Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Hi - the yoga I've been studying is Iyengar, and is based on Patanjali's teachings. At the beginning of every class, an invocation is made to Patanjali. I don't understand you saying that hatha yoga is not in accordance with Patanjali's sutras. What do you mean? What I'm saying is that they don't, in the hatha classes I've been in, delve into sutras like the one about the knowledge in dreams. They only focus on physical alignment. So the students are left to find other information on their own. And when I've taken classes that purportedly deal with the spiritual aspects that Iyengar leaves out, I find an absense of awareness of the importance of the physical aspects of hatha yoga to bring about alignment that allows for better focus in meditation. Interestingly, my current Iyengar instructor majored in Buddhist studies. I am not bringing this up to go on and on about a non-Shakta-related topic. Rather, since "shakti" is the Sanskrit word for energy, I feel that to recognize how energy communicates, awakens and transforms, and leads us to further growth and development IS related to Shakti Sadhana. For all I know, the reason I have been moved to look into any Buddhist stuff may be because of what my yoga teacher is communicating through her work, though she has said nothing at all about Buddhism in class. When I asked her recently if she had heard of Machig Lapdron, she said she met nuns from a Machig Lapdron nunnery (or whatever it's called) and heard their singing. I know that Hindus see Shakti as a being, a deity. To me, Shakti is energy, and I allow that energy into my life and let it move me as it does. However, since other group moderators and members seem uncomfortable, I'll stop talking about it for now. , "Detective_Mongo_Phd" <detective_mongo_phd@h...> wrote: > Yeah, it's a moot point. Mary Ann is talking about hatha yoga and Theravada/Sutrayana vipasshana type Buddhism, and I am talking about Raja yoga/Vajrayana tantra type Buddhism. I am telling her to check into the Vajrayana - the third turning of the Wheel of Dharma. Tantric Buddhism - Tibetan Buddhism. Not Tat Nick Hahn (I can't spell his name - sorry) He's a great saint. But he is of non-yogic Buddhist school. I am talking about the School which includes Machig Lapdron. > > Yoga is the source of mindfulness. Confused Buddhists think that mindfulness is to double check each and every thought against some chart. This isn't what mindfulness is about. Mindfulness is about living with awareness. One can't have awareness if they are perpetually zonked out on Xanax. There are means and there are means for creating and multiplying mindfulness. And yoga is the number one means. Not hatha yoga. Real yoga, like Patanjali and the tantric yogas. The most commonly known Buddhist tantra yoga is called, "The Six Yogas of Naropa." > > > > > [Mouse] Yoga without mindfulness?! Hmm... > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > -- > Links > > > / > > b.. > > > c.. Terms of Service. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Tantra is an all encompasing subject and as Mary ann says Shakti is Power. I get uncomfertable only when there is an assault on others' beliefs in a group about certain beliefs. So its OK. Mary Ann <maryann wrote: Hi - the yoga I've been studying is Iyengar, and is based on Patanjali's teachings. At the beginning of every class, an invocation is made to Patanjali. I don't understand you saying that hatha yoga is not in accordance with Patanjali's sutras. What do you mean? What I'm saying is that they don't, in the hatha classes I've been in, delve into sutras like the one about the knowledge in dreams. They only focus on physical alignment. So the students are left to find other information on their own. And when I've taken classes that purportedly deal with the spiritual aspects that Iyengar leaves out, I find an absense of awareness of the importance of the physical aspects of hatha yoga to bring about alignment that allows for better focus in meditation. Interestingly, my current Iyengar instructor majored in Buddhist studies. I am not bringing this up to go on and on about a non-Shakta-related topic. Rather, since "shakti" is the Sanskrit word for energy, I feel that to recognize how energy communicates, awakens and transforms, and leads us to further growth and development IS related to Shakti Sadhana. For all I know, the reason I have been moved to look into any Buddhist stuff may be because of what my yoga teacher is communicating through her work, though she has said nothing at all about Buddhism in class. When I asked her recently if she had heard of Machig Lapdron, she said she met nuns from a Machig Lapdron nunnery (or whatever it's called) and heard their singing. I know that Hindus see Shakti as a being, a deity. To me, Shakti is energy, and I allow that energy into my life and let it move me as it does. However, since other group moderators and members seem uncomfortable, I'll stop talking about it for now. , "Detective_Mongo_Phd" <detective_mongo_phd@h...> wrote: > Yeah, it's a moot point. Mary Ann is talking about hatha yoga and Theravada/Sutrayana vipasshana type Buddhism, and I am talking about Raja yoga/Vajrayana tantra type Buddhism. I am telling her to check into the Vajrayana - the third turning of the Wheel of Dharma. Tantric Buddhism - Tibetan Buddhism. Not Tat Nick Hahn (I can't spell his name - sorry) He's a great saint. But he is of non-yogic Buddhist school. I am talking about the School which includes Machig Lapdron. > > Yoga is the source of mindfulness. Confused Buddhists think that mindfulness is to double check each and every thought against some chart. This isn't what mindfulness is about. Mindfulness is about living with awareness. One can't have awareness if they are perpetually zonked out on Xanax. There are means and there are means for creating and multiplying mindfulness. And yoga is the number one means. Not hatha yoga. Real yoga, like Patanjali and the tantric yogas. The most commonly known Buddhist tantra yoga is called, "The Six Yogas of Naropa." > > > > > [Mouse] Yoga without mindfulness?! Hmm... > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > -- > Links > > > / > > b.. > > > c.. > > > > / Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Hi - the yoga I've been studying is Iyengar, and is based on Patanjali's teachings. At the beginning of every class, an invocation is made to Patanjali. I don't understand you saying that hatha yoga is not in accordance with Patanjali's sutras. What do you mean? Mary Ann, you both have the whole picture, and yet don't have the specifics. I never said that hatha yoga was not a part of Patanjali, and yet, Patanjali codified much more than mere physical postures like Iyengar. One can invoke Patanjali who was a great Shivaite before hatha yoga class but hatha yoga is more specifically based on the Hatha Yoga Pradipika of Svatmarama written in 1,500 AD. I have never met anyone who attained samadhi through hatha yoga. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just not a frequent occurance, as in one in 100,000 might go into samadhi in sahasrasanas by accident or something. Patanjali speaks of an 8-limbed yoga of which asana is merely 1 of the 8 limbs. To me, Shakti is energy, and I allow that energy into my life and let it move me as it does. Anyone who thinks Buddhism has no references to Shakti are completely ignorant of Buddhist Mahayoga methods. That's why I will continue to speak here freely about Buddhism whenever I please. At the heart of Kalachakra are the ten Shaktis. In a mandala at least as detailed as the Sri Chakra, in the final aperature are Kalachakra/Vishvamata yab/yum, and surrounded by an eight petaled lotus are the eight Shaktis. Two of the ten mentioned Shaktis are identical with Vishvamata, the highest view of Buddhist cognition of emptiness. Vishvamata is the visualized essence of the great Buddhist feminine deity Prajnaparamita, she who embodies the perfect enlightened Buddhist ideal. She also is one and the same as the highest Hindu Divine Feminine. How can there be two non-dual realities. All positions to the contrary are merely conceptual, and not realistic. Furthermore, in the Kalachakra mandalas are all the most well known Hindu deities as well, such as Vishnu, Lakshmi, Shiva, Ganesha, and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Hi - the yoga I've been studying is Iyengar, and is based on Patanjali's teachings. At the beginning of every class, an invocation is made to Patanjali. I don't understand you saying that hatha yoga is not in accordance with Patanjali's sutras. What do you mean? [Mouse] Hatha Yoga is a part of Patanjali's approach, first 4 limbs/steps of it. What I'm saying is that they don't, in the hatha classes I've been in, delve into sutras like the one about the knowledge in dreams. [Mouse] Very correct. What is called "Hatha classes" in the West, should be called "Asana class", because usually that's what they teach, with different degrees of proficiency. Some schools (Integral Yoga, Shivananda Yoga) add little bits of chanting, Pranayama and meditation, so the student can get a glimple and at least realize that it is there. Several schools/ashrams give an opportunity for the student to participate in Karma-yoga... They only focus on physical alignment. So the students are left to find other information on their own. [Mouse] Of course! That's what an asana class is about - how to do asanas correctly. There's a lot more to Hatha Yoga than this, and there's more to Yoga than Hatha. And when I've taken classes that purportedly deal with the spiritual aspects that Iyengar leaves out, I find an absense of awareness of the importance of the physical aspects of hatha yoga to bring about alignment that allows for better focus in meditation. [Mouse] It's because almost none of them is teaching true (i.e. complete) Hatha Yoga, let alone true Yoga - that must encompass aspects such as Yama/Niyama that take care of mental problems on conscious level, Kriyas that remove dirt from both physical and "thin" bodies, Asana that removes problems stuck in subconsciousness, Pranayama that establishes the bridge with our higher Self, Pratyahara that cuts off the noise which drowns the voice of the higher Self, Dharana that teaches us focussing on that voice, Dhyana that is actual effortless listening to that Voice, and finally Samadhi when we become that higher Self in our consciousness. ....Hindus see Shakti as a being, a deity. To me, Shakti is energy, and I allow that energy into my life and let it move me as it does. [Mouse] No! Shakti can be manifested, but in general, Hinduism believes in one God, everything else being manifestations and aspects - such as Trimurti (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva)... However, since other group moderators and members seem uncomfortable, I'll stop talking about it for now. [Mouse] I'm sure they don't mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Dear Mongo: You said: Anyone who thinks Buddhism has no references to Shakti are completely ignorant of Buddhist Mahayoga methods. ......... I did not say Buddhism is alien to Shakta philosophy nor did any one else for that matter. In fact Shaktism rejects nothing. Everything is inside that. But I will not say what Saladin (I think he is the one) said when he conquered Alexandria and burnt its great library. (He said if the books contain truth then it is in Koran so there is no use in keeping the books; if the knowledge in them is not in Koran, it cannot be true so burn them" *smile*. All I said was lets not have attacks on each other's beliefs. What you and Mary Ann say is not attacking anyone's beliefs but expounding a line of thought. so its OK as far as I am concerned because ultimatly it will come to Shakta philosophy. Detective_Mongo_Phd <detective_mongo_phd wrote: Hi - the yoga I've been studying is Iyengar, and is based on Patanjali's teachings. At the beginning of every class, an invocation is made to Patanjali. I don't understand you saying that hatha yoga is not in accordance with Patanjali's sutras. What do you mean? Mary Ann, you both have the whole picture, and yet don't have the specifics. I never said that hatha yoga was not a part of Patanjali, and yet, Patanjali codified much more than mere physical postures like Iyengar. One can invoke Patanjali who was a great Shivaite before hatha yoga class but hatha yoga is more specifically based on the Hatha Yoga Pradipika of Svatmarama written in 1,500 AD. I have never met anyone who attained samadhi through hatha yoga. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just not a frequent occurance, as in one in 100,000 might go into samadhi in sahasrasanas by accident or something. Patanjali speaks of an 8-limbed yoga of which asana is merely 1 of the 8 limbs. To me, Shakti is energy, and I allow that energy into my life and let it move me as it does. Anyone who thinks Buddhism has no references to Shakti are completely ignorant of Buddhist Mahayoga methods. That's why I will continue to speak here freely about Buddhism whenever I please. At the heart of Kalachakra are the ten Shaktis. In a mandala at least as detailed as the Sri Chakra, in the final aperature are Kalachakra/Vishvamata yab/yum, and surrounded by an eight petaled lotus are the eight Shaktis. Two of the ten mentioned Shaktis are identical with Vishvamata, the highest view of Buddhist cognition of emptiness. Vishvamata is the visualized essence of the great Buddhist feminine deity Prajnaparamita, she who embodies the perfect enlightened Buddhist ideal. She also is one and the same as the highest Hindu Divine Feminine. How can there be two non-dual realities. All positions to the contrary are merely conceptual, and not realistic. Furthermore, in the Kalachakra mandalas are all the most well known Hindu deities as well, such as Vishnu, Lakshmi, Shiva, Ganesha, and so on. / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Yeah, I'm basically talking about Western yoga class participants. I have never been to India (unfortunately) so I would be stupid to comment on this system as practiced there. I hear it's much easier to enter samadhi in India as well because it's more sattvic than elsewhere. - Mouse Tuesday, June 15, 2004 8:44 AM RE: Hatha Yoga/Patanjali; Respecting Shakti Sadhana I have never met anyone who attained samadhi through hatha yoga. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just not a frequent occurance, as in one in 100,000 might go into samadhi in sahasrasanas by accident or something. [Mouse] I have [met such people]. But they practice "Hatha Yoga" - not "Asana Yoga". 8-limbed yoga of which asana is merely 1 of the 8 limbs. [Mouse] Precisely. / b.. c.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Dear Mongo: You said: Anyone who thinks Buddhism has no references to Shakti are completely ignorant of Buddhist Mahayoga methods. ......... -----Mere rhetoric, as an opening for the rest of my diatribe. Not singling out anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 I read the Hatha Yoga Pradipika after taking a class by one of those instructors purportedly teaching the spiritual aspect(s) of yoga, and I did not find that text (or that teacher) particularly enlightening. His asana teaching lacked, well, teaching. I think he felt that the students there should have had a good grasp on asana by that time, so he was only going to discuss spiritual teachings and have us do asana in the context of that discussion. I felt at that time that even in classes which go into the spiritual aspects of yoga, attention to physical detail must be paid. Otherwise, there will be no ease and ability to go to higher levels. There is a "mudra" in the Hatha Yoga Pradipika that is a description of heterosexual intercourse (Vajroli), but because the text encourages the practictioner(s) to "draw up" on their sexual fluids (called "seminal fluid" in both men and women), it is seen as not being heterosexual intercourse (according to my Iyengar teacher). I thought that was false. If you don't want it to be heterosexual intercourse, don't bring the genitals of a man and a woman together in heterosexual intercourse. Otherwise, no matter what else you want to call it, that's what it is. (I'm referring to the English translation of the HYP by Brian Dana Akers.) , Mouse <uri@o...> wrote: > I have never met anyone who attained samadhi through hatha yoga. I'm not > saying that it's impossible, just not a frequent occurance, as in one in > 100,000 might go into samadhi in sahasrasanas by accident or something. > [Mouse] I have [met such people]. But they practice "Hatha Yoga" - not > "Asana Yoga". > > 8-limbed yoga of which asana is merely 1 of the 8 limbs. > [Mouse] Precisely. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 > Mary Ann, you both have the whole picture, and yet don't have the specifics. I never said that hatha yoga was not a part of Patanjali, and yet, Patanjali codified much more than mere physical postures like Iyengar. One can invoke Patanjali who was a great Shivaite before hatha yoga class but hatha yoga is more specifically based on the Hatha Yoga Pradipika of Svatmarama written in 1,500 AD. I have never met anyone who attained samadhi through hatha yoga. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just not a frequent occurance, as in one in 100,000 might go into samadhi in sahasrasanas by accident or something. Patanjali speaks of an 8-limbed yoga of which asana is merely 1 of the 8 limbs. > > To Hatha Yoga goes much earlier than the HYP. The earliest reference to yogasanas is in the Tirumantiram (circa 600BC), who also talks about ashtanga yoga (this is also the earliest work that deals with the "ashtanga yoga" of Patanjali). Yogasanas are very much a part of Patanjali yoga, though he did not discuss them. There are also the Yoga upanishads which may go back even earlier. Samadhi through Hatha yoga ?- the great hatha yogi and bhaktha Jnaneshwar affirms in the Jnaneshwari that Hatha is the quickest way to samadhi. This means asanas, mudras and bandhas have to be practiced 24 hours a day - this is not for everyone; conquest of sleep is the very first stage for a yogi. Of course only 1 in 100,000 will reach samadhi through any path. And adept hatha yogis dont advertise themselves, they practice in secrecy and may even deny that they practice yoga at all. -yogaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Why deny anything? More "don't ask, don't tell." Why the secrecy? Maybe it's more that there is no need to discuss it after awhile? , "childofdevi" <childofdevi> wrote: > > > Mary Ann, you both have the whole picture, and yet don't have the > specifics. I never said that hatha yoga was not a part of Patanjali, > and yet, Patanjali codified much more than mere physical postures > like Iyengar. One can invoke Patanjali who was a great Shivaite > before hatha yoga class but hatha yoga is more specifically based on > the Hatha Yoga Pradipika of Svatmarama written in 1,500 AD. I have > never met anyone who attained samadhi through hatha yoga. I'm not > saying that it's impossible, just not a frequent occurance, as in one > in 100,000 might go into samadhi in sahasrasanas by accident or > something. Patanjali speaks of an 8-limbed yoga of which asana is > merely 1 of the 8 limbs. > > > > To > > > Hatha Yoga goes much earlier than the HYP. The earliest reference to > yogasanas is in the Tirumantiram (circa 600BC), who also talks about > ashtanga yoga (this is also the earliest work that deals with > the "ashtanga yoga" of Patanjali). Yogasanas are very much a part of > Patanjali yoga, though he did not discuss them. There are also the > Yoga upanishads which may go back even earlier. > > Samadhi through Hatha yoga ?- the great hatha yogi and bhaktha > Jnaneshwar affirms in the Jnaneshwari that Hatha is the quickest way > to samadhi. This means asanas, mudras and bandhas have to be > practiced 24 hours a day - this is not for everyone; conquest of > sleep is the very first stage for a yogi. Of course only 1 in 100,000 > will reach samadhi through any path. And adept hatha yogis dont > advertise themselves, they practice in secrecy and may even deny that > they practice yoga at all. > > -yogaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Yeah, I'm basically talking about Western yoga class participants. [Mouse] It figures. :-) I hear it's much easier to enter samadhi in India as well because it's more sattvic than elsewhere. [Mouse] Don't know about that - but it is easier to find an authentic Teacher there (still possible here, just more difficult). But you kow the saying - "when the student is ready, the Teacher will come". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 I read the Hatha Yoga Pradipika after taking a class by one of those instructors purportedly teaching the spiritual aspect(s) of yoga, and I did not find that text (or that teacher) particularly enlightening. [Mouse] I find that most editions of this book are incomplete. More so, it is very difficult to glean useful information from such a book unless (a) it is published with commentaries and (b) is accompanied by a competent Teacher. I recommend Kaivalyadhama edition as the best and the only complete one that I'm aware of. I felt at that time that even in classes which go into the spiritual aspects of yoga, attention to physical detail must be paid. Otherwise, there will be no ease and ability to go to higher levels. [Mouse] I'm with you on this. There is a "mudra" in the Hatha Yoga Pradipika that is a description of heterosexual intercourse (Vajroli), [Mouse] Apparently our interpretations of Vajroli mudra differ a lot. Vajroli normally is done by one person, but can be performed during the intercourse (in addition to its "normal" practice). (I'm referring to the English translation of the HYP by Brian Dana Akers.) [Mouse] Again, I recommend the Kaivalyadhama edition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Thanks, Mouse. I appreciate the recommendation. The book I got was a super-cheap used book purchase on amazon.com - live and learn. , Mouse <uri@o...> wrote: > I read the Hatha Yoga Pradipika after taking a class by one of > those instructors purportedly teaching the spiritual aspect(s) of > yoga, and I did not find that text (or that teacher) particularly > enlightening. > [Mouse] I find that most editions of this book are incomplete. More so, it > is very difficult to glean useful information from such a book unless (a) it > is published with commentaries and (b) is accompanied by a competent > Teacher. I recommend Kaivalyadhama edition as the best and the only complete > one that I'm aware of. > > I felt at that time that even in classes which go into > the spiritual aspects of yoga, attention to physical detail must be > paid. Otherwise, there will be no ease and ability to go to higher > levels. > [Mouse] I'm with you on this. > > There is a "mudra" in the Hatha Yoga Pradipika that is a > description of heterosexual intercourse (Vajroli), > [Mouse] Apparently our interpretations of Vajroli mudra differ a lot. > Vajroli normally is done by one person, but can be performed during the > intercourse (in addition to its "normal" practice). > > (I'm referring > to the English translation of the HYP by Brian Dana Akers.) > > [Mouse] Again, I recommend the Kaivalyadhama edition. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Thanks, Mouse. I appreciate the recommendation. The book I got was a super-cheap used book purchase on amazon.com - live and learn. [Mouse] There are other good editions, such as Swami Satyananda's... However I stated my preference. , Mouse <uri@o...> wrote: > I read the Hatha Yoga Pradipika after taking a class by one of > those instructors purportedly teaching the spiritual aspect(s) of > yoga, and I did not find that text (or that teacher) particularly > enlightening. > [Mouse] I find that most editions of this book are incomplete. More so, it > is very difficult to glean useful information from such a book unless (a) it > is published with commentaries and (b) is accompanied by a competent > Teacher. I recommend Kaivalyadhama edition as the best and the only complete > one that I'm aware of. > > I felt at that time that even in classes which go into > the spiritual aspects of yoga, attention to physical detail must be > paid. Otherwise, there will be no ease and ability to go to higher > levels. > [Mouse] I'm with you on this. > > There is a "mudra" in the Hatha Yoga Pradipika that is a > description of heterosexual intercourse (Vajroli), > [Mouse] Apparently our interpretations of Vajroli mudra differ a lot. > Vajroli normally is done by one person, but can be performed during the > intercourse (in addition to its "normal" practice). > > (I'm referring > to the English translation of the HYP by Brian Dana Akers.) > > [Mouse] Again, I recommend the Kaivalyadhama edition. > > > <http://us.ard./SIG=1298g0kiq/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr oups/S=1705075991:HM/EXP=1087453412/A=2164330/R=0/SIG=11eamf8g4/*http://www. netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183350> click here <http://us.adserver./l?M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=groups/S= :HM/A=2164330/rand=132168066> _____ * / * <?subject=Un> * Terms of Service <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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