Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 93 Could U plz tell where U met a description of BKali as "housholder deity"? It is interesting... To speak about art - it is mostly spoiled. Due to buddhist influence andsome other factors many iconographic images were altered totally. If U compare shastric descriptions with those "chitras" sold in India today, U will see nothing commom . I really don't like modern hindu iconography - it is 80% fake. However some murtis in temples are really good, especially in south India. A. , Jami Blakeley <jami108> wrote: > After spending the last four years trying to solve the > mystery of Bhadrakaalii, I have come to the conclusion > that there is great regional variation and that > dhyaana shloka descriptions in tantric texts such as > the tantrasaara do not necessarily correspond to Her > iconographic representations in temples and popular > devotional art. > > In some texts She is described as being a form of Kali > particularly suited to householder worship. In other > places, such as the Bhadrakaali Mahaatmya of Kerala, > She is described as being exceedingly fierce. > > Maybe the question is, "Which Bhadrakaali"? > > Jai Kaalii Maa! > --Aravind > > > --- Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > 93 Greetings! > > > > AFAIK "Shyama" is just another name of Dakshinakali > > (and not any > > special form). For example bengali text > > "Shyama-rahasya" deals with > > worship of Dakshinakalika. > > > > Bhadrakali is not "benevolent". Take a look at > > descriptions of this > > aspect of Devi in Shastras. Bhadrakali is connected > > to ferociuos > > (raudra) forms of Divinity like Pratyangira, > > Narasimha and > > Chhinnamasta... > > > > Sometimes i read that She is benevolent. Perhaps > > this view is based on > > translation of the word "bhadra". But i know not > > even one reason for > > such interpretation in Agamas. In one shrilankian > > temple there is > > murti of Kalika in similar to Tripurasundari form - > > She is called > > "Bhadrakali" locally. I have photo of that form, > > beautiful. But i > > guess that is NOT in fact Bhadrakali :-). > > > > A. > > > > > > , "Jay" > > <machilongo> wrote: > > > I am trying to find information on these aspects > > of Kali, Shyama and > > > Bhadrakali, from what little I have been able to > > find these are > > > considered benevolent and more auspicious aspects. > > Does anybody > > have > > > any more info or leads? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ > ph/print_splash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Arjuna, I will look up the textual reference to Bhadrakaalii as a "householder deity." I guess my perspectice is, with all respect, slightly different. I see a dynamic relationship between the Sanskritic textual tradition and expressions of popular religion. They are in a dialogue and transform each other, especially as regards Shaaktism. I also don't necessarily see popular religious expressions as somehow inferior to the textual tradition. Just my 2 cents. I don't want to offend anyone. Jai Kaalii Maa! --Aravind --- Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha wrote: > 93 > > Could U plz tell where U met a description of BKali > as "housholder > deity"? It is interesting... > To speak about art - it is mostly spoiled. Due to > buddhist influence > andsome other factors many iconographic images were > altered totally. > If U compare shastric descriptions with those > "chitras" sold in India > today, U will see nothing commom . > I really don't like modern hindu iconography - it is > 80% fake. However > some murtis in temples are really good, especially > in south India. > > A. > > , Jami Blakeley > <jami108> > wrote: > > After spending the last four years trying to solve > the > > mystery of Bhadrakaalii, I have come to the > conclusion > > that there is great regional variation and that > > dhyaana shloka descriptions in tantric texts such > as > > the tantrasaara do not necessarily correspond to > Her > > iconographic representations in temples and > popular > > devotional art. > > > > In some texts She is described as being a form of > Kali > > particularly suited to householder worship. In > other > > places, such as the Bhadrakaali Mahaatmya of > Kerala, > > She is described as being exceedingly fierce. > > > > Maybe the question is, "Which Bhadrakaali"? > > > > Jai Kaalii Maa! > > --Aravind > > > > > > --- Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > 93 Greetings! > > > > > > AFAIK "Shyama" is just another name of > Dakshinakali > > > (and not any > > > special form). For example bengali text > > > "Shyama-rahasya" deals with > > > worship of Dakshinakalika. > > > > > > Bhadrakali is not "benevolent". Take a look at > > > descriptions of this > > > aspect of Devi in Shastras. Bhadrakali is > connected > > > to ferociuos > > > (raudra) forms of Divinity like Pratyangira, > > > Narasimha and > > > Chhinnamasta... > > > > > > Sometimes i read that She is benevolent. Perhaps > > > this view is based on > > > translation of the word "bhadra". But i know not > > > even one reason for > > > such interpretation in Agamas. In one > shrilankian > > > temple there is > > > murti of Kalika in similar to Tripurasundari > form - > > > She is called > > > "Bhadrakali" locally. I have photo of that form, > > > beautiful. But i > > > guess that is NOT in fact Bhadrakali :-). > > > > > > A. > > > > > > > > > , "Jay" > > > <machilongo> wrote: > > > > I am trying to find information on these > aspects > > > of Kali, Shyama and > > > > Bhadrakali, from what little I have been able > to > > > find these are > > > > considered benevolent and more auspicious > aspects. > > > Does anybody > > > have > > > > any more info or leads? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for > 25¢ > > ph/print_splash > > Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ ph/print_splash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 93 Thank U, if U find any reference to named fact, plz mail me. Myself i regard folk tradition as inferior because it is the attitude of mystical tradition to outer one :-) (kaulika to laukika). That too simplified version "for dummies" of that outer tradition. However this doesn't mean that folk tradition is totally useless of not at all interesting. I'm interested in some aspects of folk shaktism as well. Just we have to give everything it's proper place. A. , Jami Blakeley <jami108> wrote: > Arjuna, I will look up the textual reference to > Bhadrakaalii as a "householder deity." > > I guess my perspectice is, with all respect, slightly > different. I see a dynamic relationship between the > Sanskritic textual tradition and expressions of > popular religion. They are in a dialogue and > transform each other, especially as regards Shaaktism. > > > I also don't necessarily see popular religious > expressions as somehow inferior to the textual > tradition. > > Just my 2 cents. I don't want to offend anyone. > > Jai Kaalii Maa! > --Aravind > > --- Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > 93 > > > > Could U plz tell where U met a description of BKali > > as "housholder > > deity"? It is interesting... > > To speak about art - it is mostly spoiled. Due to > > buddhist influence > > andsome other factors many iconographic images were > > altered totally. > > If U compare shastric descriptions with those > > "chitras" sold in India > > today, U will see nothing commom . > > I really don't like modern hindu iconography - it is > > 80% fake. However > > some murtis in temples are really good, especially > > in south India. > > > > A. > > > > , Jami Blakeley > > <jami108> > > wrote: > > > After spending the last four years trying to solve > > the > > > mystery of Bhadrakaalii, I have come to the > > conclusion > > > that there is great regional variation and that > > > dhyaana shloka descriptions in tantric texts such > > as > > > the tantrasaara do not necessarily correspond to > > Her > > > iconographic representations in temples and > > popular > > > devotional art. > > > > > > In some texts She is described as being a form of > > Kali > > > particularly suited to householder worship. In > > other > > > places, such as the Bhadrakaali Mahaatmya of > > Kerala, > > > She is described as being exceedingly fierce. > > > > > > Maybe the question is, "Which Bhadrakaali"? > > > > > > Jai Kaalii Maa! > > > --Aravind > > > > > > > > > --- Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > > 93 Greetings! > > > > > > > > AFAIK "Shyama" is just another name of > > Dakshinakali > > > > (and not any > > > > special form). For example bengali text > > > > "Shyama-rahasya" deals with > > > > worship of Dakshinakalika. > > > > > > > > Bhadrakali is not "benevolent". Take a look at > > > > descriptions of this > > > > aspect of Devi in Shastras. Bhadrakali is > > connected > > > > to ferociuos > > > > (raudra) forms of Divinity like Pratyangira, > > > > Narasimha and > > > > Chhinnamasta... > > > > > > > > Sometimes i read that She is benevolent. Perhaps > > > > this view is based on > > > > translation of the word "bhadra". But i know not > > > > even one reason for > > > > such interpretation in Agamas. In one > > shrilankian > > > > temple there is > > > > murti of Kalika in similar to Tripurasundari > > form - > > > > She is called > > > > "Bhadrakali" locally. I have photo of that form, > > > > beautiful. But i > > > > guess that is NOT in fact Bhadrakali :-). > > > > > > > > A. > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Jay" > > > > <machilongo> wrote: > > > > > I am trying to find information on these > > aspects > > > > of Kali, Shyama and > > > > > Bhadrakali, from what little I have been able > > to > > > > find these are > > > > > considered benevolent and more auspicious > > aspects. > > > > Does anybody > > > > have > > > > > any more info or leads? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for > > 25¢ > > > ph/print_splash > > > > > > > > > > > > Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ > ph/print_splash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Arjuna, Bhadrakaalii is referred to as the "auspicious" form of Kaalii in the glossary to volumes two and three of the "Awaken Children" series which documents the teachings of Shrii Maataa AmRtaanandamayii (Ammachi). She is referred to as a form of Kaalii particulary suited to worship by householders in the endnotes of "In Praise of the Goddess", a translation and commmentary on Devi Mahaatmyam by Devadatta Kali. I am in the process of getting Devadatta Kali's e-mail address so I can find out his source for the reference. Also, as regards Raksha Kaalii, it is mentioned in "The Gospel of Shri Ramakrishna" that Raksha Kaalii is the form of Devi invoked during times of disaster, i.e., floods, fires, epidemics, wars. Jai Kaalii Maa! --Aravind --- Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha wrote: > 93 > > Thank U, if U find any reference to named fact, plz > mail me. > > Myself i regard folk tradition as inferior because > it is the attitude > of mystical tradition to outer one :-) (kaulika to > laukika). That too > simplified version "for dummies" of that outer > tradition. > However this doesn't mean that folk tradition is > totally useless of > not at all interesting. I'm interested in some > aspects of folk > shaktism as well. Just we have to give everything > it's proper place. > > A. > > , Jami Blakeley > <jami108> > wrote: > > Arjuna, I will look up the textual reference to > > Bhadrakaalii as a "householder deity." > > > > I guess my perspectice is, with all respect, > slightly > > different. I see a dynamic relationship between > the > > Sanskritic textual tradition and expressions of > > popular religion. They are in a dialogue and > > transform each other, especially as regards > Shaaktism. > > > > > > I also don't necessarily see popular religious > > expressions as somehow inferior to the textual > > tradition. > > > > Just my 2 cents. I don't want to offend anyone. > > > > Jai Kaalii Maa! > > --Aravind > > > > --- Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > 93 > > > > > > Could U plz tell where U met a description of > BKali > > > as "housholder > > > deity"? It is interesting... > > > To speak about art - it is mostly spoiled. Due > to > > > buddhist influence > > > andsome other factors many iconographic images > were > > > altered totally. > > > If U compare shastric descriptions with those > > > "chitras" sold in India > > > today, U will see nothing commom . > > > I really don't like modern hindu iconography - > it is > > > 80% fake. However > > > some murtis in temples are really good, > especially > > > in south India. > > > > > > A. > > > > > > , Jami > Blakeley > > > <jami108> > > > wrote: > > > > After spending the last four years trying to > solve > > > the > > > > mystery of Bhadrakaalii, I have come to the > > > conclusion > > > > that there is great regional variation and > that > > > > dhyaana shloka descriptions in tantric texts > such > > > as > > > > the tantrasaara do not necessarily correspond > to > > > Her > > > > iconographic representations in temples and > > > popular > > > > devotional art. > > > > > > > > In some texts She is described as being a form > of > > > Kali > > > > particularly suited to householder worship. > In > > > other > > > > places, such as the Bhadrakaali Mahaatmya of > > > Kerala, > > > > She is described as being exceedingly fierce. > > > > > > > > Maybe the question is, "Which Bhadrakaali"? > > > > > > > > Jai Kaalii Maa! > > > > --Aravind > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > > > 93 Greetings! > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK "Shyama" is just another name of > > > Dakshinakali > > > > > (and not any > > > > > special form). For example bengali text > > > > > "Shyama-rahasya" deals with > > > > > worship of Dakshinakalika. > > > > > > > > > > Bhadrakali is not "benevolent". Take a look > at > > > > > descriptions of this > > > > > aspect of Devi in Shastras. Bhadrakali is > > > connected > > > > > to ferociuos > > > > > (raudra) forms of Divinity like Pratyangira, > > > > > Narasimha and > > > > > Chhinnamasta... > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes i read that She is benevolent. > Perhaps > > > > > this view is based on > > > > > translation of the word "bhadra". But i know > not > > > > > even one reason for > > > > > such interpretation in Agamas. In one > > > shrilankian > > > > > temple there is > > > > > murti of Kalika in similar to Tripurasundari > > > form - > > > > > She is called > > > > > "Bhadrakali" locally. I have photo of that > form, > > > > > beautiful. But i > > > > > guess that is NOT in fact Bhadrakali :-). > > > > > > > > > > A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Jay" > > > > > <machilongo> wrote: > > > > > > I am trying to find information on these > > > aspects > > > > > of Kali, Shyama and > > > > > > Bhadrakali, from what little I have been > able > > > to > > > > > find these are > > > > > > considered benevolent and more auspicious > > > aspects. > > > > > Does anybody > > > > > have > > > > > > any more info or leads? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints > for > > > 25¢ > > > > ph/print_splash > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for > 25¢ > > ph/print_splash > > Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ ph/print_splash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2004 Report Share Posted April 24, 2004 93 Thank U for this. I also read in some sourses these things, but have never seen original text that prove them. Thus i concider it to be a later twisting of image of Bhadra-Kali. I'm interested to know if there exist at least one reference to Tantras or Puranas that show Bhadra-Kali as "auspicious". About Raksha-Kali i told, it may be just an epithet of Daxina-Kali, meaning "Kali who protects". Again, i have not come across any agamic text that name Raksha-Kali as some special form or alike. BTW i guess this "name" might be simply "raksha kAli" (Kali, protect [us]!) :-))) A. , Jami Blakeley <jami108> wrote: > Arjuna, > > Bhadrakaalii is referred to as the "auspicious" form > of Kaalii in the glossary to volumes two and three of > the "Awaken Children" series which documents the > teachings of Shrii Maataa AmRtaanandamayii (Ammachi). > She is referred to as a form of Kaalii particulary > suited to worship by householders in the endnotes of > "In Praise of the Goddess", a translation and > commmentary on Devi Mahaatmyam by Devadatta Kali. I > am in the process of getting Devadatta Kali's e-mail > address so I can find out his source for the > reference. > > Also, as regards Raksha Kaalii, it is mentioned in > "The Gospel of Shri Ramakrishna" that Raksha Kaalii is > the form of Devi invoked during times of disaster, > i.e., floods, fires, epidemics, wars. > > Jai Kaalii Maa! > --Aravind > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 Namaste ji, You mentioned ; Iam in the process of getting Devadatta Kali's e-mail address so I can find out his source for the reference. I need to talk to him .Could I have the address as well? Also, as regards Raksha Kaalii, it is mentioned in"The Gospel of Shri Ramakrishna" that Raksha Kaalii isthe form of Devi invoked during times of disaster,i.e., floods, fires, epidemics, wars. Now this you got to be careful of . I rather follow Arjuna ( no more ji at the back due to his personal request-you got to give respect to his request right!!!) way of looking at the word as protect me . The reason is very simple the bengali version of Gospel was 5 volume but the Ramakrishna Math version is 2 volume .I beleive there was some editing done . When the english word of Divine Mother is used I wonder whether Bhagawan is referring to Durga Maa, Chandi Maa or his beloved Kali Maa.................. I think you read the part that he talks about Rakta Kali, Smashan Kali and few more Kali denomination but I would not be sure to say they are different images as well. By the way I have read somewhere that Devi Sarada Ma prayed to Smashan Kali and Vivekananda had siddhi of Maa kali sadhana too.........But again is very hard to define from english translation by Vivekananda monk who have different ishtha devata all together (they translated M's work as english gospel ) Jai Maa!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 Here is the complete quote: *** Keshab (with a smile): "Describe to us, sir, in how many ways Kaali the Divine Mother sports in the world. Master (with a smile): "Oh, She plays in different ways. It is She alone who is known as Mahaa-Kaali, Nitya-Kaali, Shmashaana-Kali, Rakshaa-Kaali, and Shyaama-Kaali. Mahaa-Kaali and Nitya-Kaali are mentioned in the Tantra philosophy. When there were neither the creation, nor the sun, the moon, the planets, and the earth, and when darkness was enveloped in darkness, the Mother, the Formless One, Mahaa-Kaali, the Great Power, was one with Mahaa-Kaala, the absolute. "Shyaama-Kaali has a somewhat tender aspect and is worshipped in the Hindu households. She is the Dispenser of boons and the Dispeller of fear. People worship Rakshaa-Kaali, the Protectress, in times of epidemic, famine, earthquake, drought, and flood. Shmashaana-Kali is the embodiment of the power of desctruction. She resides in the cremation ground, surrounded by corpses, jackals, and terrible female spirits. From Her mouth flows a stream of blood, from Her neck hangs a garland of human heads, and around her waist is a girdle made of human hands. "After the desctruction of the universe at the end of a great cycle, The Divine Mother garners the seeds for the next creation. She is like the elderly mistress of the house, who has a hotchpotch-pot in which she keeps different articles for household use." (All laugh). The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. Nikhilananda, Swami. Ramakrishna-Vivekananda Center. 1977. p 135. *** It is true that some material was removed from the Kathamrita in the editing of the Gospel. Also, the Gospel is in chronological order while the volumes of the Kathamrita are not. However, Swami Tyagananda in His essay "Kali's Child Revisited" says, "In my estimate, about 25 pages of the Kathamrita (which may roughly translate into about 18 pages of the Gospel) have been omitted. This may seem to be considerable, but here is the breakdown: almost half of the omitted material (12 pages, to be exact) consists of a brief biography of Ramakrishna (in the Gospel this is replaced by a longer biography) and a very detailed description of the Kali Temple at Dakshineswar. The remaining half of the omitted material is mostly either M's "reflections" (under the title sevak hridaye, literally "In the Heart of the Servant") or his poetic portrayal of the Ganges and the ambiance of Dakshineswar." > By the way I have read somewhere > that Devi Sarada Ma prayed to Smashan Kali This is true. The picture that She worshipped daily can be found at http://www.leeveal.com/pages/smashankali.htm It raises what is maybe one of the core questions of this discussion. This picture is clearly of "Shmashaana-Kaalii." I have not been able to determine, however, if Sri Sarada Devi Ma conceived of her as a different form of Kaalii from Bhavataarinii Maa who is worshipped at Dakshineshwar Temple. What exactly makes one form of Kaalii different from another? Is it her iconographic appearance? Will the same iconic representation if called by two different names of Kaalii manifest differently? For that matter, are the different forms of Kaalii always appearing differently? I always to learn as much about my Beautiful Mother Kaalii as I can. Ultimately, I think, as interesting as this is, it is the intensity of our devotion and surrender that Maa loves the most. Please remember that this sinner doesn't know anything, so please don't think any differently! Jai Kaalii Maa! --Aravind Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ ph/print_splash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 Namaste Jami, Thank you Jami for sharing the details. You mentioned ; What exactly makes one form of Kaalii different fromanother? Is it her iconographic appearance? Will thesame iconic representation if called by two differentnames of Kaalii manifest differently? For thatmatter, are the different forms of Kaalii always appearing differently? I beleive each of her manifestation has scriptural iconographical representation and these are usually shared in the devata dhyana mantra .The dhyan mantra are called in literal sense as meditation on your Chooosen ideal of worship. But they really share how the image should be made and each image representation is relevant to the specific spiritual tempremant or bhava of the sadhaka (spritual aspirant) It is just harder in case of Maa Kali for us to decipher which iconography represent which dhyana and japa mantra because the sadhaka and scriptures are not easily available I once went to Varanasi , Haridwar and Rishikesh just for this purpose .At Rishikesh I went to Gita Publishing house and at Varanasi I went to Chaukambha shop but the scriptures for Maa Kali was not available as well......................... She resides in the cremation ground,surrounded by corpses, jackals, and terrible female spirits. From Her mouth flows a stream of blood, fromHer neck hangs a garland of human heads, and aroundher waist is a girdle made of human hands. Yes Jami thank you ,however this is typical general application for Maa Kali and not nescesarily specific for Her specific image-Smasahan Kali . Anyway good observation. Just to share with you the name Bhavatarani was the name given by Bhagwan to Maa idol She had a different name earlier.Have you read about this .......................... As to the Gospel version, Ramakrishna Math Swamiji at Malaysia have done his translation of the entire 5 volume of the Gospel however it is in Tamil. Could you read tamil? If you do then I do not mind buying them and sending them over .................... I am reluctant to agree with the official statement by Swami Nikhilananda Maharaj. If you read Gospel for few times ( i read it more than 8 times and still loving it) some parts I feel are hanging as if censored abruptly.And M is a meticilious and precise writer could not have done that. Furthermore Bhagwan do not always observe calcutta mannerism as it is put by Swamiji translation. The reason work of writers like Christopher Esherwood and other more provocative writers on Sri Ramakrishna seems to show further investigative journalism was not in place for this saint who was born in our time.I seriously hope more research is done in Ramakrishna life as spiritual aspirant model than propagating "Ramakrishanism" as religious paradox. But then it is up to Math to take up this matter my concern is now on more learning on Maa Kali...................... I always to learn as much about my Beautiful MotherKaalii as I can. Ultimately, I think, as interestingas this is, it is the intensity of our devotion and surrender that Maa loves the most. Valid speculation on what Maa loves most , I beleives Her devotees (me included) do that most of the time . But it is always good to learn as much as you can about Her as well. I go picking the bits and pieces about Her wherever I go . I often hear intensity of devotion and surrender equated with love . But I do not hear people talk about how to cultivate intense devotion and how to cultivate complete surrender to Kali Maa. I am much more interested in that, any clue ? ( scripture refference would be good) Please remember that this sinner doesn't knowanything, so please don't think any differently! I have no time to judge anybody , all that is taking place is governed by Her . Yes I too do not know everything but that's ok we have a MOTHER who does.She is there so dont worry. And one more thing the only sin that you have is thinking you are sinner. You are HER innocent sweet child what is more to say ....................... Jai Maa!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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