Indian caste system

[Guest guest]

Dear Sister Usha Devi: Perhaps the cast system, was not based on social

status by original intention, but on DNA programing and vibrations, by design of

the creators, for the purpose of creating a work force that was divided up into

different levels to perform various labor skills. Just another point of view.

What are your thoughts about this? With kind regards<Sir Patrick Ganesh

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

My dearest friends and Siblings,

 

I was discussing religion a few days ago with an American

woman. She was a very nice and friendly woman, but a Christian who

knew very little about Hinduism. When I told her that I was born in

India and raised as a Hindu, she expressed disapproval. I was puzzled

by this, so I asked her to explain. She said that she disapproves of

Hinduism because of the Indian caste system, preventing people from

changing their social status. I had to explain my beliefs to her on

this subject, and I feel that it might be useful to explain the same

to everyone on the list.

 

First, the caste system in India is a social custom, not a teaching

of the faith. Portions of the Indian subcontinent which have become

moslem or christian still follow much the same customs of social

stratification, even when they claim not to do so. India is not the

only place in which caste system has been a feature of life. In the

UK, people are divided into royalty, nobility, and commoners. The USA

and the USSR have always claimed to be classless societies, but in

both cases there has always been an enormous gap between rich and

poor. True, there are cases of immigrants coming to the USA with

nothing but a bar of soap and obtaining millions of dollars in a few

years, but these are the exceptions. The vast majority of Americans

live their entire lives in the same social stratum in which they were

born.

 

Further, you must please understand my own personal history. I

was born very poor in the slums of Calcutta. My mother was at the

very bottom of the social hierarchy, and I never knew my father. My

mother led a very difficult life, at times very painfully

frustrating. The only thing that kept her hope alive was her faith in

the Great Mother Kali. She prayed every morning and every evening,

and every other moment when she could. She worked hard all her life

trying to obtain a better life for her daughter (me) than what she

had for herself. I love her very intensely with all my heart for her

self-sacrificing efforts on my behalf. I hope and pray that she is

surrounded by love in whatever life her soul may now be undertaking.

 

I was of course rescued from that difficult life by a

handsome American who came to Calcutta wishing to study the Hindu

religion as it is practiced by the very poor. He brought me to live

in America, which is seemingly a different planet from the slums of

Calcutta. I have no regrets except that my mother never lived to come

with us and see the life of wealth that she could see only in her

dreams. My mother was an intelligent and passionate woman. She worked

very hard and was loving and honorable in all things. She deserved

better than what she had.

 

This having been said, do you really think that I would approve

of a caste system? A system in which the occupation of your parents

must always and irrevocably your occupation? Most certainly not. I

very strongly believe that every person should have the opportunity

to choose her/his work and her/his lifestyle. Each child should be

exposed to a number of different occupations and lifestyles, and

allowed to make an informed decision as to which s/he prefers. If a

child wants to be a painter, and has the natural talent nessecary to

be a painter, the fact that her/his parents are gardners should be

completely irrelevant. Each person should be respected and honored

for her/his own accomplishments and her/his own character, not those

of her/his family.

 

I also very strongly believe that poverty should not exist.

There is an enormous amount of wealth on this planet; indeed,

Americans have so much of it that waste it constantly, throwing

perfectly good things in the trash that could be used to improve the

lives of the poor. I am not advocating charity, giving away of wealth

to people who do nothing to earn it. I make exception of course in

the case of children, the elderly, and the disabled who are unable to

work. Society should take care of their needs and make them

comfortable.

 

Any able-bodied adult should contribute something to the society

by working at one job or another. My point is that many societies

create barriers preventing people making appropriate contributions.

This may be in the form of a formal caste system. It may be in the

form of denying education to the children of the poor. Either way,

the result is the same. The children of the rich are rich, while the

children of the poor are poor. This is in my opinion evil because it

rewards people based on the accomplishments of their parents rather

than on their own contributions.

 

Therefore, and let me make this unequivocally clear. Every

person is unique. Each person has a combination of skills and talents

which is different from each other person. Every person should have

an opportunity to use those skills and talents to contribute to

society, to help improve the lives of the entire community. Each

person should be rewarded and honored because of those contributions

that s/he has made, regardless of whatever contributions her/his

parents may have made.

 

Sister Usha Devi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/03 6:19:47 PM Central Daylight Time,

sisterusha writes:

 

> do not understand what you mean by "DNA programing and vibrations."

> Please enlighten me.

> My husband is an American anthropologist who has been studying

> Indian society and religion for many years. According to my husband,

> the caste system probably originated with the Aryan invasions 4000

> years ago. It began as the light-skinned Aryan peoples attempting to

> perpetuate their superior status over the darker-skinned people who

> were already in India.

> In this way it was very similar the so-called "Jim Crow" laws in

> the southern part of the USA in the early 20th century. These laws

> prohibited black Americans and white Americans from sitting in the

> same restaurants, attending the same schools, and even drinking from

> the same fountains.

> Thus the USA had two castes, black and white, with the white

> superior. India gradually developed a more complex system, but one

> that was originally rooted in race.

> This is according to my husband.

>

>

 

AMEN...and shaivism pre-dates Aryan hinduism--which is why I beleive in a

trinity of Shiva, Shakti, Kali--it is a perfect circle--interms of gender; in

terms of terms....

Meritt

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/03 7:11:45 PM Central Daylight Time,

childofdevi writes:

 

> There is no such thing as an Aryan-invasion theory. This theory came

> up because of misguided thinking by a decrepit mind like Max Muller [cut]

 

That is absolutely not true! But the real truth is...that people have been

anglosized in india TWICE..and now...they don't want the truthg to come out!

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/03 7:38:15 PM Central Daylight Time,

maryann writes:

> my gut feeling about this

> DNA and vibrational suggestion as a basis for the caste system

> was that it is an attempt to justify unfair treatment of people by

> looking to biology, nature, or God. It just has that special ring to

> it, like finding women inferior due to biology, which just happens

> to mirror what has been taught by many established religions. I

> also see this as similar to American scientists studying the size

> of black men's brains in comparison to white men's brains. What

> is the underlying motivation to such "science" is the question that

> comes to my mind in considering these things.

 

Exactly--the Aryans definitly oppressed the dravidians--it still prevails

today...once I found out that Lord krishna was a real warrior who supposedly

raped and pilliaged...I started doing a lot of research...and found many mnay

surprising things....ultimately...they led me to shiva....

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Maryann: What if our original purpose was to be slaves as miners and the

whole cast system was designed by ETs to support this activity by DNA. Could it

be that women as a whole were just created for a body and egg? With kind

regards<Sir Patrick Ganesh

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I do not understand what you mean by "DNA programing and vibrations."

Please enlighten me.

My husband is an American anthropologist who has been studying

Indian society and religion for many years. According to my husband,

the caste system probably originated with the Aryan invasions 4000

years ago. It began as the light-skinned Aryan peoples attempting to

perpetuate their superior status over the darker-skinned people who

were already in India.

In this way it was very similar the so-called "Jim Crow" laws in

the southern part of the USA in the early 20th century. These laws

prohibited black Americans and white Americans from sitting in the

same restaurants, attending the same schools, and even drinking from

the same fountains.

Thus the USA had two castes, black and white, with the white

superior. India gradually developed a more complex system, but one

that was originally rooted in race.

This is according to my husband.

 

Sister Usha Devi

[Guest guest]

Dear Sister Usha Devi,

 

There is no such thing as an Aryan-invasion theory. This theory came

up because of misguided thinking by a decrepit mind like Max Muller;

in later years Muller himself admitted that this was a mistake and

the primary reason why he concocted this theory was to explain

linguistic differences between different languagues, not as race

factor- this is referred to as Muller's "pater-mater" formula- a

theory that was completely ruled out by enlightened minds such as

Swami Vivekananda, Aurobindo and Mahaperiaval himself.

 

Muller also had a hidden agenda- he wanted to Christianize the whole

nation and so wanted to portray the whole of India's sacred scripture

as coming from dubious origins- this is also the reason why he

arbitrarily fixed the date of the A-I as around 1500 BC.

 

Bharatavarsha has been a flourishing society for at least 10,000

years. Prof Jha has infact decoded the Indus valley script and

confirmed that it was an early vedic script(devanagiri came much

later but the oral language was still existant then).

 

Some of the prominent historians in post-indepedent India such as

Romila Thapar, AL Basham etc have picked on this Aryan invasion

theory not on the basis of historical research but with vested

interests- they were communists and they are persistantly looking at

things with a view to frame events in a "class struggle". Today the

BJP goverment is doing some good work to undo this mis-representation.

 

It may also interest you that recently there was a study on the

origins of people in different parts of india, based on DNA mapping

and was proved that the whole of India(with the exception of some

aboriginal tribes) have a common origin and have been native to India

for a long time.(you can read about this at www.hinduismtoday.com, i

a few months back on the arhives)

 

Caste system was not a hereditory thing- there are plenty of

scriptural references to it being so. It is rather unfortunate that

over time things got stratified in this abominal manner.

 

warm regards

yogaman

 

, "Sister Usha Devi"

<sisterusha> wrote:

> I do not understand what you mean by "DNA programing and

vibrations."

> Please enlighten me.

[Guest guest]

Hello Sir Patrick Ganesh: Pardon my intrusion. I know the

question in this thread was directed at Sister Usha Devi, but I

had a strong reaction and wanted to share my thoughts and

invite your feedback At first glance, my gut feeling about this

DNA and vibrational suggestion as a basis for the caste system

was that it is an attempt to justify unfair treatment of people by

looking to biology, nature, or God. It just has that special ring to

it, like finding women inferior due to biology, which just happens

to mirror what has been taught by many established religions. I

also see this as similar to American scientists studying the size

of black men's brains in comparison to white men's brains. What

is the underlying motivation to such "science" is the question that

comes to my mind in considering these things.

 

Regards,

Mary Ann

 

, Ganeshspam@a...

wrote:

> Dear Sister Usha Devi: Perhaps the cast system, was not

based on social

> status by original intention, but on DNA programing and

vibrations, by design of

> the creators, for the purpose of creating a work force that was

divided up into

> different levels to perform various labor skills. Just another

point of view.

> What are your thoughts about this? With kind regards<Sir

Patrick Ganesh

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately it is not a phenomenon restrained to the USA or India. For

instance, we had until very recently apartheid in South Africa. Nor is

it limited to light skinned 'Aryan' races. We still have it today in

modern Israel between the Jews and the Palestinian Arabs. One could even

say that such 'caste system, is instituted in industrialized nations

where the wealth is disproportionately distributed among it's members. I

am sure you all know the argument so I won't rehash it here.

 

India's system is unique and decidedly more complex but, in my humble

opinion, still grounded in irrationality and ignorance. Such behaviors,

the world over, are one of many major stumbling blocks on the path of

our growth into bigger and better things as not only as individuals,

cultures but as a species, as well.

 

Again, just my two cents.

 

-Tom

 

"What can I hope when all is right?" - Voltaire

ICQ 175361876

 

 

Sister Usha Devi [sisterusha]

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 7:17 PM

Re: Fwd: Indian caste system

 

 

I do not understand what you mean by "DNA programing and vibrations."

Please enlighten me.

My husband is an American anthropologist who has been studying

Indian society and religion for many years. According to my husband,

the caste system probably originated with the Aryan invasions 4000

years ago. It began as the light-skinned Aryan peoples attempting to

perpetuate their superior status over the darker-skinned people who

were already in India.

In this way it was very similar the so-called "Jim Crow" laws in

the southern part of the USA in the early 20th century. These laws

prohibited black Americans and white Americans from sitting in the

same restaurants, attending the same schools, and even drinking from

the same fountains.

Thus the USA had two castes, black and white, with the white

superior. India gradually developed a more complex system, but one

that was originally rooted in race.

This is according to my husband.

 

Sister Usha Devi

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> That is absolutely not true! But the real truth is...that people

have been

> anglosized in india TWICE..and now...they don't want the truthg to

come out!

>

 

Sorry brother i have to disagree with you here. Are you telling me

that you are more knowledgeable than Swami Vivekananda, Aurobindo and

the late Sankaracharya of Kanchi. They were saints of the highest

calibre and they cannot just be wrong. On the other hand, scientific

theories are changing by the second. I would kindly request that you

take a look at the preface to the complete works of Max Muller

(actually this was an addendum that came later on that looked into

his motivation for fabricating this theory, if you are interested i

will search for this and let you know)

 

Not even once has Mother India been anglocized nor will she ever be;

on the contrary the Anglos are getting indianized LOL.

 

There are clearly people with vested interests clinging to such silly

theories like the AIT even in India

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/03 10:23:55 PM Central Daylight Time,

childofdevi writes:

> Sorry brother i have to disagree with you here. ... I would kindly request

> that you take a look at the preface to the complete works of Max Muller

> Not even once has Mother India been anglocized nor will she ever be;

> on the contrary the Anglos are getting indianized LOL.

 

I'm not a brother -- I'm female. I am very aware of Max Muller and his studies

and I beleive he is wrong. India has indeed been colonized twice -- the

Dravidians were colonized -- though this is denied because they are the original

dark people with origins in Africa so no one wants to acknowledge it -- it's

been proven SCIENTIFICALLY ... they were invaded ... yes by the Aryans ... but

the Aryans were not quite Max Muller's Aryans...then of course colonization by

the British was the Second colonization...which is why you now have so many

indians over here in the US who are brainwashed by anglo culture. I know too

many of them who have too many vested interests in finance and climbing the

upper echelons in society -- which is also something people in india are

obsessed by -- CLASS/Caste ... which was perpetuated by the British. The whole

point of being a shaivaite is to reach the purity that reaches beyond what is

now called hinduism--with the original trinity which is NOT Brahma Vishnu and

Shiva -- they diminished Shiva so that the Dravidians would be fazed out...the

original trinity is Shiva-Shakti-Kali which is perfect seeing as Shiva is both

man and woman and beyond gender, Kali is female, and she is his shakti ... ist

is a perfect trinity....unlike that of the Aryan which excludes the female from

the trinity. Tantra, Sri Lanka, Mohenja Darra, Harrappa, AND Africa are the

links ... NOT Max Mueller -- he had no clue as far as the truth is concerned.

 

M

[Guest guest]

It does appear that my mention of the Aryan invasion

has sparked some disagreement. I agree with Nora that

the subject is controversial and has the potential of

getting out of hand. I promise to be polite about

this, as Nora requested, and I hope that everyone else

will do the same.

It is certainly true that Max Mueller was a racist

trying to prove the superiority of the European

peoples. The writings of any person with such a biased

viewpoint should be viewed with suspicion. However,

the various people quoted in yesterday's postings as

having "disproved" the theory are equally suspect for

exactly the same reasons. They wish to prove the

superiority of the Indian peoples, and therefore seek

evidence to disprove the Aryan invasion theory. Their

writings are every bit as suspect as those of Dr.

Mueller, for exactly the same reasons.

Sometimes history is unpleasant. Somethings things

have happened that we disapprove of. But to deny them

is unwise. For example, the British conquered India

and ruled it for the 19th and the first half of the

20th Century. You may disapprove of this, but it is a

fact and you can do nothing to change it. It is silly

to try to deny this.

There is an expression here in the USA saying "A

stopped clock is right twice a day." This means that

even a person who is wrong most of the time may

occasionally be correct. Such is the case with Max

Mueller. According to my husband, and I repeat that my

husband is a professional academic who has studied the

subject for many years, using 21st century evidence

and methods rather than 19th century methods, there is

an enormous amount of evidence supporting this belief.

There is linguistic evidence; it is possible to take

the Latin and Sanskrit languages and make long lists

of words and structures that are very similar in both

languages. Archaeological evidence shows that a

warlike people originated in the region of what is now

southern Russia, with fractions of these people

migrating in both directions, conquering Europe,

Persia, and India. There is today in India a great

variety in skin color, suggesting a mixing of peoples

at some time in the past. Certain pieces of Vedic

mythology have similarities with early Greek and

German and Slavic myths. Etc.

Yes, white people from central Asia did move into

India thousands of years ago. There should not be a

source of shame or discomfort, something that we need

to try to disprove in order to salvage our pride as

Indians. Quite the contrary, it should be a source of

pride. We over the centuries have mixed together the

wisdom of several different races, and have selected

the best of the best. We are wise and noble and strong

not despite this admixture of peoples and ideas but

because of it.

 

Sister Usha Devi

 

 

=====

Sister Usha Devi

Founder, Divinely Female and worshipper of the Sacred Flame that shines inside

every woman

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

the Aryan invasion theory has been DIS-proved.... there is NO archeological

evidence for it... it was something thought up to prove how much better western

civilization was over the native.... very similar to the moundbuilders not being

native, but really some lost european civilization, or a lost tribe of israel...

back in the nineteenth century , only whites could do great things... what a

first-time post to make!!!

 

TTIREM3 wrote:

[Guest guest]

>...There is linguistic evidence; it is possible to take

>the Latin and Sanskrit languages and make long lists

>of words and structures that are very similar in both

>languages.

 

Not quite that narrow. The fact that *all* the languages

appear to come from the same "root" seems fairly obvious

to anybody who studied them seriously. However what does

that mean?

>Archaeological evidence shows that a warlike people

>originated in the region of what is now southern Russia,

 

That would be Ukraine? Caucausus? Central Asia republics?

>with fractions of these people migrating in both directions,

>conquering Europe, Persia, and India.

 

And what historic time are we talkig about, roughly?

>There is today in India a great variety in skin color,

>suggesting a mixing of peoples at some time in the past.

 

Plausible. India seems to comprise of different "subnations"

(if I may way so) - with their own cultures, languages, etc.

With a unifying tradition on top of that.

>Certain pieces of Vedic mythology have similarities with early

>Greek and German and Slavic myths.

 

And Jewish myth, and Persian myths, and Australian aborigenes' myths...

Again, this argument, while true, is way too broad to be useful.

There are similarities in practically ALL the Scriptures (which

again is obvious to anybody involved). This proves nothing

beyond the fact that the Knowledge came from one Source.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Not quite that narrow. The fact that *all* the languages

> appear to come from the same "root" seems fairly obvious

> to anybody who studied them seriously. However what does

> that mean?

 

Some languages are more closely related than others. French and

Spanish are very closely related, with a very long list of

similarties, indicating a relatively recent common ancestor (Latin).

Swahili and Navajo are very distant from each other, so much so that

very few similarities can be found, and any common ancestor is lost

in very distant prehistory. Latin and Sanskrit are close, with many

similarities, indicating a common language ancestor in the not too

distant past, perhaps 5000 years ago.

> >Archaeological evidence shows that a warlike people

> >originated in the region of what is now southern Russia,

>

> That would be Ukraine? Caucausus? Central Asia republics?

 

Southern Russia, as I said. This is north of the Caucasus, west of

Kazakhstan, east of the Ukraine.

> >with fractions of these people migrating in both directions,

> >conquering Europe, Persia, and India.

>

> And what historic time are we talkig about, roughly?

 

Approximately 3500-4000 years ago.

> >Certain pieces of Vedic mythology have similarities with early

> >Greek and German and Slavic myths.

>

> And Jewish myth, and Persian myths, and Australian aborigenes'

myths...

> Again, this argument, while true, is way too broad to be useful.

 

Again, the question is one of degree of similarity. The Vedic,

Persian, German, Greek, and Slavic myths have much closer

similarities to each other than any one of them does to Australian or

Japanese or Native American myths.

> There are similarities in practically ALL the Scriptures (which

> again is obvious to anybody involved). This proves nothing

> beyond the fact that the Knowledge came from one Source.

 

It proves nothing because I have not provided all the details, nor do

I have the time to do so.

 

Sister Usha Devi