The Devi Mahatmyam : The Constant Bloody Battling

[Guest guest]

Mary Ann wrote : "I had a hard time with the Devi Mahatmyam, also,

because of the constant bloody battling. Even if it's meant as

metaphor, why so violent?? (This is a rhetorical question, but

feel free to answer if you have an idea or two....)"

 

Durga is a warrior goddess. Warriors are fighters. They are daring

people. They are not afraid to die or to face their enemy. She has to

face the enemy/demon who threaten the stability of the cosmos. If she

doesn't kill them, they will kill her. Constant battling is the

natural process of survival. If you look within our body, our

immunological system for example is always in a constant battle for

survival. They have to be virulent and powerful otherwise, once the

immunological system paralyzed, death occur. The whole immunological

system has failed to serve its function.

 

What you read in the Devi Mahatmaya is what you are actually reading

is the real experience that is taking place within our body. Our body

constant battle against the "enemy" of the body. But this is

not all.

Devi Mahatmaya is the march of the human soul to its destination. It

is indeed a great spiritual text and Mantra Sastra.

 

Once we embarked on a spiritual journey we will be face with

obstacles in life. Obstacles or some may say negative forces that

will try to stop us. What should we do, just push it aside and

hopefully this obstacles will not bother us again. But that is not

how things are. They will not, so what should we do, we have to

fight. We have to prove that we are indeed worthy of this journey. We

are in constant battle not only from forces that are external but

internal, and the internal forces are the most virulent because we

have to dive deep within ourselves. We have to clean our own wounds

no matter how dirty they can be, and it take courage to do that

especially to remove the dead tissue from our own body. Dead tissues

are the very negativities forces that hinder our spiritual journey.

They are the emotional baggage we keep accumulated within ourselves.

Why do we need them? Remove them !! And that is what Devi Mahatmaya

is saying: Do IT! Only then you can transcend like DURGA: The Great

Goddess.

 

I didn't surprise me that for some they might feel uncomfortable.

Its

like watching a movie eh! Seeing yourself being dissected and you are

to emerge not to feel anything at all.

[Guest guest]

They can't harm her. She is brahman.

 

, "N. Madasamy"

<ashwini_puralasamy> wrote:

> Mary Ann wrote : "I had a hard time with the Devi Mahatmyam, also,

> because of the constant bloody battling. Even if it's meant as

> metaphor, why so violent?? (This is a rhetorical question, but

> feel free to answer if you have an idea or two....)"

>

> Durga is a warrior goddess. Warriors are fighters. They are daring

> people. They are not afraid to die or to face their enemy. She has

to

> face the enemy/demon who threaten the stability of the cosmos. If

she

> doesn't kill them, they will kill her.

[Guest guest]

If she's all-powerful, couldn't she find another way to protect the

cosmos? If she is brahman, aren't there other choices?

 

, "Satish Arigela"

<satisharigela> wrote:

> They can't harm her. She is brahman.

>

> , "N. Madasamy"

> <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote:

> > Mary Ann wrote : "I had a hard time with the Devi Mahatmyam,

also,

> > because of the constant bloody battling. Even if it's meant as

> > metaphor, why so violent?? (This is a rhetorical question, but

> > feel free to answer if you have an idea or two....)"

> >

> > Durga is a warrior goddess. Warriors are fighters. They are

daring

> > people. They are not afraid to die or to face their enemy. She

has

> to

> > face the enemy/demon who threaten the stability of the

cosmos. If

> she

> > doesn't kill them, they will kill her.

[Guest guest]

Regard the "bloody battling" of the Devi Mahatmyam, Mary Ann

asks, "If she's all-powerful, couldn't she find another way to

protect the cosmos? If she is brahman, aren't there other choices?"

 

In seeking for answers to such questions, it might be useful to

remember that Devi = Shakti, and that Shakti = Energy.

 

If you study the behavior of Energy in the physical sciences, you

become aware of many principles. Einstein demonstrated that Energy

is not merely the force that acts upon Matter; it is also the nature

of Matter itself. (The Tantras, in fact, posited this understanding

many centuries before Einstein).

 

Now, one basic principle of Energy is (to put it colloquially):

THINGS FALL APART. Whether it is a molecule disintegrating into its

composite atoms, a withered leaf falling to the forest floor, a

person dying by accident, disease or old age, an asteroid smashing a

planet, a star burning out into a cosmic cinder, or two galaxies

colliding.

 

Whether you study the activity of quantum particles through an

atomic microscope, or gaze at the extraordinary space-scapes

revealed by the Hubble Telescope, you will invariably come away with

the undeniable impression of an extraordinarily violent (from our

human perspective), seemingly chaotic (again, from our perspective),

and utterly transitory Universe. Everything is forever moving,

falling apart, changing, dying ... it is Kali's Dance.

 

But another basic principle of Energy is that: THINGS COME TOGETHER.

 

All of this seeming death and violence appears to be the inevitable

prerequisite for life and beauty. The molecule that falls apart

frees its atoms to form new molecules; the fallen leaf decomposes to

become part of a rich loam in which new trees will be born, grow and

thrive; the dying animal "clears the deck" for the birth of new

animals, constantly evolving and refining in nature -- the fact that

no life is immortal necessitates continuous reproduction, rather

than static, moribund eternal existance. The dust of pulverized

galaxies become the womb in which new stars are spawned. The chaos

of destruction always appears to be a prerequisite for the restored

balance of Creation. It is a beautiful process in the wider view;

though often violent and fearful in its particulars.

 

Through its doctrine of the 36 Tattvas, Shaktism describes a

downward flow of Energy, beginning with the explosive union of

Shakti and Shiva (call it the Big Bang, if you like!), and becoming

increasingly (but never totally) dull and lifeless; sluggish and

unchanging as it descends from that Union. The process of Sadhana is

to reverse that flow, one being at a time. Again: The dynamic is one

of FALLING APART, COMING TOGETHER.

 

Now, as regards your statement, "if she's all-powerful, then ..." I

would reply that this is a faulty premise. She is not all-Powerful.

She is all Power! She is Energy. She is Shakti. "PowerFUL" assumes

that Power is what She has; but that is not quite the case. Power is

what she IS. Energy is what She IS. And Energy behaves in a certain

way. Shaktism calls on us to understand the terrible violence and

desctructiveness of Energy in a broader sense; to see it as a

magnificent and benevolent act of Eternal Creativity. In a way, it's

kind of asking us to stop being pessimists and start being

optimists; to see the Cosmic Cup as filling rather than emptying. It

is a hard task ... but when we begin to succeed, we begin to feel

the the almost unbearable force of Her LOVE. But that is where we

leave mere science and cross into mysticism ... that is a function

and result of Sadhana, not intellectual debate.

 

You also ask, "If she is brahman, aren't there other choices?" I

think this formulation again unnecessarily limits our understanding.

It asks us to imagine a Devi who makes a (moral?) decision that "I'm

going to act violently to resolve this Mahishasura situation,"

rather than "Since I'm all-powerful, I'm going to simply wink my

third eye, and make everything okay again without the unpleasant

necessity of violence."

 

There is just an unnecessary dualism in that view. I agree entirely

with Nora's post #8272, in which she notes, "When we read in the

Devi Mahatmaya, what we are actually reading is the real experience

that is taking place within our body."

 

But I would go still further: What we read in Devi Mahatmyam is

actually taking place within HER body, which is -- after all -- all

that there is. And again, this is simply the nature of Energy. The

asuras who oppose Devi are Her children as much as the shaktis who

compose Her army. All of the blood spilled is, in the end, Her own

blood (think of the icon of Chinnamasta -- the intimate

interdependence of creation and destruction, sex and death). Mahisha

is the force of chaos (FALLING APART) that forms the necessary

prelude to achieving dynamic balance (rather than a lifeless

stasis); Durga is the force of balance and re-creation (COMING

TOGETHER). CHAOS behaves as it must; and BALANCE behaves as it must.

What we see is not a morality tale (i.e. a tale of how we morally

believe things should be), but an accurate description of Reality

(i.e. a tale of how things are).

 

If we are to adore SHAKTI unconditionally, we must learn to accept

and make peace between ourselves and this fact of what ENERGY

actually is.

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

 

 

, "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

wrote:

> If she's all-powerful, couldn't she find another way to protect

the

> cosmos? If she is brahman, aren't there other choices?

>

> , "Satish Arigela"

> <satisharigela> wrote:

> > They can't harm her. She is brahman.

[Guest guest]

Considering the popularity of martial arts movies full of gory special

effects, and of "women warrior" movies and TV shows from Xena to Laura

Croft, I'm surprised that no one has attempted to do a movie of the Devi

Mahatmyam. It would blow "The Matrix" out of the water!

 

(But I suspect producers are afraid of offending fundamentalist Hindus.)

 

-- Len/ Kalipadma

 

 

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:53:58 -0000 "N. Madasamy"

<ashwini_puralasamy writes:

> Mary Ann wrote : "I had a hard time with the Devi Mahatmyam, also,

> because of the constant bloody battling. Even if it's meant as

> metaphor, why so violent?? (This is a rhetorical question, but

> feel free to answer if you have an idea or two....)"

>

> Durga is a warrior goddess. Warriors are fighters. They are daring

> people. They are not afraid to die or to face their enemy. She has

> to

> face the enemy/demon who threaten the stability of the cosmos. If

> she

> doesn't kill them, they will kill her. Constant battling is the

> natural process of survival. If you look within our body, our

> immunological system for example is always in a constant battle for

> survival. They have to be virulent and powerful otherwise, once the

> immunological system paralyzed, death occur. The whole immunological

>

> system has failed to serve its function.

>

> What you read in the Devi Mahatmaya is what you are actually reading

>

> is the real experience that is taking place within our body. Our

> body

> constant battle against the "enemy" of the body. But this is

> not all.

> Devi Mahatmaya is the march of the human soul to its destination. It

>

> is indeed a great spiritual text and Mantra Sastra.

>

> Once we embarked on a spiritual journey we will be face with

> obstacles in life. Obstacles or some may say negative forces that

> will try to stop us. What should we do, just push it aside and

> hopefully this obstacles will not bother us again. But that is not

> how things are. They will not, so what should we do, we have to

> fight. We have to prove that we are indeed worthy of this journey.

> We

> are in constant battle not only from forces that are external but

> internal, and the internal forces are the most virulent because we

> have to dive deep within ourselves. We have to clean our own wounds

> no matter how dirty they can be, and it take courage to do that

> especially to remove the dead tissue from our own body. Dead tissues

>

> are the very negativities forces that hinder our spiritual journey.

> They are the emotional baggage we keep accumulated within ourselves.

>

> Why do we need them? Remove them !! And that is what Devi Mahatmaya

> is saying: Do IT! Only then you can transcend like DURGA: The Great

> Goddess.

>

> I didn't surprise me that for some they might feel uncomfortable.

> Its

> like watching a movie eh! Seeing yourself being dissected and you

> are

> to emerge not to feel anything at all.

>

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

I see it as this : We need to make an effort if we want to achieve

anything. This desire to realize HER must come from within [ a

sincere and honest devotion ]

[Guest guest]

Len/ Kalipadma: "Considering the popularity of martial arts movies

full of gory special effects, and of "women warrior" movies and TV

shows from Xena to Laura Croft, I'm surprised that no one has

attempted to do a movie of the Devi Mahatmyam. It would blow "The

Matrix" out of the water! (But I suspect producers are afraid of

offending fundamentalist Hindus.)"

 

Well I did suggest that we should make it into a children story. I

will never allow my 5 yrs old daughter to indulge too much with

Cinderella or Sleeping beauty or Snow White stuff. I keep on

reminding her that there is no such thing as The Handsome Prince.

They do not exist. But Durga is real. She is in each and every one of

us, if we only know how to FIND HER.

 

But one thing is that, if they make it into a movie, I will

definitely keep Satish out far far away. He is anti climax and will

spoilt the whole drama. No more fun once you know the ending !!

[Guest guest]

Devi is all powerful - how would we believe it unless we see the

power unleashed! Ofcourse, this ultimate power should be shown on a

worthy criminal and not on a weak/docile person. The bloody battles

couldn't be avoided because the villain(s) have become very selfish

after attaining extra-ordinary powers after penance in the form of

boons. The villain is also clever while seeking a boon, that he

makes sure to leave no scope for any existing technology/capability

to ruin his desires. And so extra-ordinary powers become inevitable

to overpower his extra-ordinary capability and save the people of

pain and despair. Otherwise, I believe Devi, with her powers, could

have rewritten the history so that the boon is nullified and such

painful events don't occur. But, wouldn't you then doubt on her

power!...:-).. Isn't life boring without the pain... If there wasn't

pain, we wouldn't have realized the significance of happiness.

 

It is generally suggested to have a guru for proper understanding of

the significance of the Hindu scriptures. Good that we have forums

like to discuss and refine our understanding of these

scriptures.

 

On a side note - Mahatma Gandhi said that he regularly used to read

the scriptures like BhagavadGita (where Lord Krishna exhorts Arjuna

to stand up and fight,) during the weak and enduring moments of his

life. (Gandhi didn't physically fight the British!) Even though he

was non-violent in the physical world, he needed to fight battles in

his mental world by the guidance of the teachings of the scriptures.

I believe Lord Jesus also had to fight a battle in his mind in

accepting crucification when he had the power to make it otherwise.

 

Please correct me if there is a mistake in my understanding.

 

:-{) mahesh--

[Guest guest]

Hello Mahesh and Everybody:

 

About a battle Jesus may have fought in his mind, in The Last

Temptation of Christ, written by Nikos Kazantzakis (they made a

movie of it), such a battle is depicted. And in the movie Donnie

Darko, that theme is revisited, self-sacrifice, the necessity of

self-sacrifice and of death in order to bring another reality about,

or to be in touch with the truth.

 

This thread reminds me of something I've read by Pema

Chodron in the book called Awakening Loving Kindness:

 

"I'm not talking about turning a hurricane into a calm day, I'm

talking about realizing hurricane-ness, or if it's a calm day,

calmness. I'm not talking about turning a forest fire into a cozy

fire in the fireplace or something that's under your cooking pot

that heats your stew. I'm saying that when there's a forest fire,

don't resist that kind of power--that's you. When it's warm and

cozy, don't resist that or nest in it. I'm not saying turn an

earthquake into a garden of flowers. When there's an

earthquake, let the ground tremble and rip apart, and when it's a

rich garden with flowers, let that be also. I'm talking about not

resisting, not grasping, not getting caught in hope and in fear, in

good and in bad, but actually living completely."

 

I think this may be the point Devi Bhakta was trying to make, and

Nora, also, when I questioned the bloody battles of the Devi

Mahatmyam. (If I'm wrong about this, let me know.)

 

I know that it is important to accept something for what it is, and I

also know that once that acceptance occurs is when major

transformation can happen. At the moment of acceptance, there

is freedom, and in that freedom, there are other alternatives to

self-sacrifice and bloody battles. I feel certain of this.

 

Awhile back, I posted some quotes by a woman named Mary

Parker Follett. (I'd repost them, but don't feel like searching the

batches right now!) One quote was about the journey from war to

peace. It was beautiful, and not unrealistic in its scope. Yes, it is

necessary to take a stand in life many times over, but we also

get caught in loops of behavior, history repeats itself, etc. Those

loops, or patterns, or roles, are limiting. They are self-fulfilling

prophecies. My point is that there may be another way than

self-sacrifice, and bloody battles aren't the only answer. And

when scriptures from the East or the West depict only battles for

guidance, they may further the repeat of history, the limited

self-fulfilling prophecy-type phenomenon.

 

Re the book Nora suggested about what happens in our bodies,

it sounds interesting. I will check it out soon.

 

-- Mary Ann

[Guest guest]

"My point is that there may be another way than self-sacrifice, and

bloody battles aren't the only answer. And when scriptures from the

East or the West depict only battles for guidance, they may further

the repeat of history, the limited self-fulfilling prophecy-type

phenomenon. Re the book Nora suggested about what happens in our

bodies, it sounds interesting. I will check it out soon"

 

Yes! of course Mary Ann there are always another way. There are many

path but all leads to the same destination. To some they don't

see

the rational of going mountain climbing, but to me it is the most

wonderful experience. The same for Sadhana, there are different

sadhana for different people, thus the necessity of a guru who will

prescribe the appropriate Sadhana for you. Even for Devi Mahatmyam

there are different interpretation. I am relating it from my point of

view.

 

If anybody interested to read further, there is another called : The

THE ESOTERIC SIGNIFICANCE OF THE DEVI-MAHATMYA By SRI SWAMI

KRISHNANANDA.

 

http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/religions/devi_mahatmya.htm

 

With regards to the book, the tittle is : At War Within : The Double-

Edged Sword of Immunity by William R. Clark.