Yoga Sutras & Shakta

[Guest guest]

Hello Nora and All:

 

I have been pondering the Yoga Sutras attributed to Patanjali,

and I have some questions related to what Nora posted below

about Shaktas seeing the body as making them more holy.

 

1) Aren't the yoga sutras meant as a kind of map to transcend

the body?

 

2) Is the experience of the Divine a result of proper alignment

between physical, emotional, and intellectual, rather than

transcendence of it?

 

(BTW the above subject heading is making me want to form a

musical group called Shakti & the Yoga Sutras!)

 

-- Mary Ann

 

 

, "Nora"

<ashwini_puralasamy> wrote:

 

For centuries women are been made to feel

> dirty and unworthy, thus making it hard to clean that diamond.

In

> some beliefs, all see the body as something to be

transcended, it

> holds us back, drags us down and assert that women are

closer to the

> earth then men, thus makes it less holy. But to the Shaktas,

this is

> reverse: it makes them more holy, a step closer to the

Goddess.

[Guest guest]

Hi Maryann ...

 

I also liked Nora's post; I think it should be archived on the

homepage as a partial reference on this point. As a step toward

polishing and refining her idea, I'll take a preliminary shot at your

questions, then let other members (yourself included, of course!)

fill in the gaps in my understanding ...

 

*** about Shaktas seeing the body as making them more holy ***

 

I'd phrase this slightly differently: The Shaktas do not see the body

as making them less holy, or as a "bad" thing to deny and mortify, as

in more ascetic approaches to spirituality. Holiness is an absolute --

the body can be holy, and can be used to access holiness.

 

*** Aren't the yoga sutras meant as a kind of map to transcend the

body? ***

 

In a way, this is certainly true. But Patanjali's approach is not

necessarily a Shakta approach. As Kochu distinguishes on the homepage:

 

* The Yogic System (based on Pathanjali's Yoga Sutras ... requires a

certain amount of renunciation and is intended for ultimate

realisation of Godhead.

 

* The Tantric Systems are ... slightly different in content and

quality from ordinary spiritual practices, in which a great emphasis

is laid on renunciation, restraint, etc. It is said that, by Tantric

practices, one attains both the worldly pleasures and ultimate

realisation without any form of renunciation. In fact renunciation is

frowned upon in this system (though a certain amount of discipline is

called for).

 

For full context, see: http://www.shaktisadhana.org/shaktatantra.html

 

*** Is the experience of the Divine a result of proper alignment

between physical, emotional, and intellectual, rather than

transcendence of it? ***

 

I think a proper use of "physical, emotional, and intellectual" tools

enables an experience of transcendence rather than replacing it.

 

*** BTW the above subject heading is making me want to form a musical

group called Shakti & the Yoga Sutras! ***

 

Do it! LOL ... btw, what did you think of Susheela Raman's

Ardhanarishwara song?

(/message/6469)

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

 

DB

[Guest guest]

Hello Devi Bhakta: Thank you for the helpful information. Yes,

Nora's post was beautiful, and seemed to invite my question

about the goal of yoga, which actually entered my mind at the

end of my class this past Saturday. The question simply

presented itself in my mind. A former teacher of mine (Max

Strom) said: "The goal of yoga is to become unfrustrated." I feel

that I have learned how to become unfrustrated. I have recently

changed my practice to Iyenger, and a new goal is articulating

itself, apparently. Before I left the studio on Saturday, I asked a

teacher-in-training what the goal of yoga is. She said the answer

is in the Yoga Sutras. I've read them before and did not find the

answer, so that's why I was re-reading and pondering.

 

I agree that the alignment of physical, emotional, and intellectual

"enables" the experience called "transcendence." However, my

feeling is that "transcendence" is not distinguishable into two

ideas, "ultimate realization of Godhead" as one, and divinity

embodied, as per the Shakta Tantra understanding. I've had a

need for clarification of this since the sutras contain that ascetic

approach. I will re-read Kochu's article on Shakta Tantra. I also

think, though, that that experience of transcendence is what

happens when proper alignment between physical, emotional,

and intellectual occurs, so it's not a "replacement," but the same

thing, or transcendence is contained within the union of those

realms.

 

I enjoy the Susheela Raman CD very much. It reminds me of

Ammachi's 2003 release of Bhajans (Vol. 2) because the first

song on each is in English, though Ammachi's has a

non-English title of "Iswar Tumhi," unlike Susheela's "Love Trap."

I would like to find translations so I can know what Susheela is

saying in "Half Shiva, Half Shakti." I read online that the CD

comes with a booklet of translations but I bought mine used and

the sender didn't include the booklet. Can you possibly post the

lyrics? Does the booklet include the language she is singing in

as well as English?

 

Love to all,

Mary Ann

 

 

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> Hi Maryann ...

>

> I also liked Nora's post; I think it should be archived on the

> homepage as a partial reference on this point. As a step

toward

> polishing and refining her idea, I'll take a preliminary shot at

your

> questions, then let other members (yourself included, of

course!)

> fill in the gaps in my understanding ...

>

> *** about Shaktas seeing the body as making them more holy

***

>

> I'd phrase this slightly differently: The Shaktas do not see the

body

> as making them less holy, or as a "bad" thing to deny and

mortify, as

> in more ascetic approaches to spirituality. Holiness is an

absolute --

> the body can be holy, and can be used to access holiness.

>

> *** Aren't the yoga sutras meant as a kind of map to transcend

the

> body? ***

>

> In a way, this is certainly true. But Patanjali's approach is not

> necessarily a Shakta approach. As Kochu distinguishes on the

homepage:

>

> * The Yogic System (based on Pathanjali's Yoga Sutras ...

requires a

> certain amount of renunciation and is intended for ultimate

> realisation of Godhead.

>

> * The Tantric Systems are ... slightly different in content and

> quality from ordinary spiritual practices, in which a great

emphasis

> is laid on renunciation, restraint, etc. It is said that, by Tantric

> practices, one attains both the worldly pleasures and ultimate

> realisation without any form of renunciation. In fact renunciation

is

> frowned upon in this system (though a certain amount of

discipline is

> called for).

>

> For full context, see:

http://www.shaktisadhana.org/shaktatantra.html

>

> *** Is the experience of the Divine a result of proper alignment

> between physical, emotional, and intellectual, rather than

> transcendence of it? ***

>

> I think a proper use of "physical, emotional, and intellectual"

tools

> enables an experience of transcendence rather than replacing

it.

>

> *** BTW the above subject heading is making me want to form

a musical

> group called Shakti & the Yoga Sutras! ***

>

> Do it! LOL ... btw, what did you think of Susheela Raman's

> Ardhanarishwara song?

>

(/message/6469

)

>

> Aum Maatangyai Namahe

>

> DB

[Guest guest]

tisdagen den 22 juli 2003 06.21 skrev Mary Ann:

> Yes,

> Nora's post was beautiful, and seemed to invite my question

> about the goal of yoga, which actually entered my mind at the

> end of my class this past Saturday.

 

The goal of yoga is to not take birth in the material world again. Different

Indian spiritual lineages have different subdefinitions of exactly what state

to attain. The spirit "soul" is moveable, and not taking birth means to

attain a state where you can sustain your existence without a material body,

subtle or gross. For some it means to attain an existence where they merge

with the total spirit and loose their individuality, for others it means to

attain a state of personal relationship with the supreme spirit while

retaining their individuality. Both are possible.

 

Prisni

[Guest guest]

Hi Mary Ann;

 

Thanks again for a great post. You noted:

 

*** my feeling is that "transcendence" is not distinguishable into

two ideas, "ultimate realization of Godhead" as one, and divinity

embodied [as the other] ... it's not a "replacement," but the same

thing, or transcendence is contained within the union of those

realms. ***

 

I think you are quite right. I will defer to my more experienced and

knowledgeable co-moderator Kochu to elaborate, correct and clarify as

necessary -- but basically, the Shakta path is the only one that

offers the devotee both earthly joy (bhukti) and supreme liberation

(mukti). As the great Carnatic composer Dikshitar sang:

 

"Bhukti mukti prada mArgam brUhi, mAyAdhInam dInam mAm pAhi" (Tell me

the path that gives bhukti and mukti; O fear-allaying Ambika -

protect me, poor me, who am subjugated by Maya!)

 

You do not have to compartmentalize these ideas in Shaktism.

 

*** I would like to find translations so I can know what Susheela is

saying in "Half Shiva, Half Shakti." ... Can you possibly post the

lyrics? ***

 

Yes, this is a classical Carnatic song that's more than 200 years

old; it was composed by that very same Dikshitar I just mentioned.

The language is Sanskrit. The English translation is:

 

"Endless prayers flow to Ardhanareshwara

Half god, half goddess

The consort's delight

Accompanied by the wise

Adorned in splendour

For midnight rites

The one who is Shiva, giving refuge

Worshiped by Guruguha

Bejewelled, riding a bull

Half goddess, half god

Whose praise is sounded

In these six notes

By all the Agamas and Vedas

And whose body of shining red

Is venerated by the gods themeselves"

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

> (mukti). As the great Carnatic composer Dikshitar sang:

>

> "Bhukti mukti prada mArgam brUhi, mAyAdhInam dInam mAm pAhi" (Tell

me

> the path that gives bhukti and mukti; O fear-allaying Ambika -

> protect me, poor me, who am subjugated by Maya!)

>

 

Devi_bhakta,

 

I am somewhat surprised that Dikshitar being perhaps the most famous

Srividya upasaka, has not really found that much mention here at

Shakti sadhana:-(. And an even more famous statement to this effect

is by Adi Sankara in his SaundaryaLahiri where Shrimadacharya states

that only in the path of the Mother, can one have both bhoga and

moksha. But I feel that these statements are taken out of context coz

in most devotional works, one can always find similar statements.

Just because there are some renunciant Saivas does not mean that

Saivas are against wordly enjoyment(even a cursory glance at the

lives of the 64 Nayanar saints will show that lot of them were

householders). In fact the message of the great Saiva scripture, the

massive Skandapurana is that when God showers his grace, it will

result in both mukti and bhukti.

 

As far as yoga is concerned(I am referring to an earlier postof

yours), I feel that yoga is a much maligned and misunderstood

subject- being taken to extremes by two groups of people - physical

posturists who pose as yogis and monks; we have SriKrishna telling

Arjuna in the Geeta "skill in action is called yoga", so the true

yogi then strives for perfection whatever he is engaged in; actually

till a 100 years back the term yogi used to refer to a charlatan,

trickster who performs some minor siddhies obtained through pranayama

or hatha; only after the advent of the great Swami Sivananda did the

term yogi gain a semblance of respectability; also true that classic

yoga requires to some degree abrogation of sense pleasures, but this

is mainly towards having control over the sense organs; and control

of the senses is needed by anyone who is on the path to perfection;

even a shakta should have control over the senses. no??

 

warm regards

yogaman

[Guest guest]

Dear Yogaman:

 

*** I am somewhat surprised that Dikshitar, being perhaps the most

famous Srividya upasaka, has not really found that much mention here

at Shakti sadhana :-( ***

 

You are quite right, and I am uncomfortably aware of the omission!

I'm personally a rasika, and have occasionally brought up various

threads on Dikshitar and on Carnatic music in general -- but it tends

to be a real "niche" subject area that tends to extreme esoterism,

and people who aren't into the Carnatic scene can be left scratching

their heads.

 

If you look at the Shakti Sadhana homepage, you'll see many places

where I've indulged my passion by pointing to various compositions

and suggesting certain recordings for those who may be interested.

But I am very interested in the subject matter myself, and if you'd

like to quote Dikshitar or others (I think Sankara usually gets his

due here), PLEASE feel free. I, for one, am very interested, and I

suspect that I am not alone in that.

 

Thanks again for pointing out the ommission; and let's try to fill it!

 

*** Just because there are some renunciant Saivas does not mean that

Saivas are against wordly enjoyment ... In fact the message of the

great Saiva scripture, the massive Skandapurana is that when God

showers his grace, it will result in both mukti and bhukti. ***

 

I agree entirely; Shiva is referred to -- very accurately -- as "the

erotic ascetic." Although it may seem so at times, I am not a Shakta

elitist; it is my path, that is all. But when I speak of what

Shaktism "is" (as opposed to Shaivism, Vaishnavism etc.), I am

painting in broad strokes. There are, as you know, very nebulous

borders between the various -isms, and they very easily spill into

and blend with one another in various ways.

 

*** As far as yoga is concerned(I am referring to an earlier post of

yours), I feel that yoga is a much maligned and misunderstood

subject ... [it is] also true that classic yoga requires to some

degree abrogation of sense pleasures, but this is mainly towards

having control over the sense organs; and control of the senses is

needed by anyone who is on the path to perfection; even a shakta

should have control over the senses. no?? ***

 

Yes, most certainly. Discipline and self-control is essential, and

few practices cultivate it quite as intensely as yoga.

 

Thanks again for the post.

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

Devi Bhakta,

 

I just wanted to add that the gift of Mother Mantangini is extremely

evident in your very eloquent writing. I also hear that you are a

great painter (saw some of the great paintings you made of Maa

Matangini).

> Yes, most certainly. Discipline and self-control is essential, and

> few practices cultivate it quite as intensely as yoga.

 

Just wanted to add that as one advances, yoga and tantra are not

disparate; there is no yoga without tantra and vice versa.(reasons

for this opinion i will share another time and admittedly these are

the opinions of a pseudo-yogi at best :-))

 

warm regards

yogaman

>

> Thanks again for the post.

>

> Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

Hello Devi Bhakta: Thank you so much for the lyrics (and for your

appreciation of my post I did not know the history of the song,

and am happy to have learned it. I am pleased that Shakti and

Shiva are each referred to as divine, that is, Goddess and God,

in the song. I have wondered at the Ardhanarishwara as "The

God who is half woman" as far as why is it not simultaneously

"The Goddess who is half man" (which is why I sometimes write

kalipadma's suggested "Ardhanareshwari") as well as "The One

God/dess Who Is All." I also like those lyrics: "Bhukti mukti prada

mArgam brUhi" -- does that portion itself state: Tell me the path

that gives bhukti and mukti...? In a dictionary in one of Ammachi's

books, "Bhukti-Mukti-Pradayini" is defined as: "Giver of worldly

enjoyment and Liberation." Can you, or anyone else out there, in

your knowledgeability of Sanskrit, suggest how to say: "I honor

the path of worldly enjoyment and liberation," or "I am on the path

of worldly enjoyment and liberation"?

 

Regards,

Mary Ann

 

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> Hi Mary Ann;

>

> Thanks again for a great post. You noted:

>

> *** my feeling is that "transcendence" is not distinguishable

into

> two ideas, "ultimate realization of Godhead" as one, and

divinity

> embodied [as the other] ... it's not a "replacement," but the

same

> thing, or transcendence is contained within the union of those

> realms. ***

>

> I think you are quite right. I will defer to my more experienced

and

> knowledgeable co-moderator Kochu to elaborate, correct and

clarify as

> necessary -- but basically, the Shakta path is the only one that

> offers the devotee both earthly joy (bhukti) and supreme

liberation

> (mukti). As the great Carnatic composer Dikshitar sang:

>

> "Bhukti mukti prada mArgam brUhi, mAyAdhInam dInam mAm

pAhi" (Tell me

> the path that gives bhukti and mukti; O fear-allaying Ambika -

> protect me, poor me, who am subjugated by Maya!)

>

> You do not have to compartmentalize these ideas in Shaktism.

>

> *** I would like to find translations so I can know what

Susheela is

> saying in "Half Shiva, Half Shakti." ... Can you possibly post the

> lyrics? ***

>

> Yes, this is a classical Carnatic song that's more than 200

years

> old; it was composed by that very same Dikshitar I just

mentioned.

> The language is Sanskrit. The English translation is:

>

> "Endless prayers flow to Ardhanareshwara

> Half god, half goddess

> The consort's delight

> Accompanied by the wise

> Adorned in splendour

> For midnight rites

> The one who is Shiva, giving refuge

> Worshiped by Guruguha

> Bejewelled, riding a bull

> Half goddess, half god

> Whose praise is sounded

> In these six notes

> By all the Agamas and Vedas

> And whose body of shining red

> Is venerated by the gods themeselves"

>

> Aum Maatangyai Namahe