indian spiritual lineages now are spreading to out of India, the previously spiritually fertile Indian soil, is probably not so anymore. > This is so true. I do not know how many people who are attracted to > Her realize what they're in for once they allow themselves to do what > they must, and surrender. Surrender is the word. And why not? It is a sweet surrender to a loving Goddess. It can be quite hard for the ego, though :-) Prisni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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