Tantra and Hinduism

[Guest guest]

Namaste Satish:

 

Thank you for your contributions to this interesting conversation. I

would just want to clarify one point. You wrote:

 

*** Btw Hinduism includes Tantra. Tantra isn't seperate from

hinduism. It is like a sub-set. ***

 

I would say it differently. I think it's fair to say that Tantra is

not a set of beliefs (Hindu or otherwise), but rather a set of

techniques, undoubtedly originating on the Indian subcontinent, that

can be applied to many different sets of beliefs.

 

So Tantra is a subset of Hinduism, as you say, in the sense that the

its techniques can (but don't have to be) used in approaching the

various belief systems subsumed by Hinduism. In can also be applied

to Buddhist systems, Islamic systems (isn't Sufism basically Tantric

Islam?); and (though this might be strectching the point a bit) even

Chritianity (Gnosticism) and Judaism (Kabballah). Certainly, Tao and

Shinto also can be approached via Tantricism.

 

For the benefit of Mary Ann and any other who might find a clearer

definition helpful, I offer these from the Himalayan

Academy's "Hindu Lexicon" (link below):

 

HINDUISM: Hinduism is the world's most ancient religion and

encompasses a broad spectrum of philosophies ranging from

pluralistic theism to absolute monism. It is a family of myriad

faiths with four primary denominations: Saivism, Vaishnavism,

Shaktism and Smartism. These four hold such divergent beliefs that

each is a complete and independent religion. Yet, they share a vast

heritage of culture and belief. ...

 

TANTRA: (Sanskrit) "Loom, methodology." A specific method, technique

or spiritual practice within the Saiva and Shakta traditions. For

example, pranayama is a tantra. Tantra generally involves a reversal

of the normal flow of energies. Its perspective is that the inner

self is most important, and outer life is secondary. Tantra causes

the life force to flow up through the sushumna. Many are the methods

for overcoming the unovercomeable. Fallen into the hands of the

unscrupulous, these techniques become black magic (abhichara).

 

I would add that there are are Tantric approaches to the Vaishnava

tradition, though I am not knowledgeable in that area. Also, I

addition to Tantra as technique, Tantra can also refer to the texts

that contain those techniques -- "especially those of the Shakta

faith, a class of Hindu scripture providing detailed instruction on

all aspects of religion, mystic knowledge and science. The tantras

are also associated with the Saiva tradition." (That last clause in

quotation marks is from the Hindu Lexicon again.)

 

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/books/dws/DWSLexicon.html

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

Namaste DB,

 

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

>> *** Btw Hinduism includes Tantra. Tantra isn't seperate from

> hinduism. It is like a sub-set. ***

>

>

> So Tantra is a subset of Hinduism, as you say, in the sense that

the

> its techniques can (but don't have to be) used in approaching the

> various belief systems subsumed by Hinduism. In can also be

applied

> to Buddhist systems, Islamic systems (isn't Sufism basically

Tantric

> Islam?); and (though this might be strectching the point a bit)

even

> Chritianity (Gnosticism) and Judaism (Kabballah). Certainly, Tao

and

> Shinto also can be approached via Tantricism.

 

 

Can you name a few of the techniques of tantra that can possibly

be applied to other religions? By other I mean non-indic religions

like Christianity, Judaism etc..

 

There is no doubt that its techniques which are mainly mantra,

yantra, tantra, mudra, nyasa can be applied to Bauddha and Jaina

systems. I want to see how the above mentioned or any other

techniques of tantra can be applied to non-indic religions.

 

If the reason that tantric techniques can be applied to other

religions makes it different from hinduism, then there will not be

hinduism at all.The reason is that some one may say yoga and

hinduism are different coz yogic techniques can be applied to other

religions, and similarly some can say the same about vedanta saying

the vedantic ideas can be applied to other religions, and hence

vedanta and hinduism are different.

The same can be said of the Nyaya system saying its logic can be

used in other areas too and say Nyaya and hinduism are different.

Yoga, Vedanta, Nyaya, Tantra and other systems collectively

constitute hinduism and if we apply the above reasoning to each of

them saying it isnt specific to hinduism there would be bo hinduism

at all. It is like saying the limbs of a tree are different from the

tree.

 

> TANTRA: (Sanskrit) "Loom, methodology." A specific method,

technique

> or spiritual practice within the Saiva and Shakta traditions. For

> example, pranayama is a tantra. Tantra generally involves a

reversal

> of the normal flow of energies. Its perspective is that the inner

> self is most important, and outer life is secondary. Tantra causes

> the life force to flow up through the sushumna. Many are the

methods

> for overcoming the unovercomeable. Fallen into the hands of the

> unscrupulous, these techniques become black magic (abhichara).

 

 

Isnt pranayama supposed to be a yogic technique which tantra

might have borrowed, and the concept of inner self being more

important borrowed from vedanta, not to mention sushumna etc which

can also be found in vedas, which are hindu in origin?

 

rgds

[Guest guest]

Namaste Satish:

 

*** Can you name a few of the techniques of tantra that can possibly

be applied to other religions? By other I mean non-indic religions

like Christianity, Judaism etc. ***

 

I am personally not convinced that such a cross-application is

possible, certainly not with any technical, one-to-one

correspondence. My meaning is that certain aspects of the general

philosophy of Tantra may have influenced certain minority sects of

the Abrahamic faiths. I cannot claim that this is an original idea;

I simply read a convincing book on the subject a few years

ago, "Twilight Goddess," by Thomas Cleary and Sartaz Aziz. It's out

of print now, but Amazon has used copieds for as little as $3.95:

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-

/1570624992/qid=1074625166//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104-6075401-

4478307?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

But there are limits to the correspondance. Wall Street Journal

writer Asra Nomani was born in India, a Muslim. She began delving

into Tantra, and finally concluded that Hinduism and Buddhism were

really the only systems through which to pursue this path:

 

In the blurb for her recent account of this journey,

entitled "Tantrika," Nomani writes, "Hinduism versus Islam. East

versus West. Male energy versus female. True spirituality versus

false opportunism. I had to choose the values with which I wanted to

live." In the end, she finds herself "moving away from her Muslim

upbringing to pursue the Hindu and Buddhist path of divine love."

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-

/0062517147/qid=1074625274//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i0_xgl14/104-6075401-

4478307?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

*** If the reason that tantric techniques can be applied to other

religions makes it different from hinduism, then there will not be

hinduism at all. ***

 

I agree. I also do not believe that Tantric Shaktism can be pursued

with any seriousness outside the context of Hinduism. There are

comparable Buddhist techiques of course; but I cannot speak to that.

Then again, I readily admit a bias toward the Hindu path. I do not

purport to judge any other path; like you, I simply fail to see how

you could preserve Shaktism's integrity outside the Hindu context.

 

*** Yoga, Vedanta, Nyaya, Tantra and other systems collectively

constitute hinduism and if we apply the above reasoning to each of

them saying it isnt specific to hinduism there would be no hinduism

at all. It is like saying the limbs of a tree are different from the

tree. ***

 

Yes, that is so. I would add that N. N. Bhattacharyya has noted

that, for all practical purposes (historically at least), Buddhism

is simply a heterodox form of Hinduism, that the Buddha would not

have defined himself in opposition to Hinduism, and that Buddhism

was never considered a separate religion until outside scholars came

in and began labeling and classifying it as such. I do not know if

this is true, but if it is, it certainly makes a lot of sense.

 

*** Isnt pranayama supposed to be a yogic technique which tantra

might have borrowed, and the concept of inner self being more

important borrowed from vedanta, not to mention sushumna etc which

can also be found in vedas, which are hindu in origin? ***

 

I don't know. I tend to think that a lot of Tantric concepts are pre-

Vedic in origin. And at this point, the "Vaidic" and "Tantric"

threads of Hinduism have became so thoroughly intertwined that it's

just about impossible to speculate on which came first, which

spawned which, which borrowed from which -- or whether they are

simply two separate traditions that melded over the millenia.

 

Thanks for raising some interesting points ....

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> I simply read a convincing book on the subject a few years

> ago, "Twilight Goddess," by Thomas Cleary and Sartaz Aziz. It's

out

> of print now, but Amazon has used copieds for as little as $3.95:

>

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-

> /1570624992/qid=1074625166//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104-6075401-

> 4478307?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

 

Thank you for the references. Am definitely interested in reading

ot atleast skimming thru it sometime.

 

>I would add that N. N. Bhattacharyya has noted

> that, for all practical purposes (historically at least), Buddhism

> is simply a heterodox form of Hinduism, that the Buddha would not

> have defined himself in opposition to Hinduism, and that Buddhism

> was never considered a separate religion until outside scholars

came

> in and began labeling and classifying it as such. I do not know if

> this is true, but if it is, it certainly makes a lot of sense.

 

 

It may be also interesting to note that, the Bala Tripura

Sundari sahasranama(thousand names of Bala) has one of the names

as "Bauddha Darshana Roopa", meaning that She is of the form of

bauddha scriptures i.e She is of the form of Bauddha mantras,

tantras etc. Some other Srividya stotra also has a reference to

Buddha.

> I don't know. I tend to think that a lot of Tantric concepts are

>pre-

> Vedic in origin. And at this point, the "Vaidic" and "Tantric"

> threads of Hinduism have became so thoroughly intertwined that

it's

> just about impossible to speculate on which came first, which

> spawned which, which borrowed from which -- or whether they are

> simply two separate traditions that melded over the millenia.

 

 

Makes sense. Some say that parts of the Rudrayamala tantra might

be older than what indologists assume as Vedic period.

 

Regards.

[Guest guest]

The whole Judaism was originally based on Tantra.

 

Consider: one of the Commandments is "...to know thy God..." A few chapters

earlier the

Bible said "...and Adam knew Chava...and beget [children]"

 

Cross-application is certainly possible. Mainly because all those systems

are but fractions of the former one approach.

 

Regards,

 

Uri-David

 

 

 

 

Devi Bhakta [devi_bhakta]

Tuesday, January 20, 2004 14:22

Re: Tantra and Hinduism

 

 

Namaste Satish:

 

*** Can you name a few of the techniques of tantra that can possibly

be applied to other religions? By other I mean non-indic religions

like Christianity, Judaism etc. ***

 

I am personally not convinced that such a cross-application is

possible, certainly not with any technical, one-to-one

correspondence. My meaning is that certain aspects of the general

philosophy of Tantra may have influenced certain minority sects of

the Abrahamic faiths. I cannot claim that this is an original idea;

I simply read a convincing book on the subject a few years

ago, "Twilight Goddess," by Thomas Cleary and Sartaz Aziz. It's out

of print now, but Amazon has used copieds for as little as $3.95:

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-

/1570624992/qid=1074625166//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104-6075401-

4478307?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

But there are limits to the correspondance. Wall Street Journal

writer Asra Nomani was born in India, a Muslim. She began delving

into Tantra, and finally concluded that Hinduism and Buddhism were

really the only systems through which to pursue this path:

 

In the blurb for her recent account of this journey,

entitled "Tantrika," Nomani writes, "Hinduism versus Islam. East

versus West. Male energy versus female. True spirituality versus

false opportunism. I had to choose the values with which I wanted to

live." In the end, she finds herself "moving away from her Muslim

upbringing to pursue the Hindu and Buddhist path of divine love."

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-

/0062517147/qid=1074625274//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i0_xgl14/104-6075401-

4478307?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

*** If the reason that tantric techniques can be applied to other

religions makes it different from hinduism, then there will not be

hinduism at all. ***

 

I agree. I also do not believe that Tantric Shaktism can be pursued

with any seriousness outside the context of Hinduism. There are

comparable Buddhist techiques of course; but I cannot speak to that.

Then again, I readily admit a bias toward the Hindu path. I do not

purport to judge any other path; like you, I simply fail to see how

you could preserve Shaktism's integrity outside the Hindu context.

 

*** Yoga, Vedanta, Nyaya, Tantra and other systems collectively

constitute hinduism and if we apply the above reasoning to each of

them saying it isnt specific to hinduism there would be no hinduism

at all. It is like saying the limbs of a tree are different from the

tree. ***

 

Yes, that is so. I would add that N. N. Bhattacharyya has noted

that, for all practical purposes (historically at least), Buddhism

is simply a heterodox form of Hinduism, that the Buddha would not

have defined himself in opposition to Hinduism, and that Buddhism

was never considered a separate religion until outside scholars came

in and began labeling and classifying it as such. I do not know if

this is true, but if it is, it certainly makes a lot of sense.

 

*** Isnt pranayama supposed to be a yogic technique which tantra

might have borrowed, and the concept of inner self being more

important borrowed from vedanta, not to mention sushumna etc which

can also be found in vedas, which are hindu in origin? ***

 

I don't know. I tend to think that a lot of Tantric concepts are pre-

Vedic in origin. And at this point, the "Vaidic" and "Tantric"

threads of Hinduism have became so thoroughly intertwined that it's

just about impossible to speculate on which came first, which

spawned which, which borrowed from which -- or whether they are

simply two separate traditions that melded over the millenia.

 

Thanks for raising some interesting points ....

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I was taught (by a Western comparative religion teacher) that Tantra

should properly be attributed to mystical, esoteric cults derived from

Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism. (Don't know if I still agree with that!)

 

I do know that the Western cult of Wicca or Witchcraft, as promulgated by

Gerald Gardner, could be described as a non-Indic Tantra. (But Gardner

was a British civil servant who worked in India and Malaysia, and

obviously studied Tantric and esoteric techniques while there.)

 

Wicca's use of spells and calls strongly resembles <mantra>. Wiccans

often work "skyclad," taken from Tantra's and Jainism's <digambara>.

They sometimes use bones and other symbols of death as talismans and

meditation devices -- that feels very Tantric. There are other minor

taboos (often sexual) that are broken as part of Wicca's training. And

there is a "secret language" of jargon that needs to be interpreted, or

it could mis-lead unfamiliar listeners.

 

(Yes, I am familiar with this knowledge because I'm a Wiccan High

Priest!)

 

But I don't think other esoteric mystical traditions (like Kaballah,

Sufism, or Gnosticism) can properly be called Tantric, even when they

share a technique or two.

 

-- Len/ Kalipadma

 

,

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:37:29 -0000 "Satish Arigela"

<satisharigela writes:

>

> Can you name a few of the techniques of tantra that can possibly

>

> be applied to other religions? By other I mean non-indic religions

> like Christianity, Judaism etc..

>

> There is no doubt that its techniques which are mainly mantra,

> yantra, tantra, mudra, nyasa can be applied to Bauddha and Jaina

> systems. I want to see how the above mentioned or any other

> techniques of tantra can be applied to non-indic religions.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Kalipadma:

 

I agree, in general. I think Tantra is India's *particular* version

of a broad swath of similar spiritual systems that once spread

across much of Europe, Asia and North Africa. These systems probably

all sprang somewhat independently from local wisdom traditions,

shamanism, alchemy, folklore, and so on; and then later, as

communication and trade between ancient civilizations grew, fed and

influenced one another.

 

In countries that eventually embraced forms of Judaism, Christianity

and Islam, these ancient traditions were eclipsed, suppressed and,

eventually, largely lost. What was left survived in secret (or not-

so-secret) traditions of folk medicine and folk religion -- whether

the old Wiccan faiths, the Mary cult of the Latin countries, or

mystical initiatory cults within the monotheistic faiths, such as

Kabbalah, Gnosticism and Sufism.

 

In India, however, the old traditions were not suppressed --

although they did remain largely secret and initiatory. In time,

some of the old oral traditions were partially revealed in the

scriptures we call the Tantras, and -- like any system that has

thousands of years to evolve unharrassed -- the underlying

philosophical ideas become increasingly refined, sophisticated and

intellectually complex.

 

By the 11th century at the latest, Tantric ideas and techniques

began to have profound and observable effects on "mainstream" Vedic

Hinduism -- and vice-versa. Some Tantric ideas and techniques were

Sanskritized; that is, assimilated and elaborated upon by Vedic-

oriented Brahmins. And Tantra itself became intricately interwoven

into the larger network of social and religious relations in India --

along the way manifesting in Buddhism and Jainism, as well as

Hinduism.

 

Today, what we call "Tantric elements" can be discerned in most

major schools of Hinduism, including Saivism and even Vaisnavism.

But nowhere are they more clearly in evidence (and nowhere are they

more essential) than in the various traditions of Goddess-centered

worship that we generally classify under the term, "Shaktism."

 

So ... because of all that, I would agree with your Western

comparative religion teacher that "Tantra should properly be

attributed to mystical, esoteric cults derived from Hinduism." I do

not think Tantra "works" in any significant way outside Hinduism,

and religions that derived or borrowed from it.

 

Gardner's idea of "non-Indic Tantra" is probably a good blanket way

of describing all of those ancient, separate-but-similar wisdom

traditions I referenced above. So while certain Wiccan "spells"

might be considered as distant cousins of Tantric mantras, I think

it would be misleading to take the similarity too far. The two

systems have evolved separately for thousands of years. The

similarities are intellectually interesting, perhaps -- suggesting a

common network of Goddess-oriented beliefs and practices in the

prehistoric and ancient world -- but they probably have little

practical importance at this juncture.

 

Or maybe just this: It strikes me that those seeking to reconstruct

a broken or interrupted tradition could learn a lot from Tantra, an

uninterrupted tradition with whom they share soome common ancient

ancestors. However, I know very little of the modern movements to

revive Wicca or other Pagan religions; it is simply not an area I

have looked into much. For more on these ideas, if they interest

you, see Baring and Cashford's "The Myth of the Goddess: Evolution

of an Image"; and Brooks' "The Secret of the Three Cities: An

Introduction to Hindu Sakta Tantrism."

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> So ... because of all that, I would agree with your Western

> comparative religion teacher that "Tantra should properly be

> attributed to mystical, esoteric cults derived from Hinduism." I

> do not think Tantra "works" in any significant way outside

> Hinduism, and religions that derived or borrowed from it.

 

In general, I haven't been impressed with Western "adaptation" of

Hindu or Tantric knowledge and techniques. Often the techniques get

paired down to save the practitioner from hard work.

 

Also, Pagans tend not to distinguish between various levels of

conscious experience. There are systems in the West for doing this -

mainly the Tree of Life, which is somewhat similiar to the model

presented by the Chakras - but not msny employ them.

> Or maybe just this: It strikes me that those seeking to

> reconstruct a broken or interrupted tradition could learn a lot

> from Tantra, an uninterrupted tradition with whom they share soome

> common ancient ancestors. However, I know very little of the

> modern movements to revive Wicca or other Pagan religions; it is

> simply not an area I have looked into much.

 

Wicca is a relatively new synthesis of several strains of thought,

combining Western ceremonial magick with the shamanic techniques of

primary cultures and a little sprinkling of Hindu lore. Very fe

Pagans actually attempt to reconstruct historical faiths exactly;

those that do are called "recons" for short.

> For more on these ideas, if they interest

> you, see Baring and Cashford's "The Myth of the Goddess: Evolution

> of an Image"; and Brooks' "The Secret of the Three Cities: An

> Introduction to Hindu Sakta Tantrism."

 

Thanks for the recommends! I'm finally awakening from my dogmatic

slumber and giving Shakti serious study.

 

With Love and Laughter,

KG (J)

 

----

Kensho Godchaser

Goddess Devotionalism: http://www.KenshoGodchaser.com/

 

Why should there be anything new? The object of spiritual seeking is

to find out what is eternally true, not what is new in Time.

 

- Sri Aurobindo