Guest guest Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 Thank you for posting on this topic. What great timing from my perspective! I have been reading a book called The Hidden Gospel by Neil Douglas-Klotz, which subtitle is: Decoding the Spiritual Message of the Aramaic Jesus. I was puzzled at seemingly straying from Shakti Sadhana by investigating this book, which I feel is part of my sadhana. I am happy to read Arjuna's statement that the Christian spirituality centered on the "Holy Breath" is the same as Shakti. >From the book: "Likewise, whenever a saying of Jesus refers to spirit, we must remember that he would have used an Aramaic or Hebrew word. In both of these languages, the same word stands for spirit, breath, air, and wind. So "Holy Spirit" must also be "Holy Breath." The duality of spirit and body, which we often take from granted in our Western languages, falls away." Well-known sayings from the Christian Bible are restated in the book with the additional nuance of the multiple meanings inherent in the original Aramaic. Here are some examples: "Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." (King James version of the Bible) This becomes: "A ripe tree brings forth ripe fruit, an unripe tree brings forth unripe fruit." (Translated from the original Aramaic) "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God" becomes "Ripe are the consistent in heart; they shall see Sacred Unity everywhere." "Have faith in God" becomes "Remain within yourselves--live in a place of rooted confidence in Sacred Unity." The word "Alaha" is the name of the Divine, and means "Sacred Unity. Comparisons are drawn between "Alaha" and "Allah," "Elohim,Elat" (Great Goddess, emphasizes the One that is Embodied, Here and Now), and other variations on the theme of Divinity. It is quite an interesting book! Mary Ann , "Arjuna Taradasa" <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > 93 > "Spiritual christianity" means that christianity which is centered > on Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit (Ruach ha-Qodesh and Shekhinah in > judaism) is same as Shakti of hinduism and KSh. Thus shaktipata is > present there. > The matter of comparative study of christianity and tantrism is very > broad and deep. It is not possible to put it into a small e-mail. > Maybe, i come to this point later. > BTW there was published a rather useful book about christianity and > shaivism (smth like "Mysticism of Shaivism and Christianity")... > I may even say, that tantrism in its essence is closer to > christianity, kabbalah and sufism, than to "mainstream" of > hinduism :-). > God bless! > A. > > , "Satish Arigela" > <satisharigela> wrote: > > > > So they have shaktipata in spiritual christianity? > > > > What is spiritual christianity? Never heard of it. > > In what ways is it close to Ksh? > > > > SA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Beloved, I agree with you that its a very interesting book, and I admire the effort the author makes, but I feel I should point out to you that this author does take (from an academic point of view) some serious liberties in his "translation" of aramaic to fit his goals. First of all, he is not "translating" aramaic. The gospels are written in greek. So he is essentially guessing which greek words might have corresponded to aramaic words. This is even trickier than regular translating. To give you an example to understand this: take the Bhagavad Gita. We all know that to translate the Gita into english you can end up with RADICALLY different translation. The same verse in the Gita might end up looking very very different in English if its translated by, say a Hare Krishna, than if its translated by, say, a follower of Advaita. But now, imagine that you don't have the Gita in Sanskrit. Instead, you have an English translation of the Gita. And you try to "translate" that back into Sanskrit, without ever looking at a sanskrit copy of the Gita! You may end up using very different sanskrit words than what was in the original scripture! This is what the author of the Hidden gospel is doing. This means he takes some real liberties with certain words. He also takes some real liberties with the meanings of certain aramaic words. For example, "Alaha" as "sacred unity". It would be most sensible to simply translate this word as God, because that is what most people in that time thought of it as. Just like a typical Muslim today would not say that the word "Allah" means "sacred unity", they would tell you that "Allah" means God. Even if you try to break down the word, the most literal translation of "Alaha" would be "all that is and is not". I do not see where the author finds the words "sacred" and "unity" in the aramaic word "Alaha". Love Swami --- Mary Ann <maryann wrote: > Thank you for posting on this topic. What great > timing from my > perspective! I have been reading a book called The > Hidden > Gospel by Neil Douglas-Klotz, which subtitle is: > Decoding the > Spiritual Message of the Aramaic Jesus. > > I was puzzled at seemingly straying from Shakti > Sadhana by > investigating this book, which I feel is part of my > sadhana. I am > happy to read Arjuna's statement that the Christian > spirituality > centered on the "Holy Breath" is the same as Shakti. > > > From the book: "Likewise, whenever a saying of > Jesus refers to > spirit, we must remember that he would have used an > Aramaic > or Hebrew word. In both of these languages, the > same word > stands for spirit, breath, air, and wind. So "Holy > Spirit" must also > be "Holy Breath." The duality of spirit and body, > which we often > take from granted in our Western languages, falls > away." > > Well-known sayings from the Christian Bible are > restated in the > book with the additional nuance of the multiple > meanings > inherent in the original Aramaic. Here are some > examples: > > "Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a > corrupt tree > bringeth forth evil fruit." (King James version of > the Bible) > > This becomes: "A ripe tree brings forth ripe fruit, > an unripe tree > brings forth unripe fruit." (Translated from the > original Aramaic) > > "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see > God" becomes > "Ripe are the consistent in heart; they shall see > Sacred Unity > everywhere." > > "Have faith in God" becomes "Remain within > yourselves--live in a > place of rooted confidence in Sacred Unity." > > The word "Alaha" is the name of the Divine, and > means "Sacred > Unity. Comparisons are drawn between "Alaha" and > "Allah," > "Elohim,Elat" (Great Goddess, emphasizes the One > that is > Embodied, Here and Now), and other variations on the > theme of > Divinity. > > It is quite an interesting book! > > Mary Ann , "Arjuna > Taradasa" > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > 93 > > "Spiritual christianity" means that christianity > which is centered > > on Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit (Ruach ha-Qodesh and > Shekhinah in > > judaism) is same as Shakti of hinduism and KSh. > Thus > shaktipata is > > present there. > > The matter of comparative study of christianity > and tantrism is > very > > broad and deep. It is not possible to put it into > a small e-mail. > > Maybe, i come to this point later. > > BTW there was published a rather useful book about > > christianity and > > shaivism (smth like "Mysticism of Shaivism and > Christianity")... > > I may even say, that tantrism in its essence is > closer to > > christianity, kabbalah and sufism, than to > "mainstream" of > > hinduism :-). > > God bless! > > A. > > > > , "Satish > Arigela" > > <satisharigela> wrote: > > > > > > So they have shaktipata in spiritual > christianity? > > > > > > What is spiritual christianity? Never heard of > it. > > > In what ways is it close to Ksh? > > > > > > SA. > > Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes./filing.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Thank you for your kind response. I guess the "translation," or imaginative re-interpretation, or whatever is it, works for me because I see "God" as potentially a patriarchal term, and "Sacred Unity" or "all that is and is not" are preferable in being non- gendered. I have not yet found the basis of "Sacred Unity" as a translation of "Alaha" in the book, only a statement that it can be. I will see if there are meanings listed that lead to "Sacred Unity" and if so, I will post them if anyone is interested (I am I did also feel the author was reaching to make Jesus' sayings fit what he wants them to say, and decided I probably would NOT be sending this book to my born-again sister in an attempt to bridge the gap between us! Love, Mary Ann , Swami Anand Nisarg <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > Beloved, > > I agree with you that its a very interesting book, and > I admire the effort the author makes, but I feel I > should point out to you that this author does take > (from an academic point of view) some serious > liberties in his "translation" of aramaic to fit his > goals. > > First of all, he is not "translating" aramaic. The > gospels are written in greek. So he is essentially > guessing which greek words might have corresponded to > aramaic words. This is even trickier than regular > translating. > > To give you an example to understand this: take the > Bhagavad Gita. We all know that to translate the Gita > into english you can end up with RADICALLY different > translation. The same verse in the Gita might end up > looking very very different in English if its > translated by, say a Hare Krishna, than if its > translated by, say, a follower of Advaita. > > But now, imagine that you don't have the Gita in > Sanskrit. Instead, you have an English translation of > the Gita. And you try to "translate" that back into > Sanskrit, without ever looking at a sanskrit copy of > the Gita! You may end up using very different > sanskrit words than what was in the original > scripture! This is what the author of the Hidden > gospel is doing. This means he takes some real > liberties with certain words. > > He also takes some real liberties with the meanings of > certain aramaic words. For example, "Alaha" as > "sacred unity". It would be most sensible to simply > translate this word as God, because that is what most > people in that time thought of it as. Just like a > typical Muslim today would not say that the word > "Allah" means "sacred unity", they would tell you that > "Allah" means God. > Even if you try to break down the word, the most > literal translation of "Alaha" would be "all that is > and is not". > I do not see where the author finds the words "sacred" > and "unity" in the aramaic word "Alaha". > > Love > Swami > --- Mary Ann <maryann@m...> wrote: > > Thank you for posting on this topic. What great > > timing from my > > perspective! I have been reading a book called The > > Hidden > > Gospel by Neil Douglas-Klotz, which subtitle is: > > Decoding the > > Spiritual Message of the Aramaic Jesus. > > > > I was puzzled at seemingly straying from Shakti > > Sadhana by > > investigating this book, which I feel is part of my > > sadhana. I am > > happy to read Arjuna's statement that the Christian > > spirituality > > centered on the "Holy Breath" is the same as Shakti. > > > > > > From the book: "Likewise, whenever a saying of > > Jesus refers to > > spirit, we must remember that he would have used an > > Aramaic > > or Hebrew word. In both of these languages, the > > same word > > stands for spirit, breath, air, and wind. So "Holy > > Spirit" must also > > be "Holy Breath." The duality of spirit and body, > > which we often > > take from granted in our Western languages, falls > > away." > > > > Well-known sayings from the Christian Bible are > > restated in the > > book with the additional nuance of the multiple > > meanings > > inherent in the original Aramaic. Here are some > > examples: > > > > "Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a > > corrupt tree > > bringeth forth evil fruit." (King James version of > > the Bible) > > > > This becomes: "A ripe tree brings forth ripe fruit, > > an unripe tree > > brings forth unripe fruit." (Translated from the > > original Aramaic) > > > > "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see > > God" becomes > > "Ripe are the consistent in heart; they shall see > > Sacred Unity > > everywhere." > > > > "Have faith in God" becomes "Remain within > > yourselves--live in a > > place of rooted confidence in Sacred Unity." > > > > The word "Alaha" is the name of the Divine, and > > means "Sacred > > Unity. Comparisons are drawn between "Alaha" and > > "Allah," > > "Elohim,Elat" (Great Goddess, emphasizes the One > > that is > > Embodied, Here and Now), and other variations on the > > theme of > > Divinity. > > > > It is quite an interesting book! > > > > Mary Ann > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Arjuna > > Taradasa" > > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > 93 > > > "Spiritual christianity" means that christianity > > which is centered > > > on Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit (Ruach ha-Qodesh and > > Shekhinah in > > > judaism) is same as Shakti of hinduism and KSh. > > Thus > > shaktipata is > > > present there. > > > The matter of comparative study of christianity > > and tantrism is > > very > > > broad and deep. It is not possible to put it into > > a small e-mail. > > > Maybe, i come to this point later. > > > BTW there was published a rather useful book about > > > > christianity and > > > shaivism (smth like "Mysticism of Shaivism and > > Christianity")... > > > I may even say, that tantrism in its essence is > > closer to > > > christianity, kabbalah and sufism, than to > > "mainstream" of > > > hinduism :-). > > > God bless! > > > A. > > > > > > , "Satish > > Arigela" > > > <satisharigela> wrote: > > > > > > > > So they have shaktipata in spiritual > > christianity? > > > > > > > > What is spiritual christianity? Never heard of > > it. > > > > In what ways is it close to Ksh? > > > > > > > > SA. > > > > > > > > > Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. > http://taxes./filing.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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