Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 93 firstly, Hitler IMHO was sinning not at all for God's sake, but for himself secondly, sin in the context of named doctrine is sin against RELIGIOUS law, not against humanity. note, Sri Abhinavagupta was telling about sin, however he was not only a saint, but a perhaps the greatest philosopher of India and a minister of Kashmir's raja. this doctrine didn't lead him to killing or stealing... and Aleister Crowley also wrote on this point in his Confessions... thirdly, there're sm examples in rather orthodox hinduism. take care to read stories of tamil shaivite saints nayanars or mythology of Kattavarayan's cult. Even what was done by our Lord Krishna, was totally against the law, from the point of view of society that was sin... we have to understand mystical doctrines properly in right context. Shastras give three bases of true knowledge - Sattarka [right logic], Sadguru [right teacher] and Sadagama [right scripture]. these should be our guides in spiritual research... BTW one muslim sufi saint, Sheikh Muzaffar told, that \a sin done with love is better that God-worship done without love\... the essense of named doctrine is that we should change our MOTIVATION first, not outer actions. that is called vikalpa-shuddhi in krama-tantrism. no action will lead to Moksha, only thru inner transformation we can enter the gates of Heaven... Love is the law, love under will. , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > OM Arjuna > > You claim, "for example, the head mullah of Jerusalem met with > Hitler in the beggining of WW2 and supported idea of killing all > jews". > > Even if this were true, perhaps the mullah and Hitler himself had > forewarning of the all the atrocities the Jews would perpetrate on > the Palestinians. Remember that the first Jewish World > Congress occurred in 1898 in Vienna with the expressed > objective of developing a homeland for Jews. At one point > Argentina was considered. > > So gjven the Zionist conspiracy and according to Rabbi Yaakov > Leib hakKohein's theory that "Sin for the sake of sin is a sin, sin > for the sake of God is holyness" as presented by you in the first > post in this thread, Hitler, the mullah and all subsequent > resisters against the Jewish occupation of Palestine are actually > performing holy acts when they kill Jews. > > Now do you see that the theory is flawed? Anyone can claim > foreknowledge of an event and kill the alleged perpetrator-to-be. > But it is merely a shallow attempt at self-justification of a > grievous sin. > > OM Namah Sivaya > > Omprem > > > > > > , "Arjuna Taradasa" > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > 93 jaya Kali > > > > i'm not a historian so i don't know all the facts > > however i know sm... > > > > for example, the head mullah of Jerusalem met with Hitler in > the > > beggining of WW2 and supported idea of killing all jews > > > > not less jews were thrown out of arab countries without any > > compensation for the losses, so it can be considered an equal > > exchange. muslims just pretend to forget these things... > > > > muslim terrorism is a fact, that terrorist-ppl are responsible for > the > > contra-actions of Israel's government > > > > aim of politial islam is not \freedom\, but destruction of Israel. > > muslims do not want peace, they want jichad, war... > > > > not only they are so cruel to jewish ppl, muslims tortured, > wraped and > > killed many christians in Libia > > > > Y.Arafat supported several terrorist organisations... > > > > > > > > According to Bible, enemies of Israel are enemies of God, > Blessed be > > He. > > > > A. > > > > > > , "omprem" > <omprem> wrote: > > > Om Arjuna > > > > > > Before WW2 even ended, European Jews were heading to > Palestine and > > > displacing Palestinians from their lands. After WW2, that > trickle of > > > European Jews turned into a torrent. > > > > > > It is well documented that the newly arrived Jews killed tens > of > > > thousands and deported hundreds of thousands of > indigenous > > > Palestinians. That is why the current Israeli government will > not > > > grant a right of return to all those exiles. There are too many > of > > > them and Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state. It > would > > > instead be a multi-cultural state. I personally know > Palestinians > > who > > > as children were taken out of their homes at night and put on > a boat > > > by a Jewish paramilitary group and exiled. > > > > > > The early Jewish killers even murdered British soliers held > hostage > > > and UN officials. > > > > > > The village of Deir Yassan is a good case in point. This > Palestinian > > > village had a made a non-aggression pact with the > neighbouring > > Jewish > > > settlements but because it was situated on high ground, it > was > > > invaded by the Jewish paramilitary group called the Stern > Gang. > > > Almost 300 defenseless Palestinian men, women and > children were > > > murdered. That expansion of Jewish settlements continues > to this > > day. > > > > > > So if the Palestinians have to use unconventional methods of > > > combatting a usurper that is well-armed by the U.S, then it > seems > > > justifiable to me. Karma continues regards of the political > spin > > > given to one's actions. > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > , "Arjuna > Taradasa" > > > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > 93 > > > > What U say is against historical facts, it is obvious if U take > > > care > > > > to study the matter in detail. > > > > Government of Israel can do sm mistakes, they are mere > ppl, but in > > > > general their politics is in perfect accordance with Dharma. > > > > Muslims are trying to change facts and lead other countries > into > > > > delusion. In fact, it is they who want war and want to > completely > > > > destroy Israel. That was their task in 6 days war. Thatnx to > > > Blessed > > > > Lord, He protected His Land... > > > > > > > > The doctrine of named Rebbe is ok, simply U lack > understanding of > > > it.. > > > > . > > > > > > > > Love is the law, love under will. > > > > > > > > A. > > > > > > > > > > > > , "omprem" > <omprem> > > wrote: > > > > > OM Eric Otto > > > > > > > > > > The rabbi has a self-serving doctrine and therefore as > the > > > doctrine > > > > > is contaminated with ego it is false. Not only is it false but > > > the > > > > > current Israeli government is using that same doctrine to > kill > > > those > > > > > who it labels "terrorist" and well as any others unfortunate > > > enough > > > > > to be in the immediate vicinity of the missiles. Of course, > the > > > > > Israeli government is the original terrorist in that it > invades > > > the > > > > > lands of another people, kills and deports hundreds of > thousands > > > of > > > > > them and usurps the land and resources to its own use. > The > > > invaded > > > > > people who fight against this terror are not terrorists > > > themselves > > > > > but freedom fighters. > > > > > > > > > > With regard to your question about the virtuousness of > killing > > > > Hitler > > > > > given foreknowledge of the events that he set in motion,it > seems > > > to > > > > > me that only more karma would have been created and > none > > > overcome. > > > > > Those who were fated to suffer and be killed under Hitler > would > > > only > > > > > have met their same karma under other circumstances. > Nothing > > > would > > > > > have been avoided. But now the killer of Hitler incurs > karma > > upon > > > > > himself. Group karma occurs for a reason. If not under > Hitler, > > > then > > > > > under someone or something else. > > > > > > > > > > Attachment to life is one of the five kleshas that keep one > > bound > > > to > > > > > wheel of samsara, reincarnating until the lessons that > lead to > > > > moksha > > > > > are learned. > > > > > > > > > > Killing to prevent the person killed from killing assumes > that > > > > > corporeal existence is real and significant and a valued > goal. > > > But > > > > > the purpose of all spiritual activity is to transcend space > and > > > > time, > > > > > to be One without an other. The physical body only > provides a > > > > vehicle > > > > > to work out one's karma. When moksha is attained the > body is no > > > > > longer needed. Action taken to preserve a body or life > solely > > > > > for the sake of preserving it is erroneous. Action taken to > > > preserve > > > > > a body by destroying another body is erroneous. > > > > > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > > , "Eric Otto" > <mkultra@f... > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sin for the sake of sin is a sin, sin for the sake of God > is > > > > > > holyness. > > > > > > > [reb Yaakov Leib hakKohein] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A kind of pedestrian view here, but is this kind of a thing > > > that > > > > if > > > > > > say you had the fore knowledge to have killed Hitler or > Stalin > > > > > before > > > > > > they did as much as they did, then would that act have > been a > > > good > > > > > or > > > > > > bad thing? Secondly, would that have eliminated a lot > of ones > > > own > > > > > > karma or created more? > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Hello again - My original question has lead to a lot of different areas as I have read the various threads and comments tonight. Where some of what has been written here involves intentionality. So if Hitler had had good intentions all would have been alright? Good intentions can support bad means? Where this all kind of hangs up is that a lot of people are hurt in the process. To a certain extent from the various sides expressed, I see that being expressed. There is another place where something somes up about the notion of justice and injustice about this suffering. From the side of the Germans in WWII they were for the good. From the side of the Jews coming into Palestine in the late 40's, they too were for the good that they saw. Of course one solution for this is to say what we have been saying of a good long time and that is good and bad are relative and this might imply to good and bad intentionality, too. HHowever, with all the pain and suffering that has come of that thinking, it is too big a question to leave like that. But, I don't have a solution to that at the moment. There is something missing in the arguments here. There was a discussion of predetermination here. That implies a causal universe. That is that if there had been no Hitler, probably because of karma or agreements something else or someone else would have emerged. The same could be said about the Palestinians or say the soldiers in Vietnam (and I have heard this). So we say our prayers and shuffle home glad it is not us in that drama or with that karma to fulfill. There is something not pretty about that. You can feel it. There unfairness to reality and to the world. This maybe part of the key understanding to all of this though I'm filled with more queations than not about this. Something is short circuited here but i'm not sure what. when I am solving a problem, I come to these points where I'm starting to map out the elements but have not come to a conclussion. In fact it is good to keep a conclussion at bay. A lot of elements are being brought forward here but we are missing something and it isn't a matter of covering it with peace vibes. There needs to be a real undersand here for us to go to the next level. This has been a difficult discussion but very brave, too. We need wisdom. Sincerely, Eric , "Arjuna Taradasa" <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > 93 > firstly, Hitler IMHO was sinning not at all for God's sake, but for > himself > secondly, sin in the context of named doctrine is sin against > RELIGIOUS law, not against humanity. note, Sri Abhinavagupta was > telling about sin, however he was not only a saint, but a perhaps the > greatest philosopher of India and a minister of Kashmir's raja. this > doctrine didn't lead him to killing or stealing... and Aleister > Crowley also wrote on this point in his Confessions... > thirdly, there're sm examples in rather orthodox hinduism. take care > to read stories of tamil shaivite saints nayanars or mythology of > Kattavarayan's cult. Even what was done by our Lord Krishna, was > totally against the law, from the point of view of society that was > sin... > we have to understand mystical doctrines properly in right context. > Shastras give three bases of true knowledge - Sattarka [right logic], > Sadguru [right teacher] and Sadagama [right scripture]. these should > be our guides in spiritual research... > > BTW one muslim sufi saint, Sheikh Muzaffar told, that \a sin done with > love is better that God-worship done without love\... > > the essense of named doctrine is that we should change our MOTIVATION > first, not outer actions. that is called vikalpa-shuddhi in > krama-tantrism. no action will lead to Moksha, only thru inner > transformation we can enter the gates of Heaven... > > Love is the law, love under will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 "So if Hitler had good intentions all would have been alright? Good intentions can support bad means?" All I have been hearing is Hitler! Hitler! least people forget that in this part of the world we have our war stories. During the WW2, the Japanese is massacring thousands of Chinese. What is the Japanese rational for invading the South East Asia? To drive the Western colonialist out of Asia. To some it is a good cause. Yes! We should kick the colonist out. They grow rich while we becomes poor and (like those in Indonesia) to a stage of malnutrition. The people in Indonesia are starving while their colonial master grows rich and fat. A lot of local join in the Japanese Army with this main intention. To them it's a good cause and a just cause. The Westerners are bad and the Japanese are the heroes. Simple as that. And yet it's the Japanese who got the Atomic Bomb and not Hitler! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Dear Eric: Are you referring to my posts when you say "covering it with peace vibes" ? If so, you misinterpreted the purpose of my posts, so I am posting this to clarify. According to Eckhart Tolle in The Power of Now, pacifism is a doctrine, but if we do not allow consciousness to be constricted by doctrine or dogma, what will our conscious response be in the face of grave unconsciousness - that is, in the face of behavior that causes death, pain and destruction? We may not know until we find ourselves confronted by such grave unconsciousness. We may freeze in fear, as much of Germany did under Hitler. Or we may kill, as mothers have been known to do when their children are abused or molested and left unprotected by the law. Consciousness can lead us to think and act anew, but it does not mean that we won't violate laws written by human beings, in the religious context or otherwise. Unconsciousness is found in roles of dominator /dominated, and the false belief that one must lose for another to win. This unconsciousness is taken to the extreme by those who kill or imprison others as their primary means of achieving their goals, and by those who would use doctrine and dogma to keep people bound to laws and ways that do not support the full personhood of each human being. Facilitating the awakening and development of consciousness that can help release people from such limited and limiting roles was the purpose of my posts. My beloved deity Ardhanareshwari is a symbol for this very thing, supreme consciousness in the integration of seemingly opposing forces within, and, as within, so without. Regards, Mary Ann , "Eric Otto" <mkultra@f...> wrote: > Hello again - > > My original question has lead to a lot of different areas as I have > read the various threads and comments tonight. Where some of what > has been written here involves intentionality. So if Hitler had had > good intentions all would have been alright? Good intentions can > support bad means? > > Where this all kind of hangs up is that a lot of people are hurt in > the process. To a certain extent from the various sides expressed, > I see that being expressed. > > There is another place where something somes up about the notion of > justice and injustice about this suffering. From the side of the > Germans in WWII they were for the good. From the side of the Jews > coming into Palestine in the late 40's, they too were for the good > that they saw. Of course one solution for this is to say what we > have been saying of a good long time and that is good and bad are > relative and this might imply to good and bad intentionality, too. > HHowever, with all the pain and suffering that has come of that > thinking, it is too big a question to leave like that. But, I don't > have a solution to that at the moment. There is something missing in > the arguments here. > > There was a discussion of predetermination here. That implies a > causal universe. That is that if there had been no Hitler, probably > because of karma or agreements something else or someone else would > have emerged. The same could be said about the Palestinians or say > the soldiers in Vietnam (and I have heard this). So we say our > prayers and shuffle home glad it is not us in that drama or with that > karma to fulfill. There is something not pretty about that. You > can feel it. There unfairness to reality and to the world. > > This maybe part of the key understanding to all of this though I'm > filled with more queations than not about this. Something is short > circuited here but i'm not sure what. > > when I am solving a problem, I come to these points where I'm > starting to map out the elements but have not come to a conclussion. > In fact it is good to keep a conclussion at bay. A lot of elements > are being brought forward here but we are missing something and it > isn't a matter of covering it with peace vibes. There needs to be a > real undersand here for us to go to the next level. > > This has been a difficult discussion but very brave, too. We need > wisdom. > > Sincerely, > > Eric > > > , "Arjuna Taradasa" > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > 93 > > firstly, Hitler IMHO was sinning not at all for God's sake, but for > > himself > > secondly, sin in the context of named doctrine is sin against > > RELIGIOUS law, not against humanity. note, Sri Abhinavagupta was > > telling about sin, however he was not only a saint, but a perhaps > the > > greatest philosopher of India and a minister of Kashmir's raja. > this > > doctrine didn't lead him to killing or stealing... and Aleister > > Crowley also wrote on this point in his Confessions... > > thirdly, there're sm examples in rather orthodox hinduism. take > care > > to read stories of tamil shaivite saints nayanars or mythology of > > Kattavarayan's cult. Even what was done by our Lord Krishna, was > > totally against the law, from the point of view of society that was > > sin... > > we have to understand mystical doctrines properly in right context. > > Shastras give three bases of true knowledge - Sattarka [right > logic], > > Sadguru [right teacher] and Sadagama [right scripture]. these > should > > be our guides in spiritual research... > > > > BTW one muslim sufi saint, Sheikh Muzaffar told, that \a sin done > with > > love is better that God-worship done without love\... > > > > the essense of named doctrine is that we should change our > MOTIVATION > > first, not outer actions. that is called vikalpa-shuddhi in > > krama-tantrism. no action will lead to Moksha, only thru inner > > transformation we can enter the gates of Heaven... > > > > Love is the law, love under will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 You are right I know but he has become sort of the generic bad guy. , "N. Madasamy" <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > "So if Hitler had good intentions all would have been alright? > Good > intentions can support bad means?" > > All I have been hearing is Hitler! Hitler! least people forget that > in this part of the world we have our war stories. During the WW2, > the Japanese is massacring thousands of Chinese. What is the Japanese > rational for invading the South East Asia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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