Aryan migrations

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/24/03 6:28:40 AM Central Daylight Time,

sisterusha writes:

 

> >Personally I think modern people have been a little

> >arrogant looking back at the ancients, considering

> >them unsophisticated because they could not build

> >

 

Actually, it is often said that the ancients DID have the same

technology...and that's how we have our today...based on their models...

M

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>Personally I think modern people have been a little

>arrogant looking back at the ancients, considering

>them unsophisticated because they could not build

>WMDs and Stealth bombers and the like.

 

This is almost certainly true about common people, but

not among professional anthropologists such as my

husband.

>Could it be that we white folks, who have done a

>pretty good job of invading the whole world, imagine

>invasions everywhere?

 

I shall make three points. First, the term "invasion"

in this discussion may perhaps be misleading. We think

of invasions in terms of one nation conquering

another, in the manner that Nazi Germany invaded

Poland in 1939. With respect to something that

happened 4000 years ago, in a region in which there

were no written records, it is difficult if not

impossible to determine exact events with any

certainty. Nearly all anthropologists outside India

agree that peoples from Central Asia entered India

about that time. Whether they came as conquerors or

refugees or simply as migrants who liked spicy food

and wished to move to a place where it is made, is

difficult to determine.

Second, people here seem to be ignoring half of

the theory. This is not a case of Europeans conquering

India 4000 years ago. Nobody is suggesting this. The

theory is that peoples from southern Russia and the

Ukraine moved in three directions: west into Europe,

south into Persia, and southeast into India. It

escapes me how Indians can conclude that this places

India in some sort of inferior position compared to

Europeans. It does not, not at all.

Third, my husband is a social scientist. He has

taught me not only much factual information about

Indian culture and history but also the proper way to

do science. One must avoid inductive reasonsing. This

is when people start with a conclusion and look for

evidence to support it. This is bad because people

inevitably overlook information that disagrees with

them.

I have seen this here in the USA. There is a

small group of Christians called "Scientific

Creationists." They believe that the creation story in

the Bible is quite literally correct. The story says

that God created the world in a period of six days

time, about 6000 years ago. These Creationists look

for evidence to support this, and ignore or explain

away any information that does not support it. They

believe that they have proved that the Bible story is

true. They are wrong; several books have been

published explaining why their reasoning and indeed

their entire approach is wrong. The proper method is

deductive reasoning, gathering the evidence first,

then looking for an explanation.

I maintain that the people who believe the Aryan

invasion theory to be false are doing exactly the same

as these Creationists. They dislike the Aryan invasion

theory because they believe that it places the Indian

people in an inferior light. They therefore look for

evidence to support their own position, ignoring any

evidence to the contrary.

I repeat that I diagree with the veiwpoint that the

theory portrays Indians in some sort of inferior

light. This is nonsense. We Indians are a proud and

wise people, deservingly so. Where our ancestors came

from is completely irrelevant.

 

Sister Usha Devi

 

=====

Sister Usha Devi

Founder, Divinely Female and worshipper of the Sacred Flame that shines inside

every woman

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Sister Usha Devi- Mea culpa. It's only speculation on my part. Has your

husband-or anyone else on this list-investigated the apparent Hindu-Central

American connection I mentioned? Apparently the Aztec(?) Toltec(?) goddess

Coatlique, whose name I am probably murdering, bears a distinct resemblance to

Kali, with tongue, garland of heads etc. It is apparenly this goddess who has

become in the Christian world, Our Lady of Guadelupe. Someone recently showed me

a picture of a Central American monkey god, instantly recognizable to any Hindu

as Hanuman when he is portrayed kneeling before Lord Rama. And here in LA,

Ganesha is very popular with folks from Central America who recognize the

elephant-headed god as the remover of bad influences. How do I find out more?

Jai Ma, Gitaprana

-

Sister Usha Devi

Thursday, July 24, 2003 4:27 AM

Re: Aryan migrations

 

>Personally I think modern people have been a little

>arrogant looking back at the ancients, considering

>them unsophisticated because they could not build

>WMDs and Stealth bombers and the like.

 

This is almost certainly true about common people, but

not among professional anthropologists such as my

husband.

>Could it be that we white folks, who have done a

>pretty good job of invading the whole world, imagine

>invasions everywhere?

 

I shall make three points. First, the term "invasion"

in this discussion may perhaps be misleading. We think

of invasions in terms of one nation conquering

another, in the manner that Nazi Germany invaded

Poland in 1939. With respect to something that

happened 4000 years ago, in a region in which there

were no written records, it is difficult if not

impossible to determine exact events with any

certainty. Nearly all anthropologists outside India

agree that peoples from Central Asia entered India

about that time. Whether they came as conquerors or

refugees or simply as migrants who liked spicy food

and wished to move to a place where it is made, is

difficult to determine.

Second, people here seem to be ignoring half of

the theory. This is not a case of Europeans conquering

India 4000 years ago. Nobody is suggesting this. The

theory is that peoples from southern Russia and the

Ukraine moved in three directions: west into Europe,

south into Persia, and southeast into India. It

escapes me how Indians can conclude that this places

India in some sort of inferior position compared to

Europeans. It does not, not at all.

Third, my husband is a social scientist. He has

taught me not only much factual information about

Indian culture and history but also the proper way to

do science. One must avoid inductive reasonsing. This

is when people start with a conclusion and look for

evidence to support it. This is bad because people

inevitably overlook information that disagrees with

them.

I have seen this here in the USA. There is a

small group of Christians called "Scientific

Creationists." They believe that the creation story in

the Bible is quite literally correct. The story says

that God created the world in a period of six days

time, about 6000 years ago. These Creationists look

for evidence to support this, and ignore or explain

away any information that does not support it. They

believe that they have proved that the Bible story is

true. They are wrong; several books have been

published explaining why their reasoning and indeed

their entire approach is wrong. The proper method is

deductive reasoning, gathering the evidence first,

then looking for an explanation.

I maintain that the people who believe the Aryan

invasion theory to be false are doing exactly the same

as these Creationists. They dislike the Aryan invasion

theory because they believe that it places the Indian

people in an inferior light. They therefore look for

evidence to support their own position, ignoring any

evidence to the contrary.

I repeat that I diagree with the veiwpoint that the

theory portrays Indians in some sort of inferior

light. This is nonsense. We Indians are a proud and

wise people, deservingly so. Where our ancestors came

from is completely irrelevant.

 

Sister Usha Devi

 

=====

Sister Usha Devi

Founder, Divinely Female and worshipper of the Sacred Flame that shines inside

every woman

 

 

Sponsor

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

My dear friend Gitaprana (and I hope I may regard you as such),

I have read much about Coatlicue, who is worshipped today by many

people here in the USA also. Most use her Christian name, Virgin of

Guadalupe, but some use her ancient Aztec name. In Mexico, her

portrait is as common as dahl in India: everywhere you look.

From an anthropological viewpoint, similarities between her and

Kali are probably a case of convergence, peoples arriving

independently at similar beliefs without communicating with each

other. Thus proves the universality of the Divine, people in

different parts of the world developing similar customs not because

of common cultural ancestry but rather because of common spirituality

among all peoples.

 

Sister Usha Devi

[Guest guest]

THE VEDIC TRADITION

Bhattaacharji, Sukumari, The Indian Theogony, Cambrisge University,

Cambridge, 1970.

 

A study of the pattern of Indian Gods as they move and evolve from the

civilizations of the pre-Aryans and Aryans through the late Puranic period.

 

· Berriedale, Keith A. The Religion and Philosophy of the Veda and Upanisads,

Harvard University Press, Cambridge, 1925.

 

A fairly old, yet still useful text from one of the great scholars of the

past. The text is primarily a survey of Gods, rituals, philosophical concepts.

It

moves from the early Vedas through the Upanisads.

 

· Bloomfield, Maurice, The Religion of the Veda, Putnam, New York, 1908.

 

This text is primarily drawn from six lectures which were given in 1906-1907.

The book, while extremely old has dominated academic thought on the Vedas

since the time of Bloomfield, Keith and MacDonell. This text seems an essential

for any student beginning serious study of the Vedas.

 

· ----- Trans. Hymns of the Atharva-Veda, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi 1973.

 

This text is a translation of about one-third of the full text. The

translations seem good and are readable. The text contains a brief introduction

as well

as notes.

 

· Burrow, T. "The Early Aryans," in A Cultural History of India, Ed. A.L.

Basham, Claredon Press, Oxford, p. 20-29, Ch. 3, 1975.

 

A fairly clear survey of the theory of Aryan migration from the Central

Steppes of Asia to India. There is discussion of the conflict with Indus culture

and the transition from Vedic to later Hindu traditions.

 

· Eggeling, Julius, Trans. The Satapatha-Brahmana according to theText of the

Madhyandina, 5 Volumes Sacred Books of the East Vol. 12,26,41,43,43 Ed. Max

Mueller, Oxford University press, Oxford, 1900. (Reprinted, Motilal

Banarsidass, Delhi 1963,1966,1973.)

 

This text is the largest and richest of the Brahmanas. The introductions

provided to the translations are useful and essential for an intelligent reading

of these texts.

 

· Keith, Arthur Berriedale, Trans., The Veda of the Black Yajus School

entitled the Taittiriya, 2 Volumes, Harvard Oriental Series, Vol. 18-19, Harvard

University Press, Cambridge 1914.

 

Keith has an extensive introduction to the text and discusses its

relationships to other texts and to rituals, as well as its language and style

and

approximate date. The text itself deals is divided into seven parts and deals

with

many issues including the full and new moon sacrifice, the rekindling of the

fire, as well as mantras for the horse sacrifice, and much more. An old yet

readable translation. Note: many of these translations are very old, yet the age

of full text translation seems to have past and so many of the full text

translations we have were translated about the turn of the century or before.

 

· Macdonell, A.A., The Vedic Mythology, Indological Book House, Varanasi,

1963.

 

This text, from another great scholar of the past, presents a detailed survey

of the Vedic Mythology that is organized in terms of the various Vedic Gods.

 

· -----Hymns from the Rid Veda, Associations Press. London, 1922.

 

This text, comprised of forty hymns provides an excellent introduction to the

contents of the Rig Veda. The author provides us with a useful introduction

and also a brief illustration of each of the deities being invoked by each of

the Hymns.

 

· Miller, Jeanine, The Vision of Cosmic Order in the Vedas, Routledge and

Kegan Paul, London, 1985.

 

An interesting overview of the authors understanding of the Vedic sages

vision of cosmic order. She focuses upon three primary issues. The first one is

the

"law" as it manifests itself in the universe and therefore in nature.

Secondly, she discusses the idea of truth at the human level being equal to

Truth at

the universal level. Lastly, Miller looks at sacrifice and its role in

constituting social order.

 

· Muller, Max Ed. The Sacred Books of the East, 50 Volumes, the Claredon

Press, Oxford, 1879-1910.

 

This collection of works is the product of the classical Indological

enterprise. It is a set of invaluable translations compiled by numerous

translators

and laboriously edited by the monumental Max Muller. In this series, many Vedic

Hymns, Upanisads and Law books are translated.

 

· Oldenburg, Hermann, The Religion of the Veda, trans. Shridham B. Shrotril,

Motilal Banarsidass, Varanasi, 1988.

 

A classical introduction to the religion of the Vedas which has just recently

been translated into English. Somewhat encyclopedic in form, Oldenburg

present us with a useful introduction which describes the Vedic gods, deals with

sacrifice, and what he calls Animism. The text itself seems to be framed largely

in terms of western theological categories.

 

· Pateria, A.K., Modern Commentators on the Veda, B.R. Publishing Company,

Delhi, 1985.

 

This text is primarily a survey of the theories and interpretations of three

significant Vedic scholars. The text includes discussion of Max Mueller, Swami

Dayananda and Aurobindo. As such, it is an interesting fusion of western and

Indian scholarship.

 

· Patton, Laurie, Ed. Authority, Anxiety and Canon: Essays in Vedic

Interpretation, SUNY, Albany, 1994.

 

A collection of essays by various scholars throughout the field. They are

linked primarily by the fact that each chapter addresses the theoretical

questions of canonicity and the historical continuation, appropriation or

rejection of

Vedic authority. The text includes significant contributions by notable

scholars such as Brian Smith and Barbara Holdrege.

 

· Sen, Umapada, The Rig Vedic Era, Firma K.L., Calcutta, 1974.

 

The main thesis of this work seems to be that Vedic civilization had priority

over the Indus Valley Civilizations in ancient times. Sen argues that Vedic

civilization dates back beyond 3000 BC. The text is an interesting criticism of

Western scholarship.

 

· Van Buitenen, J.A.B. "Vedic and Upanisadic Bases of Indian Civilization,"

in Chapters in Indian Civilizations, Ed. Joseph Elder, Kendall/Hunt Publishing

Company, Iowa, p.3-38, 1970.

 

A short introduction to Vedic literature, ritual, sacrifice, and the role of

other religious concepts upon Indian civilizations.

 

· Whitney Williams Dwight Trans. Atharva-Veda -Samhita, 2 Volumes, Motilal

Banarsidass, Delhi, 1962.

 

This work is a full translation of the text, yet is somewhat dated and the

translations are taken too literally. The effect of this is to make the

translation virtually unintelligible. The notes included may help the adept

scholar.