Caste

[Guest guest]

Describe one Hindu practice to me which is free of caste discrimination.

Give me the name of one dalit or chandala who is allowed in your temple. An

eternal or sanatan dharma would be for all people. I am not debating that

the Dravidian religions of India may be open to all, just that those which

take place in any aspect of Indian society where the Arya rules do ipso

facto discriminate. The history of Sri Vidya that we have today stems mainly

from the ressurection into the mainstream of the tantric practices by

Shankara who avowed to return the Arya varna system to mainstream and who at

that point succeeded. Until Gandhi. Who is hated by the fascist hardcore

Hindus and especially by the BJP.

 

My main point is that in the future there will be a time politically where

being Hindu means being fascist. Right now it's just a movement (BJP), but

if they suceed in gathering much more support then there will be a Nazi

India. It's not so far fetched.

 

My main point is that one must pay attention to the small or it will come

back and bite your ass. If one is a true spiritual practitioner then they

must chose the path which is open to all. Because all discrimination will be

repayed in the long run.

 

I think Sri Vidya is very beautiful. Is it really open to dalits and

chandalas? I actually don't know. Please ascertain the truth of this and let

me know. I would be thankful, because kalachakra is certainly open to all

castes and a massive conversion recently of 2,000 Hindu untouchables to

Buddhism proves it. Whoops there goes the local labor pool. Now whether they

are still discriminated against in Indian society is still another thing.

[Guest guest]

, "Rudra Joe" <rudra_joe@c...>

wrote:

>

> My main point is that in the future there will be a time

politically where

> being Hindu means being fascist. Right now it's just a movement

(BJP), but

> if they suceed in gathering much more support then there will be a

Nazi

> India. It's not so far fetched.

 

 

No. It will not be like nazi. Dont base your opinions on stupid

TV shows(filmed&edited by a bunch of really dumb(or even malicious)

american journalists) that are aired in the US, or what the

ideological opponents of BJP portray it like. R u in US?

 

I will not follow up on this part further, here, it being political.

 

 

>

> My main point is that one must pay attention to the small or it

will come

> back and bite your ass. If one is a true spiritual practitioner

then they

> must chose the path which is open to all. Because all

discrimination will be

> repayed in the long run.

 

 

Nothing will happen to the Srividya tradition. The tradition will

not/need not fear anything.

 

>

> I think Sri Vidya is very beautiful. Is it really open to dalits

>and

> chandalas? I actually don't know. Please ascertain the truth of

>this and let

> me know.

 

 

Yes, it is open. There is a passage in Srividyarnava tantra which

says something like "....cANDAlo api dIkShayet.h", meaning a

Chandala can also receive diksha (if he qualifies). On the other

hand you should note that Sringeri Acharyas deny Srividya even to

ppl from Brahmin community if they dont qualify for it.

 

But the mantras that they will be given will differ a little.

 

SA.

[Guest guest]

This leads me to another question, if you don't mind. A book I read

said that the caste system has nothing to do with Hinduism, despite

what most people in the West think. The book said that it is a social

custom thousands of years old. It went on to say that if you look at

parts of the subcontinent which have become Christianized or

Islamicized, a de facto caste system still exists even when people

pretend that it does not. Is this correct?

 

The book also said that one of the practices of ancient tantrists

was to mix together people of different castes, allowing and even

encouraging them to participate in ceremonies together. This was

something that most of the non-tantrists would never dream of.

 

Sister Yvonne

[Guest guest]

Hi Yvonne:

 

As mentioned in my "Stick to the Topic" post, caste is a hot-button

social issue that tends to generate a lot of mean-spirited posts

that get many people upset and excited, but tends to resolve nothing.

 

So I'd ask members not to consider this topic an invitation to

attack India, Hinduism, or one another. I just want to address

Yvonne's immediate inquiries:

 

*** A book I read said that the caste system has nothing to do with

Hinduism, despite what most people in the West think. The book said

that it is a social custom thousands of years old. ***

 

This is a legitimate theory, and it may or may not be true. The late

Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami (d. 2001), who was a rather

conservative Shaiva monk (and founder of the magazine, "Hinduism

TOday"), tirelessly insisted that caste had no place in Hinduism.

 

However, there are many conflicting theories about the origins and

nature of caste. Of interest to this Group might be the fact that

Shaktism (of the non-Brahminical variety, at any rate) does not

recognize social caste as a bar to participation.

 

*** It went on to say that if you look at parts of the subcontinent

which have become Christianized or Islamicized, a de facto caste

system still exists even when people pretend that it does not. Is

this correct? ***

 

Again, it has been convincingly argued that this is the case. I am

not an anthropologist, however, and have not studied the matter

firsthand, and so I am not qualified to say that this is correct, or

not correct.

 

DB

[Guest guest]

, "Rudra Joe" <rudra_joe@c...>

wrote:

> Describe one Hindu practice to me which is free of caste

discrimination.

 

 

Caste system as is practiced today and varnashrama are entirely two

different things. I do not know of any temple that I have been to

that prevents entry to dalits- perhaps this happens in some really

backward areas. You must be reading a lot of missionary literature

which is usually full of lambasts at Hinduism. Nowhere in the hindu

scripture is a birth based varnashrama permitted; to the contrary

there are various scriptures where it states that this is not allowed.

 

 

The most prominent example is the Santhi-parva in the Mahabharata

where the Bhisma- Yudhisthira samvada occurs(same place as the

Vishnusahasranama)

 

Yudisthira asks Bheesma that there is a controversy about who a

brahmin is? Some say it is birth based and others say it is based on

character?

 

Bheesma replies that "only character constitutes the basis for being

a brahmana and that birth is immaterial."

 

Now surely the all-wise Bheesma knew what he was talking about.

Please read this as it is a truly wonderful discourse between Bheesma

and Yudhisthira. I could cite many other references. Truly it is sad

that the concept of varnashrama has degenerated over time to the

present form of madness; but this is not a fault of Hinduism. Today

anybody can be initiated as a brahmin; pandit Athavale has anointed

more than 60000 fishermen as brahmins, who are very adept at

performing vedic rituals much to the chagrin of the local priests.

 

To summarise, Hinduism today is open to all and you can pick whatever

caste you want:-)

 

-yogaman

[Guest guest]

Rudra Joe <rudra_joe wrote:

 

Describe one Hindu practice to me which is free of caste discrimination.

 

…………SRIVIDYA

 

Give me the name of one dalit or chandala who is allowed in your temple.

 

Mr. Rakesh. If you want the phone number its 00-91-484-2442285. He is young!! He

is a tantric. He is busy. He is great, a so called “untouchable”. He officiates

in more than 40-50 temples as the Tantri or chief priest – He is respected by

Brahmins – If you want the name of one who does it is Thottekkat Krishnan

Namboodiri – who is a priest of brahmins and even the guru of the diety

“poornatrayisha – who is a form of Vishnu – his word is law and its accepted as

such- and the person who should decide rituals in the great Poorantrayisha

temple itself– the presiding family diety of the former Kings of Cochin – and

his phone number is 00-91-484-2776766. He is conservative to the core – yet is

silling to accept even an “alleged” non-brahmin as a competent person. There are

many others. But these things are taken in the stride here and not even

commented upon. Some people with motives other than spirituality attempted to

challenge this but failed because of the socio-legal support. Enough?

If you want I can provide a list of the so called “non-brahmins” who perform

pooja and is accepted by the so called “brahmins”. there are other so called

“dalit” or “chandalas” who are respected by brahmin and kshatriyas – all over

india. of course it will not do to write or make tv presentations about them –

it will not suit the western propaganda of castism in india.

 

I do agree there are depraved people who wants exclusivity. and claim rights are

by birth alone.

 

Please pause a moment and understand the various names for what you call

“Brahmins”.

 

The meanings are Brahmin = brahma jnaaniiti brahmana”. Just being born from a

brahmin (born brahmin yoni) is not enough!! one DOES not become a brahmin

thereby. there are the 16 steps (samskaras = purifications) to attaining

brahminhood. (unfortunatly even now). Those who have not done that even a person

born of a brahmin yoni is not a brahmin. The other word to discribe such a

person is “vipra” – Visheshena prayaanam karoti iti viprah – he who cleaves a

special path on his own is a vipra. The white man uses these words without

knowing the meaning or the steps. The sacred thread only indicates you are a

VIPRA.

 

Aneternal or sanatan dharma would be for all people. I am not debating that the

Dravidian religions of India may be open to all, just that those which take

place in any aspect of Indian society where the Arya rules do ipso facto

discriminate. The history of Sri Vidya that we have today stems mainly from the

ressurection into the mainstream of the tantric practices by Shankara who avowed

to return the Arya varna system to mainstream and who at that point succeeded.

Until Gandhi. Who is hated by the fascist hardcore Hindus and especially by the

BJP.

 

Shankara revived varna as stated in Vedas – not the depraved “birth right”

principle. For your information his guru in Sri Vidya was a non Brahmin woman.

what happens is that normally a person born in a brahmin family automatically

recives the shodasha samskaras – so they automatically becomes a brahmana.do we

not have fords and rotschilds because they were born privilaged so attained

positions that they would not have attained otherwise? That too is a form of

castism and right by birth. I have not heard any criticism in the real sense and

a claim that they should be deprived of their privilages. if some one gets those

samskaras by accident or design becomes one too.

 

for example my aunt’s father in law – a brahmin of great respect and presiding

over hundreds of temples as its “Tantri” or chief priest took me under his wing

at a very early age and i had all the 16 samskaras (at an age when I did not

even understand what these are) and veda adhyayana – and people do accept me as

a brahmin without second thought. i can enter any temple garbhagraha and do

pooja if i want – but I rarely do it. but i have done it in some of the most

famous temples.

 

My main point is that in the future there will be a time politically where being

Hindu means being fascist. Right now it's just a movement (BJP), but if they

suceed in gathering much more support then there will be a Nazi India. It's not

so far fetched.

 

It is far fetched. Please understand that Hinduism accepts everything. It can

and never be fascist. Hinduism is never extreme. It will never be too. The

“Hindu Nationalist” label was given to bjp by the CNN and its elk who are just

propaganda machines for the west and the multinationals. But be rest assured

this propaganda will stop once India progresses the way it is progressing now.

 

My main point is that one must pay attention to the small or it will come back

and bite your ass. If one is a true spiritual practitioner then they must chose

the path which is open to all. Because all discrimination will be repayed in the

long run.

 

Yes its true there was and to some extent is discrimination. There is

discrimination in the west too and there is caste system in the west too. If you

open your eyes and look around you will see it. It is not called “caste” system

that is all. It is based on wealth and position and color. It is bad too. Let

the west first address that problem before pointing fingers elsewhere.

 

I think Sri Vidya is very beautiful. Is it really open to dalits and

chandalas? I actually don't know. Please ascertain the truth of this and let me

know. I would be thankful, because kalachakra is certainly open to all castes

and a massive conversion recently of 2,000 Hindu untouchables to Buddhism proves

it. Whoops there goes the local labor pool. Now whether they are still

discriminated against in Indian society is still another thing.

 

Srividya is open and has been open to “non-brahmins”. The greatest RISHI of sri

Vidya lopamudra herself was a non-brahmin. And for your further information many

– or rather majority of the Rishis of the Vedic mantras were “non-brahmin” . I

am using the term “non-brahmin” as used by you.

 

We India accept them as Brahmins and more and are respected as such.

 

 

 

I am sorry to make such a long post. i have no intention to hurt anyone and I

write what I feel is right – and that’s a privilage that a kaula has.

 

 

 

 

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hello:

 

Comparisons are being drawn between what's going on in the

U.S. government now and fascism, and that isn't far-fetched,

either. The fact that rich privileged families mean people are

automatically "high ranking" is definitely true here, especially

evident in the Bush lineage (and with his brother being the

governor in the state where problems occurred in the voting

process, I'd say more doubts were cast than votes!).

 

Please pardon my ignorance, but I do not understand what you

are saying about Gandhi's role in India in terms of religion and

spirituality. I know that he practiced the yamas and niyamas, and

bramacharya, based on what I heard in his abridged

autobiography on tape. Was Gandhi not supportive of tantra? Is

Sri Vidya based on the Vedas, and Arya varna on something

else? Does only one system have tantra as an aspect of it? And

what is the relation of Shakta to each of these systems? I know

nothing about Arya varna. But can either Sri Vidya or Arya varna

be considered oppressive to women or to the Divine Female

(even if women were/are active in it as it was/is)? Is it possible

for you to answer these questions without my needing to read

several sets of encyclopedias to understand?

 

It's true that raising the spectre of Hitler or Naziism is a hot

button that causes people to attack and defend. But Hitler and

the Nazis were/are part of the human community, so we can all

consider them to be of us, and recognize that such extremists

and extremes exist everywhere, including within.

 

-- Mary Ann

 

, sankara menon

<kochu1tz> wrote:

>

> Rudra Joe <rudra_joe@c...> wrote:

>

> Aneternal or sanatan dharma would be for all people. I am not

debating that the Dravidian religions of India may be open to all,

just that those which take place in any aspect of Indian society

where the Arya rules do ipso facto discriminate. The history of Sri

Vidya that we have today stems mainly from the ressurection into

the mainstream of the tantric practices by Shankara who avowed

to return the Arya varna system to mainstream and who at that

point succeeded. Until Gandhi. Who is hated by the fascist

hardcore Hindus and especially by the BJP.

>

[Guest guest]

Was Gandhi supportive of Tantra? He studied Yoga from Swami Kuvalayananda,

and Tantra is a "mother" of Yoga...

 

Regards,

 

Uri-David

 

 

 

 

Mary Ann [maryann]

Saturday, January 17, 2004 13:29

Re: Caste

 

 

Hello:

 

Comparisons are being drawn between what's going on in the

U.S. government now and fascism, and that isn't far-fetched,

either. The fact that rich privileged families mean people are

automatically "high ranking" is definitely true here, especially

evident in the Bush lineage (and with his brother being the

governor in the state where problems occurred in the voting

process, I'd say more doubts were cast than votes!).

 

Please pardon my ignorance, but I do not understand what you

are saying about Gandhi's role in India in terms of religion and

spirituality. I know that he practiced the yamas and niyamas, and

bramacharya, based on what I heard in his abridged

autobiography on tape. Was Gandhi not supportive of tantra? Is

Sri Vidya based on the Vedas, and Arya varna on something

else? Does only one system have tantra as an aspect of it? And

what is the relation of Shakta to each of these systems? I know

nothing about Arya varna. But can either Sri Vidya or Arya varna

be considered oppressive to women or to the Divine Female

(even if women were/are active in it as it was/is)? Is it possible

for you to answer these questions without my needing to read

several sets of encyclopedias to understand?

 

It's true that raising the spectre of Hitler or Naziism is a hot

button that causes people to attack and defend. But Hitler and

the Nazis were/are part of the human community, so we can all

consider them to be of us, and recognize that such extremists

and extremes exist everywhere, including within.

 

-- Mary Ann

 

, sankara menon

<kochu1tz> wrote:

>

> Rudra Joe <rudra_joe@c...> wrote:

>

> Aneternal or sanatan dharma would be for all people. I am not

debating that the Dravidian religions of India may be open to all,

just that those which take place in any aspect of Indian society

where the Arya rules do ipso facto discriminate. The history of Sri

Vidya that we have today stems mainly from the ressurection into

the mainstream of the tantric practices by Shankara who avowed

to return the Arya varna system to mainstream and who at that

point succeeded. Until Gandhi. Who is hated by the fascist

hardcore Hindus and especially by the BJP.

>

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

*

/

 

 

*

<?subject=Un>

 

 

* Terms of Service

<> .

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:28:22 -0000 "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta

writes:

>

> Of interest to this Group might be the fact that

> Shaktism (of the non-Brahminical variety, at any rate) does not

> recognize social caste as a bar to participation.

>

 

But isn't this because non-Brahminical Shaktism is strongly influenced by

Tantra? And all Tantrics lose caste as a part of Tantric practice.

 

There are, however, non-Tantric Shakti-worshippers...

 

-- Len/ Kalipadma

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Tantrics do not lose caste on becoming one. They lose caste only

when they advance in the tantric path and after getting consecrated

by a rite called mahApUrNadIkShAbhiSheka(mentioned in an Avalon's

article) where the sadhaka performs his own funeral rites signifying

his losing of caste. But the number of sadhakas who qualify for the

above rite are very few.

 

Another place where they lose caste is during certain ceremonies

where they are seated in the form of a Chakra and do sadhana in

groups. However, they will return to the their caste after the

chakra sadhana is over. Mahanirvana Tantra and Kularnava has some

explanation on this I think.

 

There is no discrimination for dIkSha on lines of caste in

traditional Shaktism.

 

Rgds

 

 

, kalipadma@j... wrote:

>

>

> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:28:22 -0000 "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta>

> writes:

> >

> > Of interest to this Group might be the fact that

> > Shaktism (of the non-Brahminical variety, at any rate) does not

> > recognize social caste as a bar to participation.

> >

>

> But isn't this because non-Brahminical Shaktism is strongly

influenced by

> Tantra? And all Tantrics lose caste as a part of Tantric practice.

>

> There are, however, non-Tantric Shakti-worshippers...