Guest guest Posted November 1, 2003 Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 93 What U say is against historical facts, it is obvious if U take care to study the matter in detail. Government of Israel can do sm mistakes, they are mere ppl, but in general their politics is in perfect accordance with Dharma. Muslims are trying to change facts and lead other countries into delusion. In fact, it is they who want war and want to completely destroy Israel. That was their task in 6 days war. Thatnx to Blessed Lord, He protected His Land... The doctrine of named Rebbe is ok, simply U lack understanding of it.. .. Love is the law, love under will. A. , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > OM Eric Otto > > The rabbi has a self-serving doctrine and therefore as the doctrine > is contaminated with ego it is false. Not only is it false but the > current Israeli government is using that same doctrine to kill those > who it labels "terrorist" and well as any others unfortunate enough > to be in the immediate vicinity of the missiles. Of course, the > Israeli government is the original terrorist in that it invades the > lands of another people, kills and deports hundreds of thousands of > them and usurps the land and resources to its own use. The invaded > people who fight against this terror are not terrorists themselves > but freedom fighters. > > With regard to your question about the virtuousness of killing Hitler > given foreknowledge of the events that he set in motion,it seems to > me that only more karma would have been created and none overcome. > Those who were fated to suffer and be killed under Hitler would only > have met their same karma under other circumstances. Nothing would > have been avoided. But now the killer of Hitler incurs karma upon > himself. Group karma occurs for a reason. If not under Hitler, then > under someone or something else. > > Attachment to life is one of the five kleshas that keep one bound to > wheel of samsara, reincarnating until the lessons that lead to moksha > are learned. > > Killing to prevent the person killed from killing assumes that > corporeal existence is real and significant and a valued goal. But > the purpose of all spiritual activity is to transcend space and time, > to be One without an other. The physical body only provides a vehicle > to work out one's karma. When moksha is attained the body is no > longer needed. Action taken to preserve a body or life solely > for the sake of preserving it is erroneous. Action taken to preserve > a body by destroying another body is erroneous. > > OM Namah Sivaya > > Omprem > > , "Eric Otto" <mkultra@f...> > wrote: > > > > > Sin for the sake of sin is a sin, sin for the sake of God is > > holyness. > > > [reb Yaakov Leib hakKohein] > > > > > > A kind of pedestrian view here, but is this kind of a thing that if > > say you had the fore knowledge to have killed Hitler or Stalin > before > > they did as much as they did, then would that act have been a good > or > > bad thing? Secondly, would that have eliminated a lot of ones own > > karma or created more? > > > > Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2003 Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 Om Arjuna Before WW2 even ended, European Jews were heading to Palestine and displacing Palestinians from their lands. After WW2, that trickle of European Jews turned into a torrent. It is well documented that the newly arrived Jews killed tens of thousands and deported hundreds of thousands of indigenous Palestinians. That is why the current Israeli government will not grant a right of return to all those exiles. There are too many of them and Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state. It would instead be a multi-cultural state. I personally know Palestinians who as children were taken out of their homes at night and put on a boat by a Jewish paramilitary group and exiled. The early Jewish killers even murdered British soliers held hostage and UN officials. The village of Deir Yassan is a good case in point. This Palestinian village had a made a non-aggression pact with the neighbouring Jewish settlements but because it was situated on high ground, it was invaded by the Jewish paramilitary group called the Stern Gang. Almost 300 defenseless Palestinian men, women and children were murdered. That expansion of Jewish settlements continues to this day. So if the Palestinians have to use unconventional methods of combatting a usurper that is well-armed by the U.S, then it seems justifiable to me. Karma continues regards of the political spin given to one's actions. OM Namah Sivaya Omprem , "Arjuna Taradasa" <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > 93 > What U say is against historical facts, it is obvious if U take care > to study the matter in detail. > Government of Israel can do sm mistakes, they are mere ppl, but in > general their politics is in perfect accordance with Dharma. > Muslims are trying to change facts and lead other countries into > delusion. In fact, it is they who want war and want to completely > destroy Israel. That was their task in 6 days war. Thatnx to Blessed > Lord, He protected His Land... > > The doctrine of named Rebbe is ok, simply U lack understanding of it.. > . > > Love is the law, love under will. > > A. > > > , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > > OM Eric Otto > > > > The rabbi has a self-serving doctrine and therefore as the doctrine > > is contaminated with ego it is false. Not only is it false but the > > current Israeli government is using that same doctrine to kill those > > who it labels "terrorist" and well as any others unfortunate enough > > to be in the immediate vicinity of the missiles. Of course, the > > Israeli government is the original terrorist in that it invades the > > lands of another people, kills and deports hundreds of thousands of > > them and usurps the land and resources to its own use. The invaded > > people who fight against this terror are not terrorists themselves > > but freedom fighters. > > > > With regard to your question about the virtuousness of killing > Hitler > > given foreknowledge of the events that he set in motion,it seems to > > me that only more karma would have been created and none overcome. > > Those who were fated to suffer and be killed under Hitler would only > > have met their same karma under other circumstances. Nothing would > > have been avoided. But now the killer of Hitler incurs karma upon > > himself. Group karma occurs for a reason. If not under Hitler, then > > under someone or something else. > > > > Attachment to life is one of the five kleshas that keep one bound to > > wheel of samsara, reincarnating until the lessons that lead to > moksha > > are learned. > > > > Killing to prevent the person killed from killing assumes that > > corporeal existence is real and significant and a valued goal. But > > the purpose of all spiritual activity is to transcend space and > time, > > to be One without an other. The physical body only provides a > vehicle > > to work out one's karma. When moksha is attained the body is no > > longer needed. Action taken to preserve a body or life solely > > for the sake of preserving it is erroneous. Action taken to preserve > > a body by destroying another body is erroneous. > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > Omprem > > > > , "Eric Otto" <mkultra@f...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > Sin for the sake of sin is a sin, sin for the sake of God is > > > holyness. > > > > [reb Yaakov Leib hakKohein] > > > > > > > > > A kind of pedestrian view here, but is this kind of a thing that > if > > > say you had the fore knowledge to have killed Hitler or Stalin > > before > > > they did as much as they did, then would that act have been a good > > or > > > bad thing? Secondly, would that have eliminated a lot of ones own > > > karma or created more? > > > > > > Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 I was not born a Hindu. What attracted me to Hinduism was its tradition of ecumenicism and pacifism. The beauty of the art and culture didn't hurt, either! I don't know that Shakti Sadhana List is the place to be ranting about who should be killing whom in Palestine. We are all children of the Devi, and I pray every day that all people treat each other and our beautiful planet with reverence and respect. -- Len/ Kalipadma <lokaha samastaha sukino bhavantu> On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:07:59 -0000 "omprem" <omprem writes: > Om Arjuna > > Before WW2 even ended, European Jews were heading to Palestine and > displacing Palestinians from their lands. After WW2, that trickle of > > European Jews turned into a torrent. > > It is well documented that the newly arrived Jews killed tens of > thousands and deported hundreds of thousands of indigenous > Palestinians. That is why the current Israeli government will not > grant a right of return to all those exiles. There are too many of > them and Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state. It would > instead be a multi-cultural state. I personally know Palestinians > who > as children were taken out of their homes at night and put on a boat > > by a Jewish paramilitary group and exiled. > > The early Jewish killers even murdered British soliers held hostage > and UN officials. > > The village of Deir Yassan is a good case in point. This Palestinian > > village had a made a non-aggression pact with the neighbouring > Jewish > settlements but because it was situated on high ground, it was > invaded by the Jewish paramilitary group called the Stern Gang. > Almost 300 defenseless Palestinian men, women and children were > murdered. That expansion of Jewish settlements continues to this > day. > > So if the Palestinians have to use unconventional methods of > combatting a usurper that is well-armed by the U.S, then it seems > justifiable to me. Karma continues regards of the political spin > given to one's actions. > > OM Namah Sivaya > > Omprem > > > , "Arjuna Taradasa" > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > > > 93 > > What U say is against historical facts, it is obvious if U take > care > > to study the matter in detail. > > Government of Israel can do sm mistakes, they are mere ppl, but in > > > general their politics is in perfect accordance with Dharma. > > Muslims are trying to change facts and lead other countries into > > delusion. In fact, it is they who want war and want to completely > > destroy Israel. That was their task in 6 days war. Thatnx to > Blessed > > Lord, He protected His Land... > > > > The doctrine of named Rebbe is ok, simply U lack understanding of > it.. > > . > > > > Love is the law, love under will. > > > > A. > > > > > > , "omprem" <omprem> > wrote: > > > OM Eric Otto > > > > > > The rabbi has a self-serving doctrine and therefore as the > doctrine > > > is contaminated with ego it is false. Not only is it false but > the > > > current Israeli government is using that same doctrine to kill > those > > > who it labels "terrorist" and well as any others unfortunate > enough > > > to be in the immediate vicinity of the missiles. Of course, the > > > Israeli government is the original terrorist in that it invades > the > > > lands of another people, kills and deports hundreds of thousands > > of > > > them and usurps the land and resources to its own use. The > invaded > > > people who fight against this terror are not terrorists > themselves > > > but freedom fighters. > > > > > > With regard to your question about the virtuousness of killing > > Hitler > > > given foreknowledge of the events that he set in motion,it seems > > to > > > me that only more karma would have been created and none > overcome. > > > Those who were fated to suffer and be killed under Hitler would > only > > > have met their same karma under other circumstances. Nothing > would > > > have been avoided. But now the killer of Hitler incurs karma > upon > > > himself. Group karma occurs for a reason. If not under Hitler, > then > > > under someone or something else. > > > > > > Attachment to life is one of the five kleshas that keep one > bound > to > > > wheel of samsara, reincarnating until the lessons that lead to > > moksha > > > are learned. > > > > > > Killing to prevent the person killed from killing assumes that > > > corporeal existence is real and significant and a valued goal. > But > > > the purpose of all spiritual activity is to transcend space and > > time, > > > to be One without an other. The physical body only provides a > > vehicle > > > to work out one's karma. When moksha is attained the body is no > > > longer needed. Action taken to preserve a body or life solely > > > for the sake of preserving it is erroneous. Action taken to > preserve > > > a body by destroying another body is erroneous. > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > , "Eric Otto" > <mkultra@f...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sin for the sake of sin is a sin, sin for the sake of God is > > > > > holyness. > > > > > [reb Yaakov Leib hakKohein] > > > > > > > > > > > > A kind of pedestrian view here, but is this kind of a thing > that > > if > > > > say you had the fore knowledge to have killed Hitler or Stalin > > > > before > > > > they did as much as they did, then would that act have been a > good > > > or > > > > bad thing? Secondly, would that have eliminated a lot of ones > > own > > > > karma or created more? > > > > > > > > Eric > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > ______________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 93 jaya Kali i'm not a historian so i don't know all the facts however i know sm... for example, the head mullah of Jerusalem met with Hitler in the beggining of WW2 and supported idea of killing all jews not less jews were thrown out of arab countries without any compensation for the losses, so it can be considered an equal exchange. muslims just pretend to forget these things... muslim terrorism is a fact, that terrorist-ppl are responsible for the contra-actions of Israel's government aim of politial islam is not \freedom\, but destruction of Israel. muslims do not want peace, they want jichad, war... not only they are so cruel to jewish ppl, muslims tortured, wraped and killed many christians in Libia Y.Arafat supported several terrorist organisations... According to Bible, enemies of Israel are enemies of God, Blessed be He. A. , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > Om Arjuna > > Before WW2 even ended, European Jews were heading to Palestine and > displacing Palestinians from their lands. After WW2, that trickle of > European Jews turned into a torrent. > > It is well documented that the newly arrived Jews killed tens of > thousands and deported hundreds of thousands of indigenous > Palestinians. That is why the current Israeli government will not > grant a right of return to all those exiles. There are too many of > them and Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state. It would > instead be a multi-cultural state. I personally know Palestinians who > as children were taken out of their homes at night and put on a boat > by a Jewish paramilitary group and exiled. > > The early Jewish killers even murdered British soliers held hostage > and UN officials. > > The village of Deir Yassan is a good case in point. This Palestinian > village had a made a non-aggression pact with the neighbouring Jewish > settlements but because it was situated on high ground, it was > invaded by the Jewish paramilitary group called the Stern Gang. > Almost 300 defenseless Palestinian men, women and children were > murdered. That expansion of Jewish settlements continues to this day. > > So if the Palestinians have to use unconventional methods of > combatting a usurper that is well-armed by the U.S, then it seems > justifiable to me. Karma continues regards of the political spin > given to one's actions. > > OM Namah Sivaya > > Omprem > > > , "Arjuna Taradasa" > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > > > 93 > > What U say is against historical facts, it is obvious if U take > care > > to study the matter in detail. > > Government of Israel can do sm mistakes, they are mere ppl, but in > > general their politics is in perfect accordance with Dharma. > > Muslims are trying to change facts and lead other countries into > > delusion. In fact, it is they who want war and want to completely > > destroy Israel. That was their task in 6 days war. Thatnx to > Blessed > > Lord, He protected His Land... > > > > The doctrine of named Rebbe is ok, simply U lack understanding of > it.. > > . > > > > Love is the law, love under will. > > > > A. > > > > > > , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > > > OM Eric Otto > > > > > > The rabbi has a self-serving doctrine and therefore as the > doctrine > > > is contaminated with ego it is false. Not only is it false but > the > > > current Israeli government is using that same doctrine to kill > those > > > who it labels "terrorist" and well as any others unfortunate > enough > > > to be in the immediate vicinity of the missiles. Of course, the > > > Israeli government is the original terrorist in that it invades > the > > > lands of another people, kills and deports hundreds of thousands > of > > > them and usurps the land and resources to its own use. The > invaded > > > people who fight against this terror are not terrorists > themselves > > > but freedom fighters. > > > > > > With regard to your question about the virtuousness of killing > > Hitler > > > given foreknowledge of the events that he set in motion,it seems > to > > > me that only more karma would have been created and none > overcome. > > > Those who were fated to suffer and be killed under Hitler would > only > > > have met their same karma under other circumstances. Nothing > would > > > have been avoided. But now the killer of Hitler incurs karma upon > > > himself. Group karma occurs for a reason. If not under Hitler, > then > > > under someone or something else. > > > > > > Attachment to life is one of the five kleshas that keep one bound > to > > > wheel of samsara, reincarnating until the lessons that lead to > > moksha > > > are learned. > > > > > > Killing to prevent the person killed from killing assumes that > > > corporeal existence is real and significant and a valued goal. > But > > > the purpose of all spiritual activity is to transcend space and > > time, > > > to be One without an other. The physical body only provides a > > vehicle > > > to work out one's karma. When moksha is attained the body is no > > > longer needed. Action taken to preserve a body or life solely > > > for the sake of preserving it is erroneous. Action taken to > preserve > > > a body by destroying another body is erroneous. > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > , "Eric Otto" <mkultra@f... > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sin for the sake of sin is a sin, sin for the sake of God is > > > > holyness. > > > > > [reb Yaakov Leib hakKohein] > > > > > > > > > > > > A kind of pedestrian view here, but is this kind of a thing > that > > if > > > > say you had the fore knowledge to have killed Hitler or Stalin > > > before > > > > they did as much as they did, then would that act have been a > good > > > or > > > > bad thing? Secondly, would that have eliminated a lot of ones > own > > > > karma or created more? > > > > > > > > Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 For the true story of Islam please see http://fam.showsit.info/ - Arjuna Taradasa Sunday, November 02, 2003 10:22 AM Re: Israel - to OMPrem 93 jaya Kali i'm not a historian so i don't know all the facts however i know sm... for example, the head mullah of Jerusalem met with Hitler in the beggining of WW2 and supported idea of killing all jews not less jews were thrown out of arab countries without any compensation for the losses, so it can be considered an equal exchange. muslims just pretend to forget these things... muslim terrorism is a fact, that terrorist-ppl are responsible for the contra-actions of Israel's government aim of politial islam is not \freedom\, but destruction of Israel. muslims do not want peace, they want jichad, war... not only they are so cruel to jewish ppl, muslims tortured, wraped and killed many christians in Libia Y.Arafat supported several terrorist organisations... According to Bible, enemies of Israel are enemies of God, Blessed be He. A. , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > Om Arjuna > > Before WW2 even ended, European Jews were heading to Palestine and > displacing Palestinians from their lands. After WW2, that trickle of > European Jews turned into a torrent. > > It is well documented that the newly arrived Jews killed tens of > thousands and deported hundreds of thousands of indigenous > Palestinians. That is why the current Israeli government will not > grant a right of return to all those exiles. There are too many of > them and Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state. It would > instead be a multi-cultural state. I personally know Palestinians who > as children were taken out of their homes at night and put on a boat > by a Jewish paramilitary group and exiled. > > The early Jewish killers even murdered British soliers held hostage > and UN officials. > > The village of Deir Yassan is a good case in point. This Palestinian > village had a made a non-aggression pact with the neighbouring Jewish > settlements but because it was situated on high ground, it was > invaded by the Jewish paramilitary group called the Stern Gang. > Almost 300 defenseless Palestinian men, women and children were > murdered. That expansion of Jewish settlements continues to this day. > > So if the Palestinians have to use unconventional methods of > combatting a usurper that is well-armed by the U.S, then it seems > justifiable to me. Karma continues regards of the political spin > given to one's actions. > > OM Namah Sivaya > > Omprem > > > , "Arjuna Taradasa" > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > > > 93 > > What U say is against historical facts, it is obvious if U take > care > > to study the matter in detail. > > Government of Israel can do sm mistakes, they are mere ppl, but in > > general their politics is in perfect accordance with Dharma. > > Muslims are trying to change facts and lead other countries into > > delusion. In fact, it is they who want war and want to completely > > destroy Israel. That was their task in 6 days war. Thatnx to > Blessed > > Lord, He protected His Land... > > > > The doctrine of named Rebbe is ok, simply U lack understanding of > it.. > > . > > > > Love is the law, love under will. > > > > A. > > > > > > , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > > > OM Eric Otto > > > > > > The rabbi has a self-serving doctrine and therefore as the > doctrine > > > is contaminated with ego it is false. Not only is it false but > the > > > current Israeli government is using that same doctrine to kill > those > > > who it labels "terrorist" and well as any others unfortunate > enough > > > to be in the immediate vicinity of the missiles. Of course, the > > > Israeli government is the original terrorist in that it invades > the > > > lands of another people, kills and deports hundreds of thousands > of > > > them and usurps the land and resources to its own use. The > invaded > > > people who fight against this terror are not terrorists > themselves > > > but freedom fighters. > > > > > > With regard to your question about the virtuousness of killing > > Hitler > > > given foreknowledge of the events that he set in motion,it seems > to > > > me that only more karma would have been created and none > overcome. > > > Those who were fated to suffer and be killed under Hitler would > only > > > have met their same karma under other circumstances. Nothing > would > > > have been avoided. But now the killer of Hitler incurs karma upon > > > himself. Group karma occurs for a reason. If not under Hitler, > then > > > under someone or something else. > > > > > > Attachment to life is one of the five kleshas that keep one bound > to > > > wheel of samsara, reincarnating until the lessons that lead to > > moksha > > > are learned. > > > > > > Killing to prevent the person killed from killing assumes that > > > corporeal existence is real and significant and a valued goal. > But > > > the purpose of all spiritual activity is to transcend space and > > time, > > > to be One without an other. The physical body only provides a > > vehicle > > > to work out one's karma. When moksha is attained the body is no > > > longer needed. Action taken to preserve a body or life solely > > > for the sake of preserving it is erroneous. Action taken to > preserve > > > a body by destroying another body is erroneous. > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > , "Eric Otto" <mkultra@f... > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sin for the sake of sin is a sin, sin for the sake of God is > > > > holyness. > > > > > [reb Yaakov Leib hakKohein] > > > > > > > > > > > > A kind of pedestrian view here, but is this kind of a thing > that > > if > > > > say you had the fore knowledge to have killed Hitler or Stalin > > > before > > > > they did as much as they did, then would that act have been a > good > > > or > > > > bad thing? Secondly, would that have eliminated a lot of ones > own > > > > karma or created more? > > > > > > > > Eric Sponsor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 OM James I aware of the Israeli-US backed group to which you refer. It's vitriol is only exceeded by its lack of sanity and its lack of accurate information. It is up to you if you prefer to be influenced by such a blatant Israeli apologist as this group but a thinking person and a person seeking the truth of the situation would not depend on this site. This thread is getting a little off the original topic. Perhaps we should start another. OM Namah Sivaya Omprem , "JAMES BROADDUS" <jebroaddus@m...> wrote: > For the true story of Islam please see http://fam.showsit.info/ > - > Arjuna Taradasa > > Sunday, November 02, 2003 10:22 AM > Re: Israel - to OMPrem > > > 93 jaya Kali > > i'm not a historian so i don't know all the facts > however i know sm... > > for example, the head mullah of Jerusalem met with Hitler in the > beggining of WW2 and supported idea of killing all jews > > not less jews were thrown out of arab countries without any > compensation for the losses, so it can be considered an equal > exchange. muslims just pretend to forget these things... > > muslim terrorism is a fact, that terrorist-ppl are responsible for the > contra-actions of Israel's government > > aim of politial islam is not \freedom\, but destruction of Israel. > muslims do not want peace, they want jichad, war... > > not only they are so cruel to jewish ppl, muslims tortured, wraped and > killed many christians in Libia > > Y.Arafat supported several terrorist organisations... > > > > According to Bible, enemies of Israel are enemies of God, Blessed be > He. > > A. > > > , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > > Om Arjuna > > > > Before WW2 even ended, European Jews were heading to Palestine and > > displacing Palestinians from their lands. After WW2, that trickle of > > European Jews turned into a torrent. > > > > It is well documented that the newly arrived Jews killed tens of > > thousands and deported hundreds of thousands of indigenous > > Palestinians. That is why the current Israeli government will not > > grant a right of return to all those exiles. There are too many of > > them and Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state. It would > > instead be a multi-cultural state. I personally know Palestinians > who > > as children were taken out of their homes at night and put on a boat > > by a Jewish paramilitary group and exiled. > > > > The early Jewish killers even murdered British soliers held hostage > > and UN officials. > > > > The village of Deir Yassan is a good case in point. This Palestinian > > village had a made a non-aggression pact with the neighbouring > Jewish > > settlements but because it was situated on high ground, it was > > invaded by the Jewish paramilitary group called the Stern Gang. > > Almost 300 defenseless Palestinian men, women and children were > > murdered. That expansion of Jewish settlements continues to this > day. > > > > So if the Palestinians have to use unconventional methods of > > combatting a usurper that is well-armed by the U.S, then it seems > > justifiable to me. Karma continues regards of the political spin > > given to one's actions. > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > Omprem > > > > > > , "Arjuna Taradasa" > > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > 93 > > > What U say is against historical facts, it is obvious if U take > > care > > > to study the matter in detail. > > > Government of Israel can do sm mistakes, they are mere ppl, but in > > > general their politics is in perfect accordance with Dharma. > > > Muslims are trying to change facts and lead other countries into > > > delusion. In fact, it is they who want war and want to completely > > > destroy Israel. That was their task in 6 days war. Thatnx to > > Blessed > > > Lord, He protected His Land... > > > > > > The doctrine of named Rebbe is ok, simply U lack understanding of > > it.. > > > . > > > > > > Love is the law, love under will. > > > > > > A. > > > > > > > > > , "omprem" <omprem> > wrote: > > > > OM Eric Otto > > > > > > > > The rabbi has a self-serving doctrine and therefore as the > > doctrine > > > > is contaminated with ego it is false. Not only is it false but > > the > > > > current Israeli government is using that same doctrine to kill > > those > > > > who it labels "terrorist" and well as any others unfortunate > > enough > > > > to be in the immediate vicinity of the missiles. Of course, the > > > > Israeli government is the original terrorist in that it invades > > the > > > > lands of another people, kills and deports hundreds of thousands > > of > > > > them and usurps the land and resources to its own use. The > > invaded > > > > people who fight against this terror are not terrorists > > themselves > > > > but freedom fighters. > > > > > > > > With regard to your question about the virtuousness of killing > > > Hitler > > > > given foreknowledge of the events that he set in motion,it seems > > to > > > > me that only more karma would have been created and none > > overcome. > > > > Those who were fated to suffer and be killed under Hitler would > > only > > > > have met their same karma under other circumstances. Nothing > > would > > > > have been avoided. But now the killer of Hitler incurs karma > upon > > > > himself. Group karma occurs for a reason. If not under Hitler, > > then > > > > under someone or something else. > > > > > > > > Attachment to life is one of the five kleshas that keep one > bound > > to > > > > wheel of samsara, reincarnating until the lessons that lead to > > > moksha > > > > are learned. > > > > > > > > Killing to prevent the person killed from killing assumes that > > > > corporeal existence is real and significant and a valued goal. > > But > > > > the purpose of all spiritual activity is to transcend space and > > > time, > > > > to be One without an other. The physical body only provides a > > > vehicle > > > > to work out one's karma. When moksha is attained the body is no > > > > longer needed. Action taken to preserve a body or life solely > > > > for the sake of preserving it is erroneous. Action taken to > > preserve > > > > a body by destroying another body is erroneous. > > > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > , "Eric Otto" <mkultra@f... > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Sin for the sake of sin is a sin, sin for the sake of God is > > > > > holyness. > > > > > > [reb Yaakov Leib hakKohein] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A kind of pedestrian view here, but is this kind of a thing > > that > > > if > > > > > say you had the fore knowledge to have killed Hitler or Stalin > > > > before > > > > > they did as much as they did, then would that act have been a > > good > > > > or > > > > > bad thing? Secondly, would that have eliminated a lot of ones > > own > > > > > karma or created more? > > > > > > > > > > Eric > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 OM Arjuna You claim, "for example, the head mullah of Jerusalem met with Hitler in the beggining of WW2 and supported idea of killing all jews". Even if this were true, perhaps the mullah and Hitler himself had forewarning of the all the atrocities the Jews would perpetrate on the Palestinians. Remember that the first Jewish World Congress occurred in 1898 in Vienna with the expressed objective of developing a homeland for Jews. At one point Argentina was considered. So gjven the Zionist conspiracy and according to Rabbi Yaakov Leib hakKohein's theory that "Sin for the sake of sin is a sin, sin for the sake of God is holyness" as presented by you in the first post in this thread, Hitler, the mullah and all subsequent resisters against the Jewish occupation of Palestine are actually performing holy acts when they kill Jews. Now do you see that the theory is flawed? Anyone can claim foreknowledge of an event and kill the alleged perpetrator-to-be. But it is merely a shallow attempt at self-justification of a grievous sin. OM Namah Sivaya Omprem , "Arjuna Taradasa" <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > 93 jaya Kali > > i'm not a historian so i don't know all the facts > however i know sm... > > for example, the head mullah of Jerusalem met with Hitler in the > beggining of WW2 and supported idea of killing all jews > > not less jews were thrown out of arab countries without any > compensation for the losses, so it can be considered an equal > exchange. muslims just pretend to forget these things... > > muslim terrorism is a fact, that terrorist-ppl are responsible for the > contra-actions of Israel's government > > aim of politial islam is not \freedom\, but destruction of Israel. > muslims do not want peace, they want jichad, war... > > not only they are so cruel to jewish ppl, muslims tortured, wraped and > killed many christians in Libia > > Y.Arafat supported several terrorist organisations... > > > > According to Bible, enemies of Israel are enemies of God, Blessed be > He. > > A. > > > , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > > Om Arjuna > > > > Before WW2 even ended, European Jews were heading to Palestine and > > displacing Palestinians from their lands. After WW2, that trickle of > > European Jews turned into a torrent. > > > > It is well documented that the newly arrived Jews killed tens of > > thousands and deported hundreds of thousands of indigenous > > Palestinians. That is why the current Israeli government will not > > grant a right of return to all those exiles. There are too many of > > them and Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state. It would > > instead be a multi-cultural state. I personally know Palestinians > who > > as children were taken out of their homes at night and put on a boat > > by a Jewish paramilitary group and exiled. > > > > The early Jewish killers even murdered British soliers held hostage > > and UN officials. > > > > The village of Deir Yassan is a good case in point. This Palestinian > > village had a made a non-aggression pact with the neighbouring > Jewish > > settlements but because it was situated on high ground, it was > > invaded by the Jewish paramilitary group called the Stern Gang. > > Almost 300 defenseless Palestinian men, women and children were > > murdered. That expansion of Jewish settlements continues to this > day. > > > > So if the Palestinians have to use unconventional methods of > > combatting a usurper that is well-armed by the U.S, then it seems > > justifiable to me. Karma continues regards of the political spin > > given to one's actions. > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > Omprem > > > > > > , "Arjuna Taradasa" > > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > 93 > > > What U say is against historical facts, it is obvious if U take > > care > > > to study the matter in detail. > > > Government of Israel can do sm mistakes, they are mere ppl, but in > > > general their politics is in perfect accordance with Dharma. > > > Muslims are trying to change facts and lead other countries into > > > delusion. In fact, it is they who want war and want to completely > > > destroy Israel. That was their task in 6 days war. Thatnx to > > Blessed > > > Lord, He protected His Land... > > > > > > The doctrine of named Rebbe is ok, simply U lack understanding of > > it.. > > > . > > > > > > Love is the law, love under will. > > > > > > A. > > > > > > > > > , "omprem" <omprem> > wrote: > > > > OM Eric Otto > > > > > > > > The rabbi has a self-serving doctrine and therefore as the > > doctrine > > > > is contaminated with ego it is false. Not only is it false but > > the > > > > current Israeli government is using that same doctrine to kill > > those > > > > who it labels "terrorist" and well as any others unfortunate > > enough > > > > to be in the immediate vicinity of the missiles. Of course, the > > > > Israeli government is the original terrorist in that it invades > > the > > > > lands of another people, kills and deports hundreds of thousands > > of > > > > them and usurps the land and resources to its own use. The > > invaded > > > > people who fight against this terror are not terrorists > > themselves > > > > but freedom fighters. > > > > > > > > With regard to your question about the virtuousness of killing > > > Hitler > > > > given foreknowledge of the events that he set in motion,it seems > > to > > > > me that only more karma would have been created and none > > overcome. > > > > Those who were fated to suffer and be killed under Hitler would > > only > > > > have met their same karma under other circumstances. Nothing > > would > > > > have been avoided. But now the killer of Hitler incurs karma > upon > > > > himself. Group karma occurs for a reason. If not under Hitler, > > then > > > > under someone or something else. > > > > > > > > Attachment to life is one of the five kleshas that keep one > bound > > to > > > > wheel of samsara, reincarnating until the lessons that lead to > > > moksha > > > > are learned. > > > > > > > > Killing to prevent the person killed from killing assumes that > > > > corporeal existence is real and significant and a valued goal. > > But > > > > the purpose of all spiritual activity is to transcend space and > > > time, > > > > to be One without an other. The physical body only provides a > > > vehicle > > > > to work out one's karma. When moksha is attained the body is no > > > > longer needed. Action taken to preserve a body or life solely > > > > for the sake of preserving it is erroneous. Action taken to > > preserve > > > > a body by destroying another body is erroneous. > > > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > , "Eric Otto" <mkultra@f... > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Sin for the sake of sin is a sin, sin for the sake of God is > > > > > holyness. > > > > > > [reb Yaakov Leib hakKohein] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A kind of pedestrian view here, but is this kind of a thing > > that > > > if > > > > > say you had the fore knowledge to have killed Hitler or Stalin > > > > before > > > > > they did as much as they did, then would that act have been a > > good > > > > or > > > > > bad thing? Secondly, would that have eliminated a lot of ones > > own > > > > > karma or created more? > > > > > > > > > > Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Namaste, I feel that I have stumbled on this thread by accident, not only here, but elsewhere in my life. The current question of what is right, what is wrong, who did what and what is to be done right now in Israel/Palestine is everywhere. And it has validity. Our eyes and hearts are drawn to this area of violence and confrontation rightly...and also because it's being given heavy play in the media right now. Which brings to mind that there is violence and suffering elsewhere that no less merits the attention of spiritual seekers. But back to the question. I feel it is right, it is our responsibility to look into the matters there. Especially for U.S. citizens, so much of our tax money is being poured into that region, U.S. businesses are supplying goods that are being used there. It is an important part of our economy and we are a very wealthy nation with a great deal of power. It is right that we should educate ourselves about these issues when our country is having such a profound effect on this situation. This is no esoteric theoretical pondering, people are dying, people are suffering, people are struggling and we are, indeed, involved. Ordinary people may find, as I have found, that it seems nearly impossible to "get to the bottom" of it all, find clear cut answers. In those cases, I throw out the past. Yes, Jews and Israelis have died. Yes, Palistinians have died. Indeed, people on both sides have suffered. Is it thoughtless to toss aside their suffering? Not if it means preventing the cause of further suffering, I think. I wish to see peace in that area. I wish for people to stop collecting on the moral Accounts Due and work to provide for the living. In individual conversations, letters to the editor or the work I do on stage, I wish to speak out against extremism and favor peace, even when peace will necessarily be unfair. It will be unfair. There does not seem to be a fairness to be had, but perhaps there is a future. The question of whether it would be right for me to go back in time and kill Hitler seems like an excercise best held for a late and laid back night in a local coffee house. The question of whether it would be right for me to take the life of someone that I surmised to be a potential killer of millions in this present time is simple...no. We all know that we stand in one point in time and that we can't go killing people justified by premonitions of massacres yet to come. This is still theory, we're still in some languid coffee house preening over our great spiritual wit. I ask you to see yourself as you are, sitting in front of some computer. Is your money contributing to suffering and death? Can you find out? Can you do something about it? This is to me, the greater spiritual question. But perhaps I'm wrong. In these threads, in threads of conversation, no one else seems to see things this way. The question of what to do gets answered by way of what was done, to whom and by whom. Perhaps I just don't get the point. Blessings, pr , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > OM Arjuna > > You claim, "for example, the head mullah of Jerusalem met with > Hitler in the beggining of WW2 and supported idea of killing all > jews". > > Even if this were true, perhaps the mullah and Hitler himself had > forewarning of the all the atrocities the Jews would perpetrate on > the Palestinians. Remember that the first Jewish World > Congress occurred in 1898 in Vienna with the expressed > objective of developing a homeland for Jews. At one point > Argentina was considered. > > So gjven the Zionist conspiracy and according to Rabbi Yaakov > Leib hakKohein's theory that "Sin for the sake of sin is a sin, sin > for the sake of God is holyness" as presented by you in the first > post in this thread, Hitler, the mullah and all subsequent > resisters against the Jewish occupation of Palestine are actually > performing holy acts when they kill Jews. > > Now do you see that the theory is flawed? Anyone can claim > foreknowledge of an event and kill the alleged perpetrator-to-be. > But it is merely a shallow attempt at self-justification of a > grievous sin. > > OM Namah Sivaya > > Omprem > > > > > > , "Arjuna Taradasa" > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > 93 jaya Kali > > > > i'm not a historian so i don't know all the facts > > however i know sm... > > > > for example, the head mullah of Jerusalem met with Hitler in > the > > beggining of WW2 and supported idea of killing all jews > > > > not less jews were thrown out of arab countries without any > > compensation for the losses, so it can be considered an equal > > exchange. muslims just pretend to forget these things... > > > > muslim terrorism is a fact, that terrorist-ppl are responsible for > the > > contra-actions of Israel's government > > > > aim of politial islam is not \freedom\, but destruction of Israel. > > muslims do not want peace, they want jichad, war... > > > > not only they are so cruel to jewish ppl, muslims tortured, > wraped and > > killed many christians in Libia > > > > Y.Arafat supported several terrorist organisations... > > > > > > > > According to Bible, enemies of Israel are enemies of God, > Blessed be > > He. > > > > A. > > > > > > , "omprem" > <omprem> wrote: > > > Om Arjuna > > > > > > Before WW2 even ended, European Jews were heading to > Palestine and > > > displacing Palestinians from their lands. After WW2, that > trickle of > > > European Jews turned into a torrent. > > > > > > It is well documented that the newly arrived Jews killed tens > of > > > thousands and deported hundreds of thousands of > indigenous > > > Palestinians. That is why the current Israeli government will > not > > > grant a right of return to all those exiles. There are too many > of > > > them and Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state. It > would > > > instead be a multi-cultural state. I personally know > Palestinians > > who > > > as children were taken out of their homes at night and put on > a boat > > > by a Jewish paramilitary group and exiled. > > > > > > The early Jewish killers even murdered British soliers held > hostage > > > and UN officials. > > > > > > The village of Deir Yassan is a good case in point. This > Palestinian > > > village had a made a non-aggression pact with the > neighbouring > > Jewish > > > settlements but because it was situated on high ground, it > was > > > invaded by the Jewish paramilitary group called the Stern > Gang. > > > Almost 300 defenseless Palestinian men, women and > children were > > > murdered. That expansion of Jewish settlements continues > to this > > day. > > > > > > So if the Palestinians have to use unconventional methods of > > > combatting a usurper that is well-armed by the U.S, then it > seems > > > justifiable to me. Karma continues regards of the political > spin > > > given to one's actions. > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > , "Arjuna > Taradasa" > > > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > 93 > > > > What U say is against historical facts, it is obvious if U take > > > care > > > > to study the matter in detail. > > > > Government of Israel can do sm mistakes, they are mere > ppl, but in > > > > general their politics is in perfect accordance with Dharma. > > > > Muslims are trying to change facts and lead other countries > into > > > > delusion. In fact, it is they who want war and want to > completely > > > > destroy Israel. That was their task in 6 days war. Thatnx to > > > Blessed > > > > Lord, He protected His Land... > > > > > > > > The doctrine of named Rebbe is ok, simply U lack > understanding of > > > it.. > > > > . > > > > > > > > Love is the law, love under will. > > > > > > > > A. > > > > > > > > > > > > , "omprem" > <omprem> > > wrote: > > > > > OM Eric Otto > > > > > > > > > > The rabbi has a self-serving doctrine and therefore as > the > > > doctrine > > > > > is contaminated with ego it is false. Not only is it false but > > > the > > > > > current Israeli government is using that same doctrine to > kill > > > those > > > > > who it labels "terrorist" and well as any others unfortunate > > > enough > > > > > to be in the immediate vicinity of the missiles. Of course, > the > > > > > Israeli government is the original terrorist in that it > invades > > > the > > > > > lands of another people, kills and deports hundreds of > thousands > > > of > > > > > them and usurps the land and resources to its own use. > The > > > invaded > > > > > people who fight against this terror are not terrorists > > > themselves > > > > > but freedom fighters. > > > > > > > > > > With regard to your question about the virtuousness of > killing > > > > Hitler > > > > > given foreknowledge of the events that he set in motion,it > seems > > > to > > > > > me that only more karma would have been created and > none > > > overcome. > > > > > Those who were fated to suffer and be killed under Hitler > would > > > only > > > > > have met their same karma under other circumstances. > Nothing > > > would > > > > > have been avoided. But now the killer of Hitler incurs > karma > > upon > > > > > himself. Group karma occurs for a reason. If not under > Hitler, > > > then > > > > > under someone or something else. > > > > > > > > > > Attachment to life is one of the five kleshas that keep one > > bound > > > to > > > > > wheel of samsara, reincarnating until the lessons that > lead to > > > > moksha > > > > > are learned. > > > > > > > > > > Killing to prevent the person killed from killing assumes > that > > > > > corporeal existence is real and significant and a valued > goal. > > > But > > > > > the purpose of all spiritual activity is to transcend space > and > > > > time, > > > > > to be One without an other. The physical body only > provides a > > > > vehicle > > > > > to work out one's karma. When moksha is attained the > body is no > > > > > longer needed. Action taken to preserve a body or life > solely > > > > > for the sake of preserving it is erroneous. Action taken to > > > preserve > > > > > a body by destroying another body is erroneous. > > > > > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > > , "Eric Otto" > <mkultra@f... > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sin for the sake of sin is a sin, sin for the sake of God > is > > > > > > holyness. > > > > > > > [reb Yaakov Leib hakKohein] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A kind of pedestrian view here, but is this kind of a thing > > > that > > > > if > > > > > > say you had the fore knowledge to have killed Hitler or > Stalin > > > > > before > > > > > > they did as much as they did, then would that act have > been a > > > good > > > > > or > > > > > > bad thing? Secondly, would that have eliminated a lot > of ones > > > own > > > > > > karma or created more? > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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