I am

[Guest guest]

More from the book The Hidden Gospel:

 

The "I am" leads us to the right experiences at the right time and

place.

("I am the good shepherd," King James Version of the Bible at

John 10:11)

 

Simple Presence is the food of understanding, giving life to all.

( "I am the bread of life," KJV, John 6:35)

 

The "I am" gives knowledge of all levels of sensation and

existence.

( "I am the light of the world," KJV, John 8:12)

 

Simple Presence is the door between all worlds.

("I am the door," KJV, John 10:9)

 

The point is that the phrase "I am" does not necessarily refer

exclusively to the person of Jesus, and that the Aramaic sense of

the words allows for interpreting them as above, whereas the

"traditional" or orthodox way of interpreting them (KJV) makes

Jesus the "only way."

 

I initially thought of posting these to the message subject "The

Stubborn Hindus" because the reinterpretations here explain

why Hindus would not feel inclined to "convert," and the book's

author is attempting to show that Jesus' message was not that

of orthodox Christianity, but more in line with eastern spiritual

traditions.

 

The Hidden Gospel book appeals to me because I am a fan of

looking words up in the dictionary, tracing their meanings, and

recognizing their multi-layered capacities. Often, we have such a

limited conscious usage and understanding of language, yet we

partake in the "collective unconscious," to use a Jungian term.

Since that is as old as humanity and it is present with us all the

time, being knowledgeable about words and their meanings

over time can deepen our understandings of what we see or

hear in dreams, what our deepest self conveys to us, and

whatever truly "speaks" to us in the world, whether in scriptures,

or new-age Hinduism or whatever.

[Guest guest]

93 Christ is risen!

 

Again answering Mary Ann in connection with that book, i have no

intention to argue with her or anyone. But i have to "witness about

the Word, That lived among us".

Of course these "interpretations" are cunningly twisting the meaning

of Gospels and not providing any "hidden" one. The author simply tries

again and again to push his/her own new-age ideas as the "true

meaning" of Jesus' message.

If these peculiar version about "i am" was at least possible, it would

have become an arguement of judaists against christianity. But rabbis

as far as i know never understood those statements in this manner. And

i guess aramaic they new perfectly.

Second reason i can provide: if this was some "hidden" doctrine, it

would have been present in judaic esoterism aka Kabbalah. Again, up to

my knowledge, there is no such idea in any of kabbalistic texts

including aramaic Zohar.

For sure so called orthodox christianity (as well as protestant) is

not exactly the same what Yeshua ha-Nozri preached. But the spirit of

His is present in christianity in general despite of all later

inventions etc. All christianity preaches CHRIST.

I'm not sure what is meant in Mary's posting by "eastern spiritual

traditions". In geographical sense christianity, judaism and islam are

eastern as well as hinduism, taoism and shinto. But i guess by

"eastern" were ment hinduism, buddhism (that too in fact their

"cola-version" for westerners) and they have almost nothing in common

with message of Jesus. However orthodox christianity thou changed the

form of original preserved the essense. That essense is Christ.

Hidden meaning of mentioned statements of Jesus can be understood

properly in the light of mystical judaism and it's teaching about

Mashiach (Messiah aka Christ). It is a rude mistake to interpret them

from the point of view of some modern "pagan" teachings.

Lastly, i have nothing against zen-buddhism, advaita-shaivism or

whatever. My point is rather simple - just do not invent such meanings

that were never meant originally. It is a way to lie, not to Truth.

 

Love is the law, love under will.

 

A.

 

, "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

wrote:

> More from the book The Hidden Gospel:

>

> The "I am" leads us to the right experiences at the right time and

> place.

> ("I am the good shepherd," King James Version of the Bible at

> John 10:11)

>

> Simple Presence is the food of understanding, giving life to all.

> ( "I am the bread of life," KJV, John 6:35)

>

> The "I am" gives knowledge of all levels of sensation and

> existence.

> ( "I am the light of the world," KJV, John 8:12)

>

> Simple Presence is the door between all worlds.

> ("I am the door," KJV, John 10:9)

>

> The point is that the phrase "I am" does not necessarily refer

> exclusively to the person of Jesus, and that the Aramaic sense of

> the words allows for interpreting them as above, whereas the

> "traditional" or orthodox way of interpreting them (KJV) makes

> Jesus the "only way."

>

> I initially thought of posting these to the message subject "The

> Stubborn Hindus" because the reinterpretations here explain

> why Hindus would not feel inclined to "convert," and the book's

> author is attempting to show that Jesus' message was not that

> of orthodox Christianity, but more in line with eastern spiritual

> traditions.

>

> The Hidden Gospel book appeals to me because I am a fan of

> looking words up in the dictionary, tracing their meanings, and

> recognizing their multi-layered capacities. Often, we have such a

> limited conscious usage and understanding of language, yet we

> partake in the "collective unconscious," to use a Jungian term.

> Since that is as old as humanity and it is present with us all the

> time, being knowledgeable about words and their meanings

> over time can deepen our understandings of what we see or

> hear in dreams, what our deepest self conveys to us, and

> whatever truly "speaks" to us in the world, whether in scriptures,

> or new-age Hinduism or whatever.

[Guest guest]

Dear Arjuna:

 

I think this is again the argument of dogma vs. heart. If

"invented" meanings - that is, those meanings, interpretations or

feelings that some would accuse others of "inventing" - take a

person deeper spiritually, they serve to bring about spiritual

evolution. That is what the author of this book says. The gnostics

were accused of making things up beyond the text (see Pagels'

The Gnostic Gospels).

 

Sometimes hearts leap while minds are chained.

 

Time for a song!

 

Why do fools fall in love

Why do birds sing so gay

Love is awake at the break of day

Why do they fall in love

 

Why does the rain fall from up above

Why do fools fall in love

Why do they fall in love

 

Why does my heart skip with a crazy beat

'Fore I know it will fail to beat

Tell my why why

Why do they fall in love

 

Why do fools fall in love

Doom Bopa Doom Bopa Doom Bopa Doo Dut

Why do birds sing so gay

Love is awake at the break of day

Why do they fall in love

 

Why does the rain fall from up above

Why do fools fall in love

Why do they fall in love

 

Tell my why why

Why do they fall in love

 

Tell my why why

Why do they fall in love

 

Namaskar,

Mary Ann

 

 

, "Arjuna Taradasa"

<bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

> 93 Christ is risen!

>

> Again answering Mary Ann in connection with that book, i have

no

> intention to argue with her or anyone. But i have to "witness

about

> the Word, That lived among us".

> Of course these "interpretations" are cunningly twisting the

meaning

> of Gospels and not providing any "hidden" one. The author

simply tries

> again and again to push his/her own new-age ideas as the

"true

> meaning" of Jesus' message.

> If these peculiar version about "i am" was at least possible, it

would

> have become an arguement of judaists against christianity. But

rabbis

> as far as i know never understood those statements in this

manner. And

> i guess aramaic they new perfectly.

> Second reason i can provide: if this was some "hidden"

doctrine, it

> would have been present in judaic esoterism aka Kabbalah.

Again, up to

> my knowledge, there is no such idea in any of kabbalistic texts

> including aramaic Zohar.

> For sure so called orthodox christianity (as well as protestant)

is

> not exactly the same what Yeshua ha-Nozri preached. But the

spirit of

> His is present in christianity in general despite of all later

> inventions etc. All christianity preaches CHRIST.

> I'm not sure what is meant in Mary's posting by "eastern

spiritual

> traditions". In geographical sense christianity, judaism and

islam are

> eastern as well as hinduism, taoism and shinto. But i guess

by

> "eastern" were ment hinduism, buddhism (that too in fact their

> "cola-version" for westerners) and they have almost nothing in

common

> with message of Jesus. However orthodox christianity thou

changed the

> form of original preserved the essense. That essense is

Christ.

> Hidden meaning of mentioned statements of Jesus can be

understood

> properly in the light of mystical judaism and it's teaching about

> Mashiach (Messiah aka Christ). It is a rude mistake to interpret

them

> from the point of view of some modern "pagan" teachings.

> Lastly, i have nothing against zen-buddhism, advaita-shaivism

or

> whatever. My point is rather simple - just do not invent such

meanings

> that were never meant originally. It is a way to lie, not to Truth.

>

> Love is the law, love under will.

>

> A.

>

> , "Mary Ann"

<maryann@m...>

> wrote:

> > More from the book The Hidden Gospel:

> >

> > The "I am" leads us to the right experiences at the right time

and

> > place.

> > ("I am the good shepherd," King James Version of the Bible

at

> > John 10:11)

> >

> > Simple Presence is the food of understanding, giving life to

all.

> > ( "I am the bread of life," KJV, John 6:35)

> >

> > The "I am" gives knowledge of all levels of sensation and

> > existence.

> > ( "I am the light of the world," KJV, John 8:12)

> >

> > Simple Presence is the door between all worlds.

> > ("I am the door," KJV, John 10:9)

> >

> > The point is that the phrase "I am" does not necessarily refer

> > exclusively to the person of Jesus, and that the Aramaic

sense of

> > the words allows for interpreting them as above, whereas the

> > "traditional" or orthodox way of interpreting them (KJV) makes

> > Jesus the "only way."

> >

> > I initially thought of posting these to the message subject

"The

> > Stubborn Hindus" because the reinterpretations here explain

> > why Hindus would not feel inclined to "convert," and the

book's

> > author is attempting to show that Jesus' message was not

that

> > of orthodox Christianity, but more in line with eastern spiritual

> > traditions.

> >

> > The Hidden Gospel book appeals to me because I am a fan

of

> > looking words up in the dictionary, tracing their meanings,

and

> > recognizing their multi-layered capacities. Often, we have

such a

> > limited conscious usage and understanding of language, yet

we

> > partake in the "collective unconscious," to use a Jungian

term.

> > Since that is as old as humanity and it is present with us all

the

> > time, being knowledgeable about words and their meanings

> > over time can deepen our understandings of what we see or

> > hear in dreams, what our deepest self conveys to us, and

> > whatever truly "speaks" to us in the world, whether in

scriptures,

> > or new-age Hinduism or whatever.

[Guest guest]

Beloved Mary Ann,

 

If you have read Pagel's "Gnostic Gospels" (have

you?), then you would know that there is a REAL

gnostic teaching, including many Gnostic Scriptures

that survive today.

 

The "nag hammadi" archive has about 50 gnostic

scriptures! A very good indicator of their teachings

and beliefs.

 

And they are quite different from the "i am" new age

nonsense that the author of the hidden gospel tries to

pass as historically plausible (it isn't).

 

So if you truly, HONESTLY want to look at the "hidden"

teachings of Jesus, and your choices are:

A) the real actual, surviving, gnostic gospels written

in the 1st to 4th century CE

B) rampant speculation and word games made up by a new

age theosophist in 2002

 

Which do you think is the more sincere, honest,

truth-upholding choice?

 

Love

Swami

[Guest guest]

Dear swamiji:

 

My point isn't about historical accuracy, it's about deepening

spiritual awareness. I am interested in what moves me in more

life- and love- affirming ways. I feel moved by the author's work in

the book The Hidden Gospel, for any and all creative license he

takes. BTW the author, Neil Douglas-Klotz, identifies as Sufi.

 

The author of this book is not claiming that there are 10 stone

tablets yet to be unearthed that contain his interpretations of

Jesus' words as chiseled there by Jesus' own hand. He merely

turns his interpretative skills in Aramaic to Christian scriptures to

open up the possible meanings there beyond the limited way the

teachings have come down - the way that says Jesus is the only

way. In my understanding from reading this book, the author

doesn't agree that Jesus ever meant that, which is why he

explored the Aramaic as he did.

 

Cheers,

Mary Ann

 

 

 

, Swami Anand Nisarg

<swamiji_nisarg> wrote:

> Beloved Mary Ann,

>

> If you have read Pagel's "Gnostic Gospels" (have

> you?), then you would know that there is a REAL

> gnostic teaching, including many Gnostic Scriptures

> that survive today.

>

> The "nag hammadi" archive has about 50 gnostic

> scriptures! A very good indicator of their teachings

> and beliefs.

>

> And they are quite different from the "i am" new age

> nonsense that the author of the hidden gospel tries to

> pass as historically plausible (it isn't).

>

> So if you truly, HONESTLY want to look at the "hidden"

> teachings of Jesus, and your choices are:

> A) the real actual, surviving, gnostic gospels written

> in the 1st to 4th century CE

> B) rampant speculation and word games made up by a new

> age theosophist in 2002

>

> Which do you think is the more sincere, honest,

> truth-upholding choice?

>

> Love

> Swami

[Guest guest]

93

 

The Good News of christianity is not dogma, it is CHRIST.

Christianity appeals to heart. Just take a look at Gospels and

letters of Paul and John...

It is the author of that book trying to push "new-age" dogmas in the

place of simple message of Love of Christ, who PERSONALLY suffered

for us. It is not "i am" hang on the cross...

"Who doesn't love, he knows not our Father" (John).

 

Love is the law, love under will.

A.

 

 

, "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

wrote:

> Dear Arjuna:

>

> I think this is again the argument of dogma vs. heart. If

> "invented" meanings - that is, those meanings, interpretations or

> feelings that some would accuse others of "inventing" - take a

> person deeper spiritually, they serve to bring about spiritual

> evolution. That is what the author of this book says. The gnostics

> were accused of making things up beyond the text (see Pagels'

> The Gnostic Gospels).

>

>

[Guest guest]

93

 

Swami, U are exactly in the point :-)

My respect to U.

 

I may add that from theological point of view it is quiet useful to

see christian doctines in the light of mystical judaism as well.

Yeshua himself was a jew and most of his disciples were.

We may see three types of gnosticism: christian one (as in Gospel of

Thomas and Philipp), judaic (Sepher ha-Zohar, writings of I.Lurie and

sabbatian Kabbalah) and "mixed" (mandeism etc). If we study them it

provides a wider and perhaps more authentic picture.

 

A.

 

, Swami Anand Nisarg

<swamiji_nisarg> wrote:

> Beloved Mary Ann,

>

> If you have read Pagel's "Gnostic Gospels" (have

> you?), then you would know that there is a REAL

> gnostic teaching, including many Gnostic Scriptures

> that survive today.

>

> The "nag hammadi" archive has about 50 gnostic

> scriptures! A very good indicator of their teachings

> and beliefs.

>

> And they are quite different from the "i am" new age

> nonsense that the author of the hidden gospel tries to

> pass as historically plausible (it isn't).

>

> So if you truly, HONESTLY want to look at the "hidden"

> teachings of Jesus, and your choices are:

> A) the real actual, surviving, gnostic gospels written

> in the 1st to 4th century CE

> B) rampant speculation and word games made up by a new

> age theosophist in 2002

>

> Which do you think is the more sincere, honest,

> truth-upholding choice?

>

> Love

> Swami

[Guest guest]

93

 

Mary, do U think that direct disciples of Jesus understood him

wrongly but some modern "new-age sufi" discovered original true

meaning of Jesus' message? Isn't that funny?

U may deepen Ur awareness without any misinterpretation of

christianity. What is the problem? There are so many independent and

authentic traditions like Zen, Kashiri Shaivism, Taoism, Madhyamaka-

buddhism etc. If Ur heart doesn't accept Jesus Christ as Ur personal

Lord and Savior, christianity is not for U. That's all. Just leave it

and honestly go into that tradition which "moves Ur heart".

"New-age" nonsense is indeed useless junk. Better to go into

authentic spiritual tradition, which are still many present of this

earth.

 

A.

 

, "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

wrote:

> Dear swamiji:

>

> My point isn't about historical accuracy, it's about deepening

> spiritual awareness. I am interested in what moves me in more

> life- and love- affirming ways. I feel moved by the author's work

in

> the book The Hidden Gospel, for any and all creative license he

> takes. BTW the author, Neil Douglas-Klotz, identifies as Sufi.

>

> The author of this book is not claiming that there are 10 stone

> tablets yet to be unearthed that contain his interpretations of

> Jesus' words as chiseled there by Jesus' own hand. He merely

> turns his interpretative skills in Aramaic to Christian scriptures

to

> open up the possible meanings there beyond the limited way the

> teachings have come down - the way that says Jesus is the only

> way. In my understanding from reading this book, the author

> doesn't agree that Jesus ever meant that, which is why he

> explored the Aramaic as he did.

>

> Cheers,

> Mary Ann

>

>

>

> , Swami Anand Nisarg

> <swamiji_nisarg> wrote:

> > Beloved Mary Ann,

> >

> > If you have read Pagel's "Gnostic Gospels" (have

> > you?), then you would know that there is a REAL

> > gnostic teaching, including many Gnostic Scriptures

> > that survive today.

> >

> > The "nag hammadi" archive has about 50 gnostic

> > scriptures! A very good indicator of their teachings

> > and beliefs.

> >

> > And they are quite different from the "i am" new age

> > nonsense that the author of the hidden gospel tries to

> > pass as historically plausible (it isn't).

> >

> > So if you truly, HONESTLY want to look at the "hidden"

> > teachings of Jesus, and your choices are:

> > A) the real actual, surviving, gnostic gospels written

> > in the 1st to 4th century CE

> > B) rampant speculation and word games made up by a new

> > age theosophist in 2002

> >

> > Which do you think is the more sincere, honest,

> > truth-upholding choice?

> >

> > Love

> > Swami

[Guest guest]

Arjuna,

 

I agree with you.

 

IMHO what seems to be missing in the Mary's approach is balance between

emotions and intellect.

On one hand, a system (religious or otherwise) must be flexible and adjust

to ever-changing environment.

On another hand, a human should realize that a system is there to help him

to transform himself, not the

other way around (thankfully there's enough systems to suit most any type of

the seeker).

 

Re-interpretation: "I'm uncomfortable with Christianity as it is, so

instead of either transforming myself

to become comfortable, or finding another system that I'm happy with - I

want to change/re-interpret

Christianity so that I can remain the same."

 

Regards,

 

Uri-David

 

 

 

 

Arjuna Taradasa [bhagatirtha]

Monday, April 12, 2004 02:13

Re: I am

 

 

93

 

Mary, do U think that direct disciples of Jesus understood him

wrongly but some modern "new-age sufi" discovered original true

meaning of Jesus' message? Isn't that funny?

U may deepen Ur awareness without any misinterpretation of

christianity. What is the problem? There are so many independent and

authentic traditions like Zen, Kashiri Shaivism, Taoism, Madhyamaka-

buddhism etc. If Ur heart doesn't accept Jesus Christ as Ur personal

Lord and Savior, christianity is not for U. That's all. Just leave it

and honestly go into that tradition which "moves Ur heart".

"New-age" nonsense is indeed useless junk. Better to go into

authentic spiritual tradition, which are still many present of this

earth.

 

A.

 

, "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

wrote:

> Dear swamiji:

>

> My point isn't about historical accuracy, it's about deepening

> spiritual awareness. I am interested in what moves me in more

> life- and love- affirming ways. I feel moved by the author's work

in

> the book The Hidden Gospel, for any and all creative license he

> takes. BTW the author, Neil Douglas-Klotz, identifies as Sufi.

>

> The author of this book is not claiming that there are 10 stone

> tablets yet to be unearthed that contain his interpretations of

> Jesus' words as chiseled there by Jesus' own hand. He merely

> turns his interpretative skills in Aramaic to Christian scriptures

to

> open up the possible meanings there beyond the limited way the

> teachings have come down - the way that says Jesus is the only

> way. In my understanding from reading this book, the author

> doesn't agree that Jesus ever meant that, which is why he

> explored the Aramaic as he did.

>

> Cheers,

> Mary Ann

>

>

>

> , Swami Anand Nisarg

> <swamiji_nisarg> wrote:

> > Beloved Mary Ann,

> >

> > If you have read Pagel's "Gnostic Gospels" (have

> > you?), then you would know that there is a REAL

> > gnostic teaching, including many Gnostic Scriptures

> > that survive today.

> >

> > The "nag hammadi" archive has about 50 gnostic

> > scriptures! A very good indicator of their teachings

> > and beliefs.

> >

> > And they are quite different from the "i am" new age

> > nonsense that the author of the hidden gospel tries to

> > pass as historically plausible (it isn't).

> >

> > So if you truly, HONESTLY want to look at the "hidden"

> > teachings of Jesus, and your choices are:

> > A) the real actual, surviving, gnostic gospels written

> > in the 1st to 4th century CE

> > B) rampant speculation and word games made up by a new

> > age theosophist in 2002

> >

> > Which do you think is the more sincere, honest,

> > truth-upholding choice?

> >

> > Love

> > Swami

 

 

 

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