Kali, Oriya Hindus, and the Social Order

[Guest guest]

This post is long, but I hope anyone who reads it will find it

worthwhile. I recognize the Oriya Hindu ideas stated below as

being alive and well in the West, too. I am not picking on Hindus.

The following excerpts are from the chapter entitled Hierarchy

and Difference as Natural and Moral, excerpted from Power in its

Place, an essay by Usha Menon and Richard Shweder

published in the book Is the Goddess a Feminist? The Politics of

South Asian Goddesses.

 

This essay explains what I have been attempting to express that

has met with hostility or lack of understanding as to how it

relates to Shakti Sadhana. This essay shows that Eastern

spiritual philosophies are not free of the hierarchical domination

I feel is responsible for the ills of our world. This is why, for all

the benefit of Eastern spiritual teachings, including the presence

of the Divine Feminine, I feel what this essay describes should

not be the relationship between men and women. I feel that men

and women each need to be both sides of this equation within

themselves in order for us to grow. I think this old way prevents

further development by keeping us traveling in old worn grooves

rather than new places we have yet to go in our brains and the

world. For me, Shakti Sadhana involves imagining and creating

new realms, and recognizing the limits of the old.

 

" ... Temple town men and women believe that male and female

are the only two "jatis" or 'castes' in the world whose differences

can never be truly transcended.

 

....Men...have disproportionately more of the sattva guna. They

are thus regarded as 'purer,' and because of their relative purity

they enjoy greater privileges in some contexts.

Women...possess more gunas in absolute terms. Thus they

exercise more power and control than men in other contexts.

 

....Oriya Hindu husbands ...dominate their wives.... the Oriya

Hindu wife is extremely careful to display the utmost respect and

deference to her husband. ...In fact, the Oriya word for husband

is swami - meaning 'lord' - while the Oriya word for wife is stri or

'woman.' (My note: Husband is Wife's God, Wife is Husband's

Woman)

 

This acceptance of inequality by Oriya Hindu women is rooted in

their belief that they are continually in a state of relative physical

impurity. The fact of menstruation, a natural process that is

difficult to regulate trhough fasting or any other cultural means,

reinforces the belief in the natural inferiority of women.

....Alternatively stated, Oriya men do not need to exert brute force

to ensure this recognition of a hierarchical relationship between

men and women.

 

And it is here that the meanings the Oriya Hindus attach to the

icon of Kali become particularly relevant. (Note: the interviewers

asked the Oriya men and women to tell them about Kali from a

picture they showed them of Kali standing on Shiva who is lying

on the ground. Kali has her tongue out and her mouth and eyes

are open wide. Everyone shared fairly the same understanding

as expressed below.)

 

Men and women in Bhubaneswar say that the goddess was

morally justified in her murderous rampage because the male

gods had betrayed her, sending her in to do battle with the

buffalo demon, Mahishasura, without telling her that the boon the

demon had received from Brahma protected him from every

living being but a naked female and that to kill him, she would

have to strip. But they say that she also became calm, regained

her composure, not because of anything Shiva did but because

of a sense of her duty as a wife to Shiva, and as a mother to the

world. ...If she had wished, she could have crushed [shiva] and

gone on with her destruction. According to [the Oriya Hindus],

this story exemplifies voluntary subordination, a deliberate

exercise in self-control. It is such self-control that is culturally

valued and it is through self-control that women gain power.

 

....Oriya women and men see the goddess as full of power. But it

is a power that is reined in and held in check. It is a power that is

controlled from within. It is a power that is capable of destroying

men and all of creation. It is a power that is exercised most

responsibly by enduring the sacrifices and harships that are

necessary to keep the social order from tumbling down. Thus,

while it is conceivable that in Marin County, California, these

days, Kali may have become a symbol of feminism, among Oriya

Hindus in the temple town of Bhubaneswar, the Great Mother of

us all stands for neither gender equality nor for any

transformation of society."

[Guest guest]

Dear Mary Ann:

 

Thank you for posting this excerpt from Usha Menon's essay; I think

you'll find many of the issues raised there are explored in greater

depth (in Tamil rather than Oriya society; but the underlying themes

are the same) in "The Powers of Tamil Women" (Wadley, ed). I hope

you also had an opportunity to study the excerpt from Woodroffe's

essay on Power in the context of Shaktism, posted here a few days

ago (Message 10711), which would supply the corresponding spiritual

meanings.

 

*** This essay shows that Eastern spiritual philosophies are not

free of the hierarchical domination I feel is responsible for the

ills of our world. ***

 

I would say, rather, that it suggests modern social interpretations

of those philosophies have been tainted in some instances by

the "heirarchial domination" you reference (in addition to other

factors) in practice. However, it is probably an unfair and

inaccurate leap to assume that the philosophies themselves are the

source of the problem. In fact, much recent scholarship indicates

that these scriptures far predate most of these social practices --

many of which arose during late, lengthy periods of Muslim and

Christian rule. (See, for example, Shashi Kumar's "Indian Feminism

in Vedic Perspective," Journal of Studies on Ancient India, Vol. 1,

nos. 2-4 (1998), pp. 141-152, among many other modern studies).

 

*** I feel what this essay describes should not be the relationship

between men and women. ***

 

I can't imagine that many people would disagree with you on this.

 

*** I think this old way prevents further development by keeping us

traveling in old worn grooves rather than new places we have yet to

go in our brains and the world. ***

 

I'd again note that we need to be careful about the definition

of "old ways" and "new places." Also, the practices set out in the

essay "prevent further development" only if we buy into them, and

most practicing Shaktas -- at least in Tantric schools -- do not.

 

*** For me, Shakti Sadhana involves imagining and creating new

realms, and recognizing the limits of the old. ***

 

You are correct, but not in any loose sense of terminology;

the "imagining and creating of new realms" is certainly part of the

Shakti sadhana, as set out clearly in -- for example -- the Tripura

Rahasya. Sadhana itself (which means, literally, "spiritual

discipline") denotes the use of diverse technical practices which

can include mantra, yantra, hathayoga practices. It can (and should

really) also blend in the cultivation of bhakti and performance of

seva in furtherance of the philosophy. Rejecting or circumventing

the "hard work" of received Shaktism effectively shuts out the

aspirant from its benefits. Instead, a new religious practice and

philosophy is being created -- which may be very bad, or very good,

but which is emphatically not Shakti Sadhana in the millennia-old

sense of the term. Modern saints such as Sri Amritanananda Natha and

the increasingly popular Ammachi are indeed expanding and deepening

the possibilities of Shaktism -- but their innovations began only

after they had fully understood and experienced the wisdom of the

system as they received it.

 

*** According to [the Oriya Hindus], this story exemplifies

voluntary subordination, a deliberate exercise in self-control. It

is such self-control that is culturally valued and it is through

self-control that women gain power. ***

>From my limited understanding of the social structure, this seems a

quite accurate summary of the social practice. But it does not

reflect any scriptural or oral Shakta tradition that I am aware of.

 

*** Oriya women and men see the goddess as full of power. ***

 

Naturally. She IS Power.

 

*** But it is a power that is reined in and held in check. It is a

power that is controlled from within. ***

 

This is quite simply impossible in any theological sense. Again,

what is being described is a social custom quite divorced from any

scriptural or oral Shakta tradition that I am aware of.

 

*** It is a power that is capable of destroying men and all of

creation. ***

 

Not just capable; Shakti (Power) both creates and destroys all

manifest energy, matter, lifeforms, etc.

 

*** It is a power that is exercised most responsibly by enduring the

sacrifices and harships that are necessary to keep the social order

from tumbling down. ***

 

This statement clearly denotes the social context of the analysis.

 

*** among Oriya Hindus in the temple town of Bhubaneswar, the Great

Mother of us all stands for neither gender equality nor for any

transformation of society. ***

 

Any true understanding of Devi recognizes that She "stands for" no

discrete, transient social concept or ideal. She is every concept.

She is Everything. She is Power. She is God.

 

The question raised by your post, then, concerns not the nature of

Shaktism; but rather the proper ends toward which the Power She

grants us through Shaktism ought to be used.

 

Should we struggle for social equality? Sure! Is the domination of

genders and social classes by other genders and social classes a

good target in this struggle. Absolutely! But the power is gained

through Sadhana, not through the struggle itself (though one may

certainly consider the struggle as a kind of seva in furtherance of

sadhana if it works for them). I am not questioning your passion,

nor your purity of purpose, nor the praiseworthiness of your goal. I

am simply stepping in to ensure that spiritual terminology and

concepts are not blurred or loosely misused in a way that obscures

the goal rather than crystallizing it. Thanks for your thought-

provoking post.

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

Dear Mary Ann!

 

I was born in a Oriya Hindy Family and given the best of modern

education in schools run by missionaries both Baptists and Catholics.

Went in for highrest education possible and since childhood guided

and made spiritually aware by my Guru who advocated to me to read the

book Imitation Of Christ and Cloud Of Unknowing.

 

Do you believe everything that you read ? Articles are many about

everything possible but TRUTH is something else. Girls are adored and

cared for both by the poor and the rich alike in Orissa where the

maximum festivals are for girls all around the year. They are

pampered for they leave home when they get married.

 

There is always room for abuse in every culture but the little I have

seen the woman in every house in Orissa is in control and the centre

of attention and when she dies the household affection base crumbles.

I live in Camada and go back to Orissa often. I find the girls smart

intelligent holding good jobs and loving their husbands and in laws.

Tell me what is wrong with that picture. In fact I found beauty in

both their understanding and their surrender to duty. This is true in

all parts in India.

 

With much love in Christ

Ashoka

, "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

wrote:

> This post is long, but I hope anyone who reads it will find it

> worthwhile. I recognize the Oriya Hindu ideas stated below as

> being alive and well in the West, too. I am not picking on Hindus.

> The following excerpts are from the chapter entitled Hierarchy

> and Difference as Natural and Moral, excerpted from Power in its

> Place, an essay by Usha Menon and Richard Shweder

> published in the book Is the Goddess a Feminist? The Politics of

> South Asian Goddesses.

>

> This essay explains what I have been attempting to express that

> has met with hostility or lack of understanding as to how it

> relates to Shakti Sadhana. This essay shows that Eastern

> spiritual philosophies are not free of the hierarchical domination

> I feel is responsible for the ills of our world. This is why, for

all

> the benefit of Eastern spiritual teachings, including the presence

> of the Divine Feminine, I feel what this essay describes should

> not be the relationship between men and women. I feel that men

> and women each need to be both sides of this equation within

> themselves in order for us to grow. I think this old way prevents

> further development by keeping us traveling in old worn grooves

> rather than new places we have yet to go in our brains and the

> world. For me, Shakti Sadhana involves imagining and creating

> new realms, and recognizing the limits of the old.

>

> " ... Temple town men and women believe that male and female

> are the only two "jatis" or 'castes' in the world whose differences

> can never be truly transcended.

>

> ...Men...have disproportionately more of the sattva guna. They

> are thus regarded as 'purer,' and because of their relative purity

> they enjoy greater privileges in some contexts.

> Women...possess more gunas in absolute terms. Thus they

> exercise more power and control than men in other contexts.

>

> ...Oriya Hindu husbands ...dominate their wives.... the Oriya

> Hindu wife is extremely careful to display the utmost respect and

> deference to her husband. ...In fact, the Oriya word for husband

> is swami - meaning 'lord' - while the Oriya word for wife is stri

or

> 'woman.' (My note: Husband is Wife's God, Wife is Husband's

> Woman)

>

> This acceptance of inequality by Oriya Hindu women is rooted in

> their belief that they are continually in a state of relative

physical

> impurity. The fact of menstruation, a natural process that is

> difficult to regulate trhough fasting or any other cultural means,

> reinforces the belief in the natural inferiority of women.

> ...Alternatively stated, Oriya men do not need to exert brute force

> to ensure this recognition of a hierarchical relationship between

> men and women.

>

> And it is here that the meanings the Oriya Hindus attach to the

> icon of Kali become particularly relevant. (Note: the interviewers

> asked the Oriya men and women to tell them about Kali from a

> picture they showed them of Kali standing on Shiva who is lying

> on the ground. Kali has her tongue out and her mouth and eyes

> are open wide. Everyone shared fairly the same understanding

> as expressed below.)

>

> Men and women in Bhubaneswar say that the goddess was

> morally justified in her murderous rampage because the male

> gods had betrayed her, sending her in to do battle with the

> buffalo demon, Mahishasura, without telling her that the boon the

> demon had received from Brahma protected him from every

> living being but a naked female and that to kill him, she would

> have to strip. But they say that she also became calm, regained

> her composure, not because of anything Shiva did but because

> of a sense of her duty as a wife to Shiva, and as a mother to the

> world. ...If she had wished, she could have crushed [shiva] and

> gone on with her destruction. According to [the Oriya Hindus],

> this story exemplifies voluntary subordination, a deliberate

> exercise in self-control. It is such self-control that is

culturally

> valued and it is through self-control that women gain power.

>

> ...Oriya women and men see the goddess as full of power. But it

> is a power that is reined in and held in check. It is a power that

is

> controlled from within. It is a power that is capable of destroying

> men and all of creation. It is a power that is exercised most

> responsibly by enduring the sacrifices and harships that are

> necessary to keep the social order from tumbling down. Thus,

> while it is conceivable that in Marin County, California, these

> days, Kali may have become a symbol of feminism, among Oriya

> Hindus in the temple town of Bhubaneswar, the Great Mother of

> us all stands for neither gender equality nor for any

> transformation of society."

[Guest guest]

Dear Devi Bhakta:

 

Thank you for your attention and comments on my post. There

was also a reference in this essay to another essay called The

Auspicious Married Woman, in which the statement was made:

"...for Hindus power lies in subordination." This subordination is

that between guru and disciple, too, and that is certainly tradition

in Hinduism.

 

I did read your post from Woodruffe, but I did not feel it

addressed what I am talking about. I would say my concern isn't

only what we do with the power, but how we generate or call the

power into being. Hence, why I commented on the KS as I did. I

think why Amma appeals to me is that she says we each and all

need to return to childlike innocence and receptivity. That is

different from weilding swords, imagery of coitus, and the goal of

becoming "master of the Cosmos."

 

There is also Jillellamudi Mother, who was a child when her

spiritual greatness was recognized. As a child, she did not read

every book first, but had knowledge within. I guess what I'm

saying is, it's not necessary to follow all the rituals and practices

in the "Shatism book" to become enlightened or to allow Shakti

to transform you. In fact, I think it is often the case that we are

born with awareness of the Divine, and the way we are taught,

especially when taught scriptures, obscures our true connection

with the Divine.

 

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> Dear Mary Ann:

>

> Thank you for posting this excerpt from Usha Menon's essay; I

think

> you'll find many of the issues raised there are explored in

greater

> depth (in Tamil rather than Oriya society; but the underlying

themes

> are the same) in "The Powers of Tamil Women" (Wadley, ed). I

hope

> you also had an opportunity to study the excerpt from

Woodroffe's

> essay on Power in the context of Shaktism, posted here a few

days

> ago (Message 10711), which would supply the corresponding

spiritual

> meanings.

>

> *** This essay shows that Eastern spiritual philosophies are

not

> free of the hierarchical domination I feel is responsible for the

> ills of our world. ***

>

> I would say, rather, that it suggests modern social

interpretations

> of those philosophies have been tainted in some instances by

> the "heirarchial domination" you reference (in addition to other

> factors) in practice. However, it is probably an unfair and

> inaccurate leap to assume that the philosophies themselves

are the

> source of the problem. In fact, much recent scholarship

indicates

> that these scriptures far predate most of these social practices

--

> many of which arose during late, lengthy periods of Muslim

and

> Christian rule. (See, for example, Shashi Kumar's "Indian

Feminism

> in Vedic Perspective," Journal of Studies on Ancient India, Vol.

1,

> nos. 2-4 (1998), pp. 141-152, among many other modern

studies).

>

> *** I feel what this essay describes should not be the

relationship

> between men and women. ***

>

> I can't imagine that many people would disagree with you on

this.

>

> *** I think this old way prevents further development by keeping

us

> traveling in old worn grooves rather than new places we have

yet to

> go in our brains and the world. ***

>

> I'd again note that we need to be careful about the definition

> of "old ways" and "new places." Also, the practices set out in

the

> essay "prevent further development" only if we buy into them,

and

> most practicing Shaktas -- at least in Tantric schools -- do not.

>

> *** For me, Shakti Sadhana involves imagining and creating

new

> realms, and recognizing the limits of the old. ***

>

> You are correct, but not in any loose sense of terminology;

> the "imagining and creating of new realms" is certainly part of

the

> Shakti sadhana, as set out clearly in -- for example -- the

Tripura

> Rahasya. Sadhana itself (which means, literally, "spiritual

> discipline") denotes the use of diverse technical practices

which

> can include mantra, yantra, hathayoga practices. It can (and

should

> really) also blend in the cultivation of bhakti and performance of

> seva in furtherance of the philosophy. Rejecting or

circumventing

> the "hard work" of received Shaktism effectively shuts out the

> aspirant from its benefits. Instead, a new religious practice and

> philosophy is being created -- which may be very bad, or very

good,

> but which is emphatically not Shakti Sadhana in the

millennia-old

> sense of the term. Modern saints such as Sri Amritanananda

Natha and

> the increasingly popular Ammachi are indeed expanding and

deepening

> the possibilities of Shaktism -- but their innovations began only

> after they had fully understood and experienced the wisdom of

the

> system as they received it.

>

> *** According to [the Oriya Hindus], this story exemplifies

> voluntary subordination, a deliberate exercise in self-control. It

> is such self-control that is culturally valued and it is through

> self-control that women gain power. ***

>

> From my limited understanding of the social structure, this

seems a

> quite accurate summary of the social practice. But it does not

> reflect any scriptural or oral Shakta tradition that I am aware of.

>

> *** Oriya women and men see the goddess as full of power.

***

>

> Naturally. She IS Power.

>

> *** But it is a power that is reined in and held in check. It is a

> power that is controlled from within. ***

>

> This is quite simply impossible in any theological sense.

Again,

> what is being described is a social custom quite divorced from

any

> scriptural or oral Shakta tradition that I am aware of.

>

> *** It is a power that is capable of destroying men and all of

> creation. ***

>

> Not just capable; Shakti (Power) both creates and destroys all

> manifest energy, matter, lifeforms, etc.

>

> *** It is a power that is exercised most responsibly by enduring

the

> sacrifices and harships that are necessary to keep the social

order

> from tumbling down. ***

>

> This statement clearly denotes the social context of the

analysis.

>

> *** among Oriya Hindus in the temple town of Bhubaneswar,

the Great

> Mother of us all stands for neither gender equality nor for any

> transformation of society. ***

>

> Any true understanding of Devi recognizes that She "stands for"

no

> discrete, transient social concept or ideal. She is every

concept.

> She is Everything. She is Power. She is God.

>

> The question raised by your post, then, concerns not the nature

of

> Shaktism; but rather the proper ends toward which the Power

She

> grants us through Shaktism ought to be used.

>

> Should we struggle for social equality? Sure! Is the domination

of

> genders and social classes by other genders and social

classes a

> good target in this struggle. Absolutely! But the power is gained

> through Sadhana, not through the struggle itself (though one

may

> certainly consider the struggle as a kind of seva in furtherance

of

> sadhana if it works for them). I am not questioning your

passion,

> nor your purity of purpose, nor the praiseworthiness of your

goal. I

> am simply stepping in to ensure that spiritual terminology and

> concepts are not blurred or loosely misused in a way that

obscures

> the goal rather than crystallizing it. Thanks for your thought-

> provoking post.

>

> Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

Dear Mary Ann:

 

I appreciate your sharing your opinions on this topic.

 

*** the statement was made: "...for Hindus power lies in

subordination." This subordination is that between guru and

disciple, too, and that is certainly tradition in Hinduism. ***

 

Yes, I believe this is accurate in many cases.

 

*** I did read your post from Woodroffe, but I did not feel it

addressed what I am talking about. ***

 

My apologies; I thought that it did.

 

*** what I'm saying is, it's not necessary to follow all the rituals

and practices in the "Shaktism book" to become enlightened or to

allow Shakti to transform you. ***

 

Maybe so. That is not my understanding, but I am no expert.

 

*** In fact, I think it is often the case that we are born with

awareness of the Divine ***

 

I agree.

 

*** the way we are taught, especially when taught scriptures,

obscures our true connection with the Divine. ***

 

Sometimes, but sometimes it clarifies. It depends. Dogma of any kind

can obscure. But when a map is laid out (as in the countless

Tantras) saying, "Here's a technique many have followed with

success. Try it and see if it works for you" -- there is really

nothing being taught in the way of theology or philosophy. The

exhortation is not "Believe this," it's "Experience it for yourself,

then decide."

 

So the only response really required from us is either "yes, I will

try it," or "no, I will not try it." As a personal response, I

happen to say yes. But I will steadfastly defend your or anyone

else's right to say no.

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

, "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

wrote:

> There is also Jillellamudi Mother, who was a child when her

> spiritual greatness was recognized. As a child, she did not read

> every book first, but had knowledge within. I guess what I'm

> saying is, it's not necessary to follow all the rituals and

practices

> in the "Shatism book" to become enlightened or to allow Shakti

> to transform you. In fact, I think it is often the case that we

are

> born with awareness of the Divine, and the way we are taught,

> especially when taught scriptures, obscures our true connection

> with the Divine.

 

Every one needs "Shaktism book" to do Shakti Sadhana. By book I mean

the instructions(which are actually from Tantras etc) that Guru

gives in the rituals and practices.

 

Jillellamudi mother also needs the book. Only that, she followed the

book in her previous life which is the reason for her awareness of

Devi even as a child in this life without need for additional

practice now. The Bhagavadgita says this.

 

As for your the extract from that essay, Devi Bhakta already

answered it. Those are village stories. No Shakta Sadhaka holds such

views. The flaw is that these people travel to India a couple of

times and think they know each and every aspect of the society and

present those views held by an uninfomed minority as the opinion of

a whole society or a spiritual tradition.

The views you mentioned, as DB says cannot be found in any oral

Shakta tradition.

 

sa.

[Guest guest]

Dear Ashoka:

 

I am not denying your experience, but I don't see how your post

conflicts with what I posted. The fact that you also have had Baptist

and Catholic teachings and that they support the same understandings

of women as holding the family together, having jobs, etc. completely

harmonizes with what the essay I posted was about.

 

, "Ashoka " <ashoka_h@h...>

wrote:

> Dear Mary Ann!

>

> I was born in a Oriya Hindy Family and given the best of modern

> education in schools run by missionaries both Baptists and

Catholics.

> Went in for highrest education possible and since childhood guided

> and made spiritually aware by my Guru who advocated to me to read

the

> book Imitation Of Christ and Cloud Of Unknowing.

>

> Do you believe everything that you read ? Articles are many about

> everything possible but TRUTH is something else. Girls are adored

and

> cared for both by the poor and the rich alike in Orissa where the

> maximum festivals are for girls all around the year. They are

> pampered for they leave home when they get married.

>

> There is always room for abuse in every culture but the little I

have

> seen the woman in every house in Orissa is in control and the

centre

> of attention and when she dies the household affection base

crumbles.

> I live in Camada and go back to Orissa often. I find the girls

smart

> intelligent holding good jobs and loving their husbands and in

laws.

> Tell me what is wrong with that picture. In fact I found beauty in

> both their understanding and their surrender to duty. This is true

in

> all parts in India.

>

> With much love in Christ

> Ashoka

> , "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

> wrote:

> > This post is long, but I hope anyone who reads it will find it

> > worthwhile. I recognize the Oriya Hindu ideas stated below as

> > being alive and well in the West, too. I am not picking on

Hindus.

> > The following excerpts are from the chapter entitled Hierarchy

> > and Difference as Natural and Moral, excerpted from Power in its

> > Place, an essay by Usha Menon and Richard Shweder

> > published in the book Is the Goddess a Feminist? The Politics of

> > South Asian Goddesses.

> >

> > This essay explains what I have been attempting to express that

> > has met with hostility or lack of understanding as to how it

> > relates to Shakti Sadhana. This essay shows that Eastern

> > spiritual philosophies are not free of the hierarchical

domination

> > I feel is responsible for the ills of our world. This is why, for

> all

> > the benefit of Eastern spiritual teachings, including the

presence

> > of the Divine Feminine, I feel what this essay describes should

> > not be the relationship between men and women. I feel that men

> > and women each need to be both sides of this equation within

> > themselves in order for us to grow. I think this old way prevents

> > further development by keeping us traveling in old worn grooves

> > rather than new places we have yet to go in our brains and the

> > world. For me, Shakti Sadhana involves imagining and creating

> > new realms, and recognizing the limits of the old.

> >

> > " ... Temple town men and women believe that male and female

> > are the only two "jatis" or 'castes' in the world whose

differences

> > can never be truly transcended.

> >

> > ...Men...have disproportionately more of the sattva guna. They

> > are thus regarded as 'purer,' and because of their relative

purity

> > they enjoy greater privileges in some contexts.

> > Women...possess more gunas in absolute terms. Thus they

> > exercise more power and control than men in other contexts.

> >

> > ...Oriya Hindu husbands ...dominate their wives.... the Oriya

> > Hindu wife is extremely careful to display the utmost respect and

> > deference to her husband. ...In fact, the Oriya word for husband

> > is swami - meaning 'lord' - while the Oriya word for wife is stri

> or

> > 'woman.' (My note: Husband is Wife's God, Wife is Husband's

> > Woman)

> >

> > This acceptance of inequality by Oriya Hindu women is rooted in

> > their belief that they are continually in a state of relative

> physical

> > impurity. The fact of menstruation, a natural process that is

> > difficult to regulate trhough fasting or any other cultural

means,

> > reinforces the belief in the natural inferiority of women.

> > ...Alternatively stated, Oriya men do not need to exert brute

force

> > to ensure this recognition of a hierarchical relationship between

> > men and women.

> >

> > And it is here that the meanings the Oriya Hindus attach to the

> > icon of Kali become particularly relevant. (Note: the

interviewers

> > asked the Oriya men and women to tell them about Kali from a

> > picture they showed them of Kali standing on Shiva who is lying

> > on the ground. Kali has her tongue out and her mouth and eyes

> > are open wide. Everyone shared fairly the same understanding

> > as expressed below.)

> >

> > Men and women in Bhubaneswar say that the goddess was

> > morally justified in her murderous rampage because the male

> > gods had betrayed her, sending her in to do battle with the

> > buffalo demon, Mahishasura, without telling her that the boon the

> > demon had received from Brahma protected him from every

> > living being but a naked female and that to kill him, she would

> > have to strip. But they say that she also became calm, regained

> > her composure, not because of anything Shiva did but because

> > of a sense of her duty as a wife to Shiva, and as a mother to the

> > world. ...If she had wished, she could have crushed [shiva] and

> > gone on with her destruction. According to [the Oriya Hindus],

> > this story exemplifies voluntary subordination, a deliberate

> > exercise in self-control. It is such self-control that is

> culturally

> > valued and it is through self-control that women gain power.

> >

> > ...Oriya women and men see the goddess as full of power. But it

> > is a power that is reined in and held in check. It is a power

that

> is

> > controlled from within. It is a power that is capable of

destroying

> > men and all of creation. It is a power that is exercised most

> > responsibly by enduring the sacrifices and harships that are

> > necessary to keep the social order from tumbling down. Thus,

> > while it is conceivable that in Marin County, California, these

> > days, Kali may have become a symbol of feminism, among Oriya

> > Hindus in the temple town of Bhubaneswar, the Great Mother of

> > us all stands for neither gender equality nor for any

> > transformation of society."

[Guest guest]

But DB, you did not address this one point: "I would say my concern

isn't only what we do with the power, but how we generate or call the

power into being." And that is the point at which I feel it is

valuable to observe, and where there is room for change - going

beyond scriptures, even, the same way the Bible is seen to be

outdated in some respects....

 

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> Dear Mary Ann:

>

> I appreciate your sharing your opinions on this topic.

>

> *** the statement was made: "...for Hindus power lies in

> subordination." This subordination is that between guru and

> disciple, too, and that is certainly tradition in Hinduism. ***

>

> Yes, I believe this is accurate in many cases.

>

> *** I did read your post from Woodroffe, but I did not feel it

> addressed what I am talking about. ***

>

> My apologies; I thought that it did.

>

> *** what I'm saying is, it's not necessary to follow all the

rituals

> and practices in the "Shaktism book" to become enlightened or to

> allow Shakti to transform you. ***

>

> Maybe so. That is not my understanding, but I am no expert.

>

> *** In fact, I think it is often the case that we are born with

> awareness of the Divine ***

>

> I agree.

>

> *** the way we are taught, especially when taught scriptures,

> obscures our true connection with the Divine. ***

>

> Sometimes, but sometimes it clarifies. It depends. Dogma of any

kind

> can obscure. But when a map is laid out (as in the countless

> Tantras) saying, "Here's a technique many have followed with

> success. Try it and see if it works for you" -- there is really

> nothing being taught in the way of theology or philosophy. The

> exhortation is not "Believe this," it's "Experience it for

yourself,

> then decide."

>

> So the only response really required from us is either "yes, I will

> try it," or "no, I will not try it." As a personal response, I

> happen to say yes. But I will steadfastly defend your or anyone

> else's right to say no.

>

> Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

Dear Satish:

 

You posted before that in traditional or Brahmanical teachings there

is a 3 day period (menstruation) during which woman is considered

unclean or not to go to temple, didn't you? Such teachings cause

people to feel certain ways and traditions are established around

these teachings that can be limiting for humanity (as I see it). It

is how the scriptures underlie our society, why there really isn't

separation between church and state and culture.

 

There is also the collective unconscious as far as how a child can

know so much when born. That would incorporate knowledge transmitted

through human connection, not just through books.

 

 

, "Satish Arigela"

<satisharigela> wrote:

> , "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

> wrote:

> > There is also Jillellamudi Mother, who was a child when her

> > spiritual greatness was recognized. As a child, she did not read

> > every book first, but had knowledge within. I guess what I'm

> > saying is, it's not necessary to follow all the rituals and

> practices

> > in the "Shatism book" to become enlightened or to allow Shakti

> > to transform you. In fact, I think it is often the case that we

> are

> > born with awareness of the Divine, and the way we are taught,

> > especially when taught scriptures, obscures our true connection

> > with the Divine.

>

> Every one needs "Shaktism book" to do Shakti Sadhana. By book I

mean

> the instructions(which are actually from Tantras etc) that Guru

> gives in the rituals and practices.

>

> Jillellamudi mother also needs the book. Only that, she followed

the

> book in her previous life which is the reason for her awareness of

> Devi even as a child in this life without need for additional

> practice now. The Bhagavadgita says this.

>

> As for your the extract from that essay, Devi Bhakta already

> answered it. Those are village stories. No Shakta Sadhaka holds

such

> views. The flaw is that these people travel to India a couple of

> times and think they know each and every aspect of the society and

> present those views held by an uninfomed minority as the opinion of

> a whole society or a spiritual tradition.

> The views you mentioned, as DB says cannot be found in any oral

> Shakta tradition.

>

> sa.

[Guest guest]

dear shakti sadhana members,

i am looking fo a good book in sanskrit/hindi script

on srividya. this book should inlude all the ritual

for a sri vidya upasak. there is a book by srividya

organisation in new york which is a sister

organisation of that run by amritananda saraswati but

it is in english and tamil. on enquiry they told some

months ago that hindi version is ready but till today

it is not on the web(www.srividya.org). can anny

learned member suggest me a basic ritual boook. i

would also like to know what are the other books on

srividya which i should keep in the library i.e. the

classical sources on srividay and if possible where to

get them.

my level---i started srividya sadhna a year ago and

had beeen just doing the the chakra meditaion by

amritananda, lalita sahranama, lalita trishati,

khadgama, imean the things which are on the web of

ww.vi1.org. but they dod not give the rituals to be

followed. now i think i should move on to a little

advanced stage by going through books. and not only

rituals but history of srividya etc. that is why i

wrote this mail. i hope learned members will reply.

JP

 

--- Mary Ann <maryann wrote:

> Dear Devi Bhakta:

>

> Thank you for your attention and comments on my

> post. There

> was also a reference in this essay to another essay

> called The

> Auspicious Married Woman, in which the statement was

> made:

> "...for Hindus power lies in subordination." This

> subordination is

> that between guru and disciple, too, and that is

> certainly tradition

> in Hinduism.

>

> I did read your post from Woodruffe, but I did not

> feel it

> addressed what I am talking about. I would say my

> concern isn't

> only what we do with the power, but how we generate

> or call the

> power into being. Hence, why I commented on the KS

> as I did. I

> think why Amma appeals to me is that she says we

> each and all

> need to return to childlike innocence and

> receptivity. That is

> different from weilding swords, imagery of coitus,

> and the goal of

> becoming "master of the Cosmos."

>

> There is also Jillellamudi Mother, who was a child

> when her

> spiritual greatness was recognized. As a child, she

> did not read

> every book first, but had knowledge within. I guess

> what I'm

> saying is, it's not necessary to follow all the

> rituals and practices

> in the "Shatism book" to become enlightened or to

> allow Shakti

> to transform you. In fact, I think it is often the

> case that we are

> born with awareness of the Divine, and the way we

> are taught,

> especially when taught scriptures, obscures our

> true connection

> with the Divine.

>

> , "Devi Bhakta"

>

> <devi_bhakta> wrote:

> > Dear Mary Ann:

> >

> > Thank you for posting this excerpt from Usha

> Menon's essay; I

> think

> > you'll find many of the issues raised there are

> explored in

> greater

> > depth (in Tamil rather than Oriya society; but the

> underlying

> themes

> > are the same) in "The Powers of Tamil Women"

> (Wadley, ed). I

> hope

> > you also had an opportunity to study the excerpt

> from

> Woodroffe's

> > essay on Power in the context of Shaktism, posted

> here a few

> days

> > ago (Message 10711), which would supply the

> corresponding

> spiritual

> > meanings.

> >

> > *** This essay shows that Eastern spiritual

> philosophies are

> not

> > free of the hierarchical domination I feel is

> responsible for the

> > ills of our world. ***

> >

> > I would say, rather, that it suggests modern

> social

> interpretations

> > of those philosophies have been tainted in some

> instances by

> > the "heirarchial domination" you reference (in

> addition to other

> > factors) in practice. However, it is probably an

> unfair and

> > inaccurate leap to assume that the philosophies

> themselves

> are the

> > source of the problem. In fact, much recent

> scholarship

> indicates

> > that these scriptures far predate most of these

> social practices

> --

> > many of which arose during late, lengthy periods

> of Muslim

> and

> > Christian rule. (See, for example, Shashi Kumar's

> "Indian

> Feminism

> > in Vedic Perspective," Journal of Studies on

> Ancient India, Vol.

> 1,

> > nos. 2-4 (1998), pp. 141-152, among many other

> modern

> studies).

> >

> > *** I feel what this essay describes should not be

> the

> relationship

> > between men and women. ***

> >

> > I can't imagine that many people would disagree

> with you on

> this.

> >

> > *** I think this old way prevents further

> development by keeping

> us

> > traveling in old worn grooves rather than new

> places we have

> yet to

> > go in our brains and the world. ***

> >

> > I'd again note that we need to be careful about

> the definition

> > of "old ways" and "new places." Also, the

> practices set out in

> the

> > essay "prevent further development" only if we buy

> into them,

> and

> > most practicing Shaktas -- at least in Tantric

> schools -- do not.

> >

> > *** For me, Shakti Sadhana involves imagining and

> creating

> new

> > realms, and recognizing the limits of the old. ***

> >

> > You are correct, but not in any loose sense of

> terminology;

> > the "imagining and creating of new realms" is

> certainly part of

> the

> > Shakti sadhana, as set out clearly in -- for

> example -- the

> Tripura

> > Rahasya. Sadhana itself (which means, literally,

> "spiritual

> > discipline") denotes the use of diverse technical

> practices

> which

> > can include mantra, yantra, hathayoga practices.

> It can (and

> should

> > really) also blend in the cultivation of bhakti

> and performance of

> > seva in furtherance of the philosophy. Rejecting

> or

> circumventing

> > the "hard work" of received Shaktism effectively

> shuts out the

> > aspirant from its benefits. Instead, a new

> religious practice and

> > philosophy is being created -- which may be very

> bad, or very

> good,

> > but which is emphatically not Shakti Sadhana in

> the

> millennia-old

> > sense of the term. Modern saints such as Sri

> Amritanananda

> Natha and

> > the increasingly popular Ammachi are indeed

> expanding and

> deepening

> > the possibilities of Shaktism -- but their

> innovations began only

> > after they had fully understood and experienced

> the wisdom of

> the

> > system as they received it.

> >

> > *** According to [the Oriya Hindus], this story

> exemplifies

> > voluntary subordination, a deliberate exercise in

> self-control. It

> > is such self-control that is culturally valued and

> it is through

> > self-control that women gain power. ***

> >

> > From my limited understanding of the social

> structure, this

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

 

New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Mary Ann:

 

I was not ignoring the statement you reference; I simply felt I've

already repeated my views on that point ad nauseum.

 

The Tantras are -- in my opinion, and I think objectively as well --

proven, philosophically neutral methods for accessing Shakti (which

would, of course, include the concept of "generating power"). By

contrast, you feel they are not neutral enough, and that is your

prerogative.

 

You say it's possible to devise a new spiritual philosophy that

addresses your social/gender/heirarchial concerns in a way that the

existing corpus of the Shakta belief system, in your opinion, does

not. I reply, "Sure, new philosophies and religions and sub-

divisions of religions are created every day." You say that new

methods of Self-Realization can be discovered within the framework

of that new philosophy. I respond, "Sure, why not?"

 

We part company only on the practical level. I say, I would rather

realize Devi first (via an established Shakta path that resonates

strongly and effectively for me), and then -- with that holistic

vision -- assess and address the social shortcomings of the path in

a way that will accomodate others. You say (if I understand you

correctly), "No. First devise a path that assesses and addresses

social shortcomings, then use it and see if it leads to realization

of Devi."

 

Maybe I am being extremely inflexible in my thinking, but to me that

seems like an unnecessarily hard road. I am not criticizing your

desire to blaze a new trail and see where it leads; in fact, I find

it admirable. But I can't find the motivation to do so myself,

because I just do not share your view that the received Tantras are

hopelessly tainted with social baggage. Therefore, the sort of trail-

blazing you propose (again, if I understand you correctly) seems

like re-inventing the wheel.

 

Again, the problem may be one of definitions -- I've called

Tantra "scriptures" in the past, in the sense of received religious

writings. You seem to have understood me, therefore, as equating

them to the Bible; and that is not correct: The Tantras are

not "scriptures" in the sense of promoting a worldview (as the Bible

does); they are simply instruction manuals. Nor are they scriptures

in the sense of being written down -- because (unlike the Bible)

most require oral transmission to be understood and used

effectively.

 

That oral content can vary with guru and lineage -- so you see,

there are countless diverse Tantras (instruction manuals) with

abundant built-in room for constant "update" and innovation. But

these evolutions and developments are innovated from within, based

on experiential knowledge -- not from without, based on theory.

 

So, again, I was not ignoring your point. I just feel like I'm

babbling on, repeating the same stuff over and over. So if I

understand your view and you understand mine, then let us agree to

disagree.

 

DB

 

, "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

wrote:

> But DB, you did not address this one point: "I would say my

concern

> isn't only what we do with the power, but how we generate or call

the

> power into being." And that is the point at which I feel it is

> valuable to observe, and where there is room for change - going

> beyond scriptures, even, the same way the Bible is seen to be

> outdated in some respects....

[Guest guest]

dear satish arigeal,

i do agree satish. But I cannot find a srividya

teacher in singapore. and on the website of

shaktisadhana where devi bhakta has discusse the

concept of gury that guru can be replaced by proper

information. Although I follow whatever amritananda

sarawati has said in the audio tape by books. when I

started my quest of srividya and especially

considering that sividya used to be an oral tradition

passed from guru to students I asked this question on

the web site about how to find a guru. Then one member

replied --- one should continue its quest on the

journey with whatever availbale information. At the

right time one will get the opportunity to meet his

guru.isn't it true that if i had waited for a guru

which I am sure I would not find it here I would have

wasted one year of spiritual quest. amritanda has said

in one of his booklet -- strong faith will give you

the experience of goddess.

And that is one good thing of swami amritananda

sarawati-- whatever basic teaching hs put on the web

for its followers -- not hid it like other so called

guru. that way many people are benefitted. yes it is

treu that some day i will get the opportunity to meet

him hopefullty. but I believe that quest to knowledge

should not stop till I meet him.I bwlieve that I

should look for the right infomation. If my intention

is true

the will godess will not put me on the wrong path. one

day obviously i will get the right person to teach me

with live instructions.

 

i would agin request satish and all members to please

provide me all the authntic sources.sources

 

JP

 

 

 

 

--- Satish Arigela <satisharigela wrote:

> The chakra rituals are to be learnt from a Guru

> after proper diksha.

> The first thing that needs to be done in Srividya is

> to find a Guru.

>

> No guru no Srividya or Tantra.

>

> Rgds

> Satish.

>

>

> , Jatin Prakash

>

> <jatinprakash> wrote:

> > dear shakti sadhana members,

> > i am looking fo a good book in sanskrit/hindi

> script

> > on srividya. this book should inlude all the

> ritual

> > for a sri vidya upasak. there is a book by

> srividya

> > organisation in new york which is a sister

> > organisation of that run by amritananda saraswati

> but

> > it is in english and tamil. on enquiry they told

> some

> > months ago that hindi version is ready but till

> today

> > it is not on the web(www.srividya.org). can anny

> > learned member suggest me a basic ritual boook. i

> > would also like to know what are the other books

> on

> > srividya which i should keep in the library i.e.

> the

> > classical sources on srividay and if possible

> where to

> > get them.

> > my level---i started srividya sadhna a year ago

> and

> > had beeen just doing the the chakra meditaion by

> > amritananda, lalita sahranama, lalita trishati,

> > khadgama, imean the things which are on the web of

> > ww.vi1.org. but they dod not give the rituals to

> be

> > followed. now i think i should move on to a little

> > advanced stage by going through books. and not

> only

> > rituals but history of srividya etc. that is why i

> > wrote this mail. i hope learned members will

> reply.

> > JP

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear JP:

 

Hope I didn't misguide you. A lot of old stuff I've written is in

the archives and on the website. It came (and is still coming) with

the conceit of trying to moderate a group like this, where so many

members have vastly more knowledge than I do -- you

essentially "grow up in public," so that everyone who happens to be

interested or amused can observe all of your mistakes and

shortcomings along the way. Que sera sera ...

 

*** on the website of shaktisadhana, devi bhakta has discussed the

concept of guru, that guru can be replaced by proper information. ***

 

If I said that, I was wrong. However, proper information can go a

long way toward readying one to receive a guru when the moment is

right.

 

*** one should continue its quest on the journey with whatever

availbale information. At the right time one will get the

opportunity to meet his guru. ***

 

That is correct.

 

*** isn't it true that if i had waited for a guru, which I am sure I

would not find it here, I would have wasted one year of spiritual

quest. ***

 

No, no time is wasted. If there is no guru, it simply means you need

to continue with a simpler sadhana until the time comes. I doubt

that impatience or doubt would accelerate the process.

 

*** amritanda has said in one of his booklet -- strong faith will

give you the experience of goddess. ***

 

That booklet is more than enough to bring you where you need to be --

if you follow it in faith and avoid impatience for "results."

 

*** one day obviously i will get the right person to teach me with

live instructions. ***

 

As Devi wills.

 

*** i would agin request satish and all members to please provide me

all the authntic sources. ***

 

Believe me, we're working on it! ;-) The Khadgamala Stotram is only

the beginning ...

 

DB

[Guest guest]

dear devi bhakta,

tanks for the reply. I FAQ about

khadgamala you have written that original

injunctions(not sure about the spelling) has been

lost.

does it mean the rituals have been lost or the

original text of khadgamala hase been lost. second

question i would like to ask if we are doing

khadgamala sadhna(repeating more than one time) so do

we start from

anima siddhii,...etc or from nitya devis... or from

asya shudha.. from the second time. At present I do it

for only one time so for proper sadhana let us say

sometime I decide to do it how many times and for how

many days one should do it.I hope you are clear on

this question. Like we say that we have to so this

much malas for this many days for a proper mantra

sadhana. so how many times and how many day is it for

the khadgamala sadhana.

and one day I had asked this question on the website

only sanakar replied partially. You had written that

one should get passed the outer siddhis(anima, mahima,

etc) to get into sri yantra. As a lay man what it

means that one whould acquire theses siddhis to get

into sri yantra or just leave them outside and get

into sri yantra. Because as a layman i do not think

these big siddhis will come to any person(except a few

evolved soul). so what did you mean by that.

and my next question is that in one of the

visualistion of the srichakra on the human body on one

of the tantar sites i saw each of the inner chakras

were placed at the boday energy centres(like

muladhara, swadhistha, etc..) but the outermost

rectangular figure containing anima,mahima( the three

lines) was on/below the feet. why is that energy

centre below where thee is no chakra.

I am sorry for the lon mail. but if I should not miss

the opportunity to get the right information if it is

available.

JP

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta wrote:

> Dear JP:

>

> Hope I didn't misguide you. A lot of old stuff I've

> written is in

> the archives and on the website. It came (and is

> still coming) with

> the conceit of trying to moderate a group like this,

> where so many

> members have vastly more knowledge than I do -- you

> essentially "grow up in public," so that everyone

> who happens to be

> interested or amused can observe all of your

> mistakes and

> shortcomings along the way. Que sera sera ...

>

> *** on the website of shaktisadhana, devi bhakta has

> discussed the

> concept of guru, that guru can be replaced by proper

> information. ***

>

> If I said that, I was wrong. However, proper

> information can go a

> long way toward readying one to receive a guru when

> the moment is

> right.

>

> *** one should continue its quest on the journey

> with whatever

> availbale information. At the right time one will

> get the

> opportunity to meet his guru. ***

>

> That is correct.

>

> *** isn't it true that if i had waited for a guru,

> which I am sure I

> would not find it here, I would have wasted one year

> of spiritual

> quest. ***

>

> No, no time is wasted. If there is no guru, it

> simply means you need

> to continue with a simpler sadhana until the time

> comes. I doubt

> that impatience or doubt would accelerate the

> process.

>

> *** amritanda has said in one of his booklet --

> strong faith will

> give you the experience of goddess. ***

>

> That booklet is more than enough to bring you where

> you need to be --

> if you follow it in faith and avoid impatience for

> "results."

>

> *** one day obviously i will get the right person to

> teach me with

> live instructions. ***

>

> As Devi wills.

>

> *** i would agin request satish and all members to

> please provide me

> all the authntic sources. ***

>

> Believe me, we're working on it! ;-) The Khadgamala

> Stotram is only

> the beginning ...

>

> DB

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi JP:

 

Crikey, I am talking a lot today. :-( ... Anyway, these are my

opinions only:

 

*** In FAQ about khadgamala you have written that original

injunctions(not sure about the spelling) has been lost. does it mean

the rituals have been lost or the original text of khadgamala hase

been lost. ***

 

The original text, if any, from which the KS was drawn has been lost

to history. The text of the KS itself has survived.

 

*** i would like to ask if we are doing khadgamala sadhna(repeating

more than one time) so do we start from anima siddhii,...etc or from

nitya devis... or from asya shudha.. from the second time. ***

>From Anima is fine, so long as the recitation is continuous.

 

*** At present I do it for only one time, so for proper sadhana let

us say sometime I decide to do it how many times and for how many

days one should do it. I hope you are clear on this question. ***

 

No, sorry, I am really not clear on it. However, I think you're

asking for a prescription as to intense, concentrated repetitions,

and that would depend on many factors. Best t have a guru before

undertaking those sorts of acrobatics.

 

*** You had written that one should get passed the outer siddhis

(anima, mahima, etc) to get into sri yantra. As a lay man what it

means that one whould acquire theses siddhis to get into sri yantra

or just leave them outside and get into sri yantra. ***

 

In the context of KS, one simply visualizes each devi absorbing into

oneself, and consequently into one another, as the recitation

proceeds. This includes the devis who represent siddhis: Visualize

yourself acquiring each power as you absorb her -- that she is

channeling her power thru you.

 

*** Because as a layman i do not think these big siddhis will come

to any person(except a few evolved soul). so what did you mean by

that. ***

 

Talk to any Olympic athlete. Visualization and positive repetition

are powerful tools in transforming one's personal reality, and

accessing abilities beyond any expectations.

 

*** why is that energy centre below where there is no chakra. ***

 

Not sure; I haven't seen the picture or the context in which it

appears, so I'd only be guessing. I'm sure there are more

knowledgeable members who can help you with this one.

 

Good luck

 

DB

[Guest guest]

Dear Devi Bhakta:

 

OK, I think we are at the end of this! You are correct: I do think

those cultural issues are in the Tantras, too, and for that reason,

it may not be appropriate for everyone to do every ritual. So,

apparently, we disagree there. However, I AGREE that raising power

and then addressing what needs to be addressed, within self, in

society, allowing/creating transformation, etc. is a good way to

proceed.

 

Mary Ann

 

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> Dear Mary Ann:

>

We part company only on the practical level. I say, I would rather

realize Devi first (via an established Shakta path that resonates

strongly and effectively for me), and then -- with that holistic

vision -- assess and address the social shortcomings of the path in

a way that will accomodate others. You say (if I understand you

correctly), "No. First devise a path that assesses and addresses

social shortcomings, then use it and see if it leads to realization

of Devi."in some respects....

[Guest guest]

why do you think you will not find a teacher in S'pore? Even if you are in the

remotest part of the world at the right time the right person will appear.

 

 

 

Jatin Prakash <jatinprakash wrote:

dear satish arigeal,

i do agree satish. But I cannot find a srividya teacher in singapore. and on the

website of shaktisadhana where devi bhakta has discusse the concept of gury that

guru can be replaced by proper information. Although I follow whatever

amritananda sarawati has said in the audio tape by books. when I started my

quest of srividya and especially considering that sividya used to be an oral

tradition passed from guru to students I asked this question on the web site

about how to find a guru. Then one member replied --- one should continue its

quest on the journey with whatever availbale information. At the

right time one will get the opportunity to meet his

guru.isn't it true that if i had waited for a guru

which I am sure I would not find it here I would have

wasted one year of spiritual quest. amritanda has said

in one of his booklet -- strong faith will give you

the experience of goddess.

And that is one good thing of swami amritananda

sarawati-- whatever basic teaching hs put on the web

for its followers -- not hid it like other so called

guru. that way many people are benefitted. yes it is

treu that some day i will get the opportunity to meet

him hopefullty. but I believe that quest to knowledge

should not stop till I meet him.I bwlieve that I

should look for the right infomation. If my intention

is true the will godess will not put me on the wrong path. one day obviously i

will get the right person to teach me with live instructions.

 

i would agin request satish and all members to please

provide me all the authntic sources.sources

 

JP

 

 

 

 

--- Satish Arigela <satisharigela wrote:

> The chakra rituals are to be learnt from a Guru

> after proper diksha.

> The first thing that needs to be done in Srividya is

> to find a Guru.

>

> No guru no Srividya or Tantra.

>

> Rgds

> Satish.

>

>

> , Jatin Prakash

>

> <jatinprakash> wrote:

> > dear shakti sadhana members,

> > i am looking fo a good book in sanskrit/hindi

> script

> > on srividya. this book should inlude all the

> ritual

> > for a sri vidya upasak. there is a book by

> srividya

> > organisation in new york which is a sister

> > organisation of that run by amritananda saraswati

> but

> > it is in english and tamil. on enquiry they told

> some

> > months ago that hindi version is ready but till

> today

> > it is not on the web(www.srividya.org). can anny

> > learned member suggest me a basic ritual boook. i

> > would also like to know what are the other books

> on

> > srividya which i should keep in the library i.e.

> the

> > classical sources on srividay and if possible

> where to

> > get them.

> > my level---i started srividya sadhna a year ago

> and

> > had beeen just doing the the chakra meditaion by

> > amritananda, lalita sahranama, lalita trishati,

> > khadgama, imean the things which are on the web of

> > ww.vi1.org. but they dod not give the rituals to

> be

> > followed. now i think i should move on to a little

> > advanced stage by going through books. and not

> only

> > rituals but history of srividya etc. that is why i

> > wrote this mail. i hope learned members will

> reply.

> > JP

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

dear sankara menon and all,

I hope it is true one day

that I will get a sri vidya guru in my real life one

day.

one of my query is::: "vidya" I suppose is attached to

the practice where one worships female forms

primarily. that is why we have terms like mahvidya

etc, sri vidya.

but srividya belonging to that group I find atrange

that most of the main sri vidya mantras ( I refer to

the site by amritananda) are for males gods like

(1) brow chakra-- shiva mantra

(2) vishudhi -- dattareya mantra

(3) anhata -- krishna mantra

(4) swaddihthana -- subramanyam mantra

(5) muladhara -- ganesh mantra

rest three are female.

srividya being a shakti worship which I query why one

should not use the female version of these mantras.

I was reading a prologue of lalita sahasranama listed

on this site and vishnu appears to lopamudra(or

hayagriva) and said that worshiping lalita (female

version) gives you the required goals very easily. so

why the srividya system did not opt for female

principles for these chakra meditation.

thanks a lot.

JP

 

 

--- sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote:

> why do you think you will not find a teacher in

> S'pore? Even if you are in the remotest part of the

> world at the right time the right person will

> appear.

>

>

>

> Jatin Prakash <jatinprakash wrote:

> dear satish arigeal,

> i do agree satish. But I cannot find a srividya

> teacher in singapore. and on the website of

> shaktisadhana where devi bhakta has discusse the

> concept of gury that guru can be replaced by proper

> information. Although I follow whatever amritananda

> sarawati has said in the audio tape by books. when I

> started my quest of srividya and especially

> considering that sividya used to be an oral

> tradition passed from guru to students I asked this

> question on the web site about how to find a guru.

> Then one member replied --- one should continue its

> quest on the journey with whatever availbale

> information. At the

> right time one will get the opportunity to meet his

> guru.isn't it true that if i had waited for a guru

> which I am sure I would not find it here I would

> have

> wasted one year of spiritual quest. amritanda has

> said

> in one of his booklet -- strong faith will give you

> the experience of goddess.

> And that is one good thing of swami amritananda

> sarawati-- whatever basic teaching hs put on the web

> for its followers -- not hid it like other so called

> guru. that way many people are benefitted. yes it is

> treu that some day i will get the opportunity to

> meet

> him hopefullty. but I believe that quest to

> knowledge

> should not stop till I meet him.I bwlieve that I

> should look for the right infomation. If my

> intention

> is true the will godess will not put me on the wrong

> path. one day obviously i will get the right person

> to teach me with live instructions.

>

> i would agin request satish and all members to

> please

> provide me all the authntic sources.sources

>

> JP

>

>

>

>

> --- Satish Arigela <satisharigela wrote:

> > The chakra rituals are to be learnt from a Guru

> > after proper diksha.

> > The first thing that needs to be done in Srividya

> is

> > to find a Guru.

> >

> > No guru no Srividya or Tantra.

> >

> > Rgds

> > Satish.

> >

> >

> > , Jatin

> Prakash

> >

> > <jatinprakash> wrote:

> > > dear shakti sadhana members,

> > > i am looking fo a good book in sanskrit/hindi

> > script

> > > on srividya. this book should inlude all the

> > ritual

> > > for a sri vidya upasak. there is a book by

> > srividya

> > > organisation in new york which is a sister

> > > organisation of that run by amritananda

> saraswati

> > but

> > > it is in english and tamil. on enquiry they told

> > some

> > > months ago that hindi version is ready but till

> > today

> > > it is not on the web(www.srividya.org). can anny

> > > learned member suggest me a basic ritual boook.

> i

> > > would also like to know what are the other books

> > on

> > > srividya which i should keep in the library i.e.

> > the

> > > classical sources on srividay and if possible

> > where to

> > > get them.

> > > my level---i started srividya sadhna a year ago

> > and

> > > had beeen just doing the the chakra meditaion by

> > > amritananda, lalita sahranama, lalita trishati,

> > > khadgama, imean the things which are on the web

> of

> > > ww.vi1.org. but they dod not give the rituals to

> > be

> > > followed. now i think i should move on to a

> little

> > > advanced stage by going through books. and not

> > only

> > > rituals but history of srividya etc. that is why

> i

> > > wrote this mail. i hope learned members will

> > reply.

> > > JP

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Sponsor

>

>

>

> Links

>

>

> /

>

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to the

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

 

[Guest guest]

Jitin:

 

We do not use any mantra that pleases us. It has all been set by great seers.

And the gender issue is not there at all.

 

In Mahaa Shodashi it is said Devi can be worshipped as a female, Male or as

attributeless. Lets not import our concept of gender seperation ionto sadhana.

 

Further the chakra Devtas are fixed by rishis. when we reach that stage we will

either understand how and why or we can change it. Wait till one reaches that

level to consider such issues.

 

Jatin Prakash <jatinprakash wrote:

dear sankara menon and all,

I hope it is true one day

that I will get a sri vidya guru in my real life one

day.

one of my query is::: "vidya" I suppose is attached to

the practice where one worships female forms

primarily. that is why we have terms like mahvidya

etc, sri vidya.

but srividya belonging to that group I find atrange

that most of the main sri vidya mantras ( I refer to

the site by amritananda) are for males gods like

(1) brow chakra-- shiva mantra

(2) vishudhi -- dattareya mantra

(3) anhata -- krishna mantra

(4) swaddihthana -- subramanyam mantra

(5) muladhara -- ganesh mantra

rest three are female.

srividya being a shakti worship which I query why one

should not use the female version of these mantras.

I was reading a prologue of lalita sahasranama listed

on this site and vishnu appears to lopamudra(or

hayagriva) and said that worshiping lalita (female

version) gives you the required goals very easily. so

why the srividya system did not opt for female

principles for these chakra meditation.

thanks a lot.

JP

 

 

--- sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote:

> why do you think you will not find a teacher in

> S'pore? Even if you are in the remotest part of the

> world at the right time the right person will

> appear.

>

>

>

> Jatin Prakash <jatinprakash wrote:

> dear satish arigeal,

> i do agree satish. But I cannot find a srividya

> teacher in singapore. and on the website of

> shaktisadhana where devi bhakta has discusse the

> concept of gury that guru can be replaced by proper

> information. Although I follow whatever amritananda

> sarawati has said in the audio tape by books. when I

> started my quest of srividya and especially

> considering that sividya used to be an oral

> tradition passed from guru to students I asked this

> question on the web site about how to find a guru.

> Then one member replied --- one should continue its

> quest on the journey with whatever availbale

> information. At the

> right time one will get the opportunity to meet his

> guru.isn't it true that if i had waited for a guru

> which I am sure I would not find it here I would

> have

> wasted one year of spiritual quest. amritanda has

> said

> in one of his booklet -- strong faith will give you

> the experience of goddess.

> And that is one good thing of swami amritananda

> sarawati-- whatever basic teaching hs put on the web

> for its followers -- not hid it like other so called

> guru. that way many people are benefitted. yes it is

> treu that some day i will get the opportunity to

> meet

> him hopefullty. but I believe that quest to

> knowledge

> should not stop till I meet him.I bwlieve that I

> should look for the right infomation. If my

> intention

> is true the will godess will not put me on the wrong

> path. one day obviously i will get the right person

> to teach me with live instructions.

>

> i would agin request satish and all members to

> please

> provide me all the authntic sources.sources

>

> JP

>

>

>

>

> --- Satish Arigela <satisharigela wrote:

> > The chakra rituals are to be learnt from a Guru

> > after proper diksha.

> > The first thing that needs to be done in Srividya

> is

> > to find a Guru.

> >

> > No guru no Srividya or Tantra.

> >

> > Rgds

> > Satish.

> >

> >

> > , Jatin

> Prakash

> >

> > <jatinprakash> wrote:

> > > dear shakti sadhana members,

> > > i am looking fo a good book in sanskrit/hindi

> > script

> > > on srividya. this book should inlude all the

> > ritual

> > > for a sri vidya upasak. there is a book by

> > srividya

> > > organisation in new york which is a sister

> > > organisation of that run by amritananda

> saraswati

> > but

> > > it is in english and tamil. on enquiry they told

> > some

> > > months ago that hindi version is ready but till

> > today

> > > it is not on the web(www.srividya.org). can anny

> > > learned member suggest me a basic ritual boook.

> i

> > > would also like to know what are the other books

> > on

> > > srividya which i should keep in the library i.e.

> > the

> > > classical sources on srividay and if possible

> > where to

> > > get them.

> > > my level---i started srividya sadhna a year ago

> > and

> > > had beeen just doing the the chakra meditaion by

> > > amritananda, lalita sahranama, lalita trishati,

> > > khadgama, imean the things which are on the web

> of

> > > ww.vi1.org. but they dod not give the rituals to

> > be

> > > followed. now i think i should move on to a

> little

> > > advanced stage by going through books. and not

> > only

> > > rituals but history of srividya etc. that is why

> i

> > > wrote this mail. i hope learned members will

> > reply.

> > > JP

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Sponsor

>

>

>

> Links

>

>

> /

>

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to the

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

 

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Mary Ann:

 

Fair enough ;-) ... and thanks again for a valuable exercise in

questioning ideas and practices we might otherwise not even think

twice about.

 

Re: the Tantras, you wrote "it may not be appropriate for everyone

to do every ritual. So, apparently, we disagree there."

 

On the contrary, I think we absolutely agree -- albeit for different

reasons. Tantra is a path of the few, not the many; practically by

definition, it's not for everybody. Further, there are more Tantras

than any one person could ever name, let alone study and practice.

And each of those Tantras can widely vary in interpretation and

application, depending upon one's guru and lineage. In fact, NOBODY

should (or can) "do every ritual." And the vast majority of humanity

will never do even one.

 

You add: *** However, I AGREE that raising power and then addressing

what needs to be addressed, within self, in society,

allowing/creating transformation, etc. is a good way to proceed. ***

 

Yes, we do agree on that as well -- it is pretty much impossible to

work really effectively with Shakti until you have opened yourself

to Her flow. As usual, what it takes me pages to express, Kochu can

effectively convey in a few simple sentences. And I loved what he

wrote just today -- "when we reach that stage we will either

understand how and why, or we can change it. Wait till one reaches

that level to consider such issues."

 

To repeat Woodroffe's concise observation: "In Shakti Sadhana, the

aim is Wholeness and Power -- and that is precisely the effect

gained by practical working, or sAdhana, as distinct from mere

theorising. Life itself is Power, ... [and] abundant Life is needed

for the successful undertaking of all human activity. How to gain it

is the work of sAdhana."

 

Aum Maatangyai Namahe

[Guest guest]

Dear Ashoka,

 

What a great Guru you must have that encouraged you to read about

Jesus Christ. This is the beauty I have found in the teachings of

the Gurus of Inidia is theier level of flexibility. What great love

your Guru must have had.

 

 

 

 

, "Ashoka " <ashoka_h@h...>

wrote:

> Dear Mary Ann!

>

> I was born in a Oriya Hindy Family and given the best of modern

> education in schools run by missionaries both Baptists and

Catholics.

> Went in for highrest education possible and since childhood guided

> and made spiritually aware by my Guru who advocated to me to read

the

> book Imitation Of Christ and Cloud Of Unknowing.

>

> Do you believe everything that you read ? Articles are many about

> everything possible but TRUTH is something else. Girls are adored

and

> cared for both by the poor and the rich alike in Orissa where the

> maximum festivals are for girls all around the year. They are

> pampered for they leave home when they get married.

>

> There is always room for abuse in every culture but the little I

have

> seen the woman in every house in Orissa is in control and the

centre

> of attention and when she dies the household affection base

crumbles.

> I live in Camada and go back to Orissa often. I find the girls

smart

> intelligent holding good jobs and loving their husbands and in

laws.

> Tell me what is wrong with that picture. In fact I found beauty in

> both their understanding and their surrender to duty. This is true

in

> all parts in India.

>

> With much love in Christ

> Ashoka

> , "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

> wrote:

> > This post is long, but I hope anyone who reads it will find it

> > worthwhile. I recognize the Oriya Hindu ideas stated below as

> > being alive and well in the West, too. I am not picking on

Hindus.

> > The following excerpts are from the chapter entitled Hierarchy

> > and Difference as Natural and Moral, excerpted from Power in its

> > Place, an essay by Usha Menon and Richard Shweder

> > published in the book Is the Goddess a Feminist? The Politics of

> > South Asian Goddesses.

> >

> > This essay explains what I have been attempting to express that

> > has met with hostility or lack of understanding as to how it

> > relates to Shakti Sadhana. This essay shows that Eastern

> > spiritual philosophies are not free of the hierarchical

domination

> > I feel is responsible for the ills of our world. This is why,

for

> all

> > the benefit of Eastern spiritual teachings, including the

presence

> > of the Divine Feminine, I feel what this essay describes should

> > not be the relationship between men and women. I feel that men

> > and women each need to be both sides of this equation within

> > themselves in order for us to grow. I think this old way

prevents

> > further development by keeping us traveling in old worn grooves

> > rather than new places we have yet to go in our brains and the

> > world. For me, Shakti Sadhana involves imagining and creating

> > new realms, and recognizing the limits of the old.

> >

> > " ... Temple town men and women believe that male and female

> > are the only two "jatis" or 'castes' in the world whose

differences

> > can never be truly transcended.

> >

> > ...Men...have disproportionately more of the sattva guna. They

> > are thus regarded as 'purer,' and because of their relative

purity

> > they enjoy greater privileges in some contexts.

> > Women...possess more gunas in absolute terms. Thus they

> > exercise more power and control than men in other contexts.

> >

> > ...Oriya Hindu husbands ...dominate their wives.... the Oriya

> > Hindu wife is extremely careful to display the utmost respect

and

> > deference to her husband. ...In fact, the Oriya word for husband

> > is swami - meaning 'lord' - while the Oriya word for wife is

stri

> or

> > 'woman.' (My note: Husband is Wife's God, Wife is Husband's

> > Woman)

> >

> > This acceptance of inequality by Oriya Hindu women is rooted in

> > their belief that they are continually in a state of relative

> physical

> > impurity. The fact of menstruation, a natural process that is

> > difficult to regulate trhough fasting or any other cultural

means,

> > reinforces the belief in the natural inferiority of women.

> > ...Alternatively stated, Oriya men do not need to exert brute

force

> > to ensure this recognition of a hierarchical relationship

between

> > men and women.

> >

> > And it is here that the meanings the Oriya Hindus attach to the

> > icon of Kali become particularly relevant. (Note: the

interviewers

> > asked the Oriya men and women to tell them about Kali from a

> > picture they showed them of Kali standing on Shiva who is lying

> > on the ground. Kali has her tongue out and her mouth and eyes

> > are open wide. Everyone shared fairly the same understanding

> > as expressed below.)

> >

> > Men and women in Bhubaneswar say that the goddess was

> > morally justified in her murderous rampage because the male

> > gods had betrayed her, sending her in to do battle with the

> > buffalo demon, Mahishasura, without telling her that the boon

the

> > demon had received from Brahma protected him from every

> > living being but a naked female and that to kill him, she would

> > have to strip. But they say that she also became calm, regained

> > her composure, not because of anything Shiva did but because

> > of a sense of her duty as a wife to Shiva, and as a mother to

the

> > world. ...If she had wished, she could have crushed [shiva] and

> > gone on with her destruction. According to [the Oriya Hindus],

> > this story exemplifies voluntary subordination, a deliberate

> > exercise in self-control. It is such self-control that is

> culturally

> > valued and it is through self-control that women gain power.

> >

> > ...Oriya women and men see the goddess as full of power. But it

> > is a power that is reined in and held in check. It is a power

that

> is

> > controlled from within. It is a power that is capable of

destroying

> > men and all of creation. It is a power that is exercised most

> > responsibly by enduring the sacrifices and harships that are

> > necessary to keep the social order from tumbling down. Thus,

> > while it is conceivable that in Marin County, California, these

> > days, Kali may have become a symbol of feminism, among Oriya

> > Hindus in the temple town of Bhubaneswar, the Great Mother of

> > us all stands for neither gender equality nor for any

> > transformation of society."

[Guest guest]

Thank You Jose! Just hope such Masters grace us by their presence

every moment of our lives. I went to Shree Rajarajeswari Peetham this

weekend and when a rose fell from the photo of Shree Amritananda Ji

near Mother, and I saw the photo of Guru Garu with the Shreemeru

manifested I understood with my limited intellect what Shakti Sadhana

really means. Power in the Lalitha Sahasra Nama done by children and

adults kept me rooted in that place. Thank you each and everyone in

this group for you are spreading Her Love.