Guest guest Posted August 10, 2002 Report Share Posted August 10, 2002 Om Kali Shelly Ma , Yes he is a good writer.IN MY >kalima >Kali_Ma >Kali_Ma >Subject: Tantra >Thu, 08 Aug 2002 08:37:46 -0400 > >I was wondering since you had mentioned Tantra in your last post if you had >any feelings toward Harish Johari. I am currently reading his book called >"Tools for Tantra". I am finding it wonderful and interesting beyond what I >had hoped to find. He seems to have written many books and was curious if >you have read any or perhaps this book that I am reading and would love to >hear your views on the book. > > >Jai Ma! > >Shelly > > > > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Greetings, Those who are interested may want to check out The Magdalene Manuscript: The Alchemies of Horus and Sex Magic of Isis. The authors are Tom Kenyon (who has an awesome web site) and Judi Sion. Blessings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Interesting offboard exchange. Awfully similar to what's been said on-board, but th recycle rate on stuff like this is unusually high. Anyway, original letter is at bottom, Kochu's response is at top: --- <kochu1tz wrote: > Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:06:33 -0800 (PST) > <kochu1tz > Re: Fwd: Tantra > [xxxxx] > > Thank You for enlightening me. > You seem to be under the impression that I > advocate drinking and the like. Let me tell you it > is NOT so. > The use these are not in the sense of getting > drunk or for the purpose of having a new partner > every so often. Far from it. If these were not > essentials why are the vaideeka practitioners using > "prateekas" or substitutes? > But please do remember that there are pro and > contra views on its use and how it is used. Each > parampara uses what it has been handed down the > line. > I would rather follow what MY GURU has taught me. > In case you are a shakta, please read parashurama > kalpasootra and thats the basic text I follow and > the relevant sootras were earlier extracted by a > member I prefer to follow them. > I will not take the path of the Christian > evangelists and try to force down the throat of > others one's personal point of view asserting it to > be the ONLY path. The exclusivist doctorine is > basically Jeudo-Christian and not Hindu. > I am not going to dispute you or enter into an > argument. You have your path and let others follow > theirs. > > > > [xxxxx] wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > [xxxxx] > Nov 18, 2005 11:51 AM > Tantra > -owner > Tantra and the Five Makaar > There is a high regard for the Five Makaar in > Tantra. According to the Kaali Tantra: > Madyam Mamsam cha Meenam cha Mudra > Maithunamewacha Ete Panchamakaaraah Siurmokshyadaa > hi Yuge Yuge > > "Alcoholic liquor, Meat, Fish, Mudra and Sex are > the Five Makaar that deliver salvation in every > yugas (eras)" - this is what the word-by-word > meaning of the stanza stands for. But if you are in > impression this is what the Five Makaar (and Tantra) > is all about, be aware! And go through what Lord > Shiva (originator of Tantra) says in the Kulaarnav > Tantra: (Did I ver say anywhere that this is all > there is to Makaaras??) > > Madya paanena manuja yadi siddhi labhate vai, > Madyapaanarataah sarve siddhi gachchhatu > yaamaraah. > Maamsa bhaskhyana maatrena yadi punyaa > gatibharveta, > Loke maamsaasinah sarve punya bhaajau bhawantu ha. > > Stri sambhogena deveshi yadi mokshyam labhet vai, > sarvepi jayantavo loke muktaah siuh stree > nishevaata. > > Meaning: "If drinking of alcoholic liquor was to > deliver Siddhi (fulfilment), no one would have been > more fulfilled than a drunkard. If consumption of > flesh (meat) pledged punya (virtuousness), all > non-vegetarian would have been blessed with it. If > sex was to provide salvation, all those engaged in > the act would have been salvaged. Therefore, Oh > Parvati! it is not possible!" > (NB: Parvati is the spouse of Lord Shiva) > > Analysis of both these statements from the ancient > texts of Tantra clearly indicate that none would be > more ignorant than those who take the definition of > the Five Makaar in its literal meaning. Tantra has > always been regarded as a highly sacred practice. To > maintain its original form and sacredness, however, > its system and techniques were mentioned in symbolic > and metaphoric ways (a common feature of all the > Tantras). The sole objective behind such > presentation was to maintain teacher-disciple > lineage, wherein each aspirant knowledge seeker > requires to surrender to a sadguru (supreme true > master) and understand its (Tantra's) meaning, > practice it under the master's surveillance and vow > him to follow its norms. > > But, sadly enough, in the absence of (or in the > presence of very few) genuine teachers, people have > been taking these words (The Five Ms) in its coarse > meaning. No wonder this brewed in a great deal of > controversy over the ancient practice of Tantra in > the society. Such widespread is the misapprehension > today that people do not even try to comprehend what > Tantra is all about. > > If we are to study the society closely, it becomes > distinct that two different categories of people, > which also represented the larger societal mass, > have been responsible for promoting the > misconceptions on Tantra. In the first category > belonged those people that had no guts to dig in the > underlying meaning of these words or search out the > reality of Tantra. It was easier for them to take > the Five Makaar in its gross meaning and preferable > to remain entangled in their own misinterpretation. > > > The other category represents those people who > actually knew of the innate meaning of the Five > Makaar but preferred to keep it a secret. While they > practiced the system and reaped Tantra's fruits > personally, they, on the other hand, went on > misrepresenting it publicly and flayed the system as > evil. Their sole aim for maintaining such double > standard was to prevent others from knowing the > truth and retain their supremacy in the society. > > It is for these types of people, the reality > of Tantra remained undisclosed and the system itself > was gradually cut-off from the society. So serious > has been the damage done that Nepal - the country > known for Tantra once - failed to preserve it for > new generations. While majority of people today are > afraid of the word (Tantra) itself, others link it > with sex and despise it. The existing world-wide > network of information technology too has not been > of much help as over 98 percent of the websites on > Tantra define it by tying it up with sex and coarser > meaning of the Five Makaar. This explains why Tantra > is greatly detested today. > > Then what is The Five Makaar anyway? > > One must plunge deep in the ancient scripts and > texts of Tantra itself to find out the real meaning > of The Five Makaar. The subtle meaning of these > words go as follows: > 1. Maamsa > Although coarse meaning of Maamsa is meat, maamsa > saadhaka (saadhaka means practioner), however, does > not mean 'one who eats meat'. > > Maa Shabdaasanaa gyenyaa tadamshaan rasanaa priye > Yastad bhakshyayatennitya sa yeva maamsa saadhaka > > "Maa means tongue and sa means control. So, maamsa > mean 'having power over tongue." And one who uses > his tongue wisely, has control over his words and > speeches (implies to activities too) is the maamsa > saadhaka." Hence, maamsa saadhana is 'strict > adherence to discipline'. > > 2. Meena > > Gangaa Yamunayormadhye matsyeu dwau charatee sadaa > > Tau matsyeu bhaksyeda yastu sa bhawenmatsya > saadhaka > Gangaa represents Ida nadi (a nerve running along > the left side of plexuses) and Yamunaa represents > Pingalaa nadi (a nerve running along the right side > of plexuses). In between these two nadi Matsya which > always flows that means sadhak who inhale breath > running in-between these nerve confluence at Trikuti > which means by controlling the breath who does this > process of full Kumbhak or Sunya (empty) > praanaayaam, he is said to be Matsya Sadhak. > > > 3. Madya > > Somadhaaraa kshyaredyaatu bramharandhraad > varaanane Potwaananda mayastaam yah sa yeva madya > saadhaka > > "A person who has a ability to enjoy the divine > peace and pleasure emanating from the consumption of > Somadhaaraa (Madya is also termed as Somadhaaraa) > secreted by bramharandhra (a gland in the head) is a > true Madya saadhaka." [NB: The gland located on > the highest point of the body (head) is called > Bramharandhra. The juice that oozes out of this > gland is partly controlled by Soma (moon is called > Soma in Sanskrit), hence, termed as Somaras or > Somadhaaraa. This juice is the mother of all > hormones as it is this juice that basically controls > the secretion of other juices and hormones. The > somarasa not only activates all the glands present > in the body but also lifts the practitioner to the > source of divine peace and pleasure. However, > laypersons cannot get this stream of pleasure. Only > those who are devoted to god and sadgurus (supreme > master) can taste it. Hence, Meena saadhana reflects > on total surrender to sadguru and god.] 4. > Mudra > > Satsangena bhawenmukkti rasatsangeshu bandhanam > Asatsanga mudranaam yat tanmudraa parikirtitaa > > "Bad alliance results in attachments (or > confinements), but good alliance always lead to the > salvation. Knowing this truth and renouncing the bad > alliance is the Mudra saadhana." Hence, Mudra > saadhana focuses on purification of self and > gathering of fruitful knowledge. > > 5. Maithuna > > Kula Kundalinee shaktirdehinaam deha dharinee > tayaa Shivasya samyogo maithuna parikeertitam > > "The act of awaking the Kunalini shakti located at > the base of the spinal cord and unifying her with > supreme lord Shiva located in Sahasrar is Maithuna > saadhana." > > [NB: The base of spinal cord is called Kul. > Kundalini Shakti is a highly potent power that > resides at kula in Muladhar Chakra located on the > lowest part of the trunk. Sahasrar, on the other > hand, is the chakra located at the top of the body > (head) and is an abode of Lord Shiva (and sadgurus). > Hence, Maithuna sadhana reflects on samaadhi.] > > Thus, it becomes clear that Tantra is far > from sex and physical enjoyment, unlike what people > have been thinking and fantasising of. The Practice > of Tantra proceeds in a sequence of 'from the body > to mind and finally to the soul'. This is the > correct sequencing of meditation for unless body and > mind is purified, spiritual progress is not > possible. Therefore, it is very necessary for a > practitioner to purify food habit and feelings > (thoughts). This is why Tantra is sacred practice. > And it is this sacredness that makes Tantra a > powerful technique of spiritual fulfilments. > However, in the absence of proper knowledge, > people have been despising the sacred teachings of > Lord Shiva. While a larger mass are explaining (and > ruling out) Tantra on the basis of their gross > knowledge, no less is the number of people who are > defining it for the sake of fulfilling their > physical needs. This has prompted the people to turn > away from Tantra and also dishonoured the divine > system of knowledge. > > Therefore, time has come for Tantriks, people > knowledgeable to Tantra and practitioners of ancient > techniques to challenge the misconceptions and > expose the reality of Tantra to people. People > should be made aware of the potency of the ancient > science, which the great Rishis and Yogis researched > out for the sole purpose of personal and social > well-being of sentient beings. They should be made > to realise that the knowledge and virtuousness is > not the property of sanyasis (those who renounce the > worldly affairs) alone. The significance of > knowledge, faith, virtuousness and power, in fact, > is needed more in the society. More so in today's > society as trust, morality, character, knowledge, > virtuousness, devotion, faith, potency and > fulfilment is fading fast today increasing the > miseries of commoners. Therefore, the early the > society cast away the existing misconceptions, the > better it is. After all, see what Lord Shiva has > said in Rasaarnav Tantra: > > Madya Maamsa rataa nityam bhagalingeshu > ye rataah > Teshaam vinasta buddhinaam rasagyaanam > sudurlabham. > > Meaning: "One who is engaged in drinking alcohol, > eating meat and having sex will loose the power to > think and wisdom, and will never experience the > divine knowledge of rasagyaan (knowledge of potency > and fulfilment)." > > Courtesy: 'Tantra Rahasyam' spoken by Parampujya > Sadgurudev Dr. Narayan Datta Srimaliji and later > translated in Gorakh-Nikhil Wani (Ashoj, 2058) > > > -- > Have a great day! > [xxxxx] FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 A critical reassessment of the popular held views upon the 5M doctrine of Tantrism _______________________ Significant enough, the point of the 5M is coming to the surface over and over again. In spite of rather clear explanation had been given in this particular group and elsewhere, still there are those who want to impose non-tantric views on the followers of Tantric path. Let us once again go through their line of argument. Here the matter of question is not "wrongness" of non-tantric teachings but only the viewpoint of Tantric tradition from within. (Regarding spiritual paths and theories that are essentially non-tantric let Tantras speak: kalAvAgamamulla~Nghya yo.anyamArge pravartate. na tasya gatirastIti satyaM satyaM na saMshayaH – Mahanirvana-tantra, 2.9) Coming to the point: > > Meaning: "If drinking of alcoholic liquor was to > > deliver Siddhi (fulfilment), no one would have been > > more fulfilled than a drunkard. If consumption of > > flesh (meat) pledged punya (virtuousness), all > > non-vegetarian would have been blessed with it. If > > sex was to provide salvation, all those engaged in > > the act would have been salvaged. Therefore, Oh > > Parvati! it is not possible!" > > (NB: Parvati is the spouse of Lord Shiva) In fact careful reading of Tantras including Kularnava reveals that Tantras state not that the practice of 5M by itself leads to liberation, but that complete perfection is not achieved without the 5M. There is a difference. Of course nowhere it is said that mere drinking, eating and sex grants nirvana. And when Tantras underline that these are not enough, it never means that these are not necessary. This is a typical kind of false argument intended for those who do not know the matter and cannot read the original sources. Two-three phrases are taken out of context and presented as a "valid proof" for the "fact" that Tantras speak of something that is not at all related to the literal sense of terms used. > > Analysis of both these statements from the ancient > > texts of Tantra clearly indicate that none would be > > more ignorant than those who take the definition of > > the Five Makaar in its literal meaning. In fact there are two possible statements equally ignorant: that Tantras preach drinking, sex and having fun, and that Tantras preach a kind of purely inner practice unrelated to drinking, sex and fun. Both views are erroneous and clearly biased. Many westerners mistook Tantrism to be a kind of Kamasutra stuff – thus they eagerly entertain an image of Tantra as a science of sex. At the same time certain indians being cowards and hypocrites try to present Tantra in "purely spiritual way" – according to their understanding (better say the lack of it). To this we should add those indian gurus who do know the truth but never speak it out openly for the reason of not disturbing the society or some other. Putting it once again: Tantras say that enjoyment is a means to liberation when the intention (bhAvanA) is proper. In this context sex, drinking etc is the path to perfection. In certain other context it is also stated, that "there is no liberation without maithuna" (Yoni- tantra, 8.2). However it is true, that Tantra has very little to do with popular western inventions of "tantric sex". > > Tantra has > > always been regarded as a highly sacred practice. To > > maintain its original form and sacredness, however, > > its system and techniques were mentioned in symbolic > > and metaphoric ways (a common feature of all the > > Tantras). The sole objective behind such > > presentation was to maintain teacher-disciple > > lineage, wherein each aspirant knowledge seeker > > requires to surrender to a sadguru (supreme true > > master) and understand its (Tantra's) meaning, > > practice it under the master's surveillance and vow > > him to follow its norms. This is the most strange argument. There were no grounds for such metaphoric usage of words for the following reasons: 1. All tantric texts were kept in secret and held down in lineages of Kula. Thus they were available only to adepts, more precisely to gurus and tantric pandits. There was no reason to hide their teaching in such a way – texts were already secret. 2. What ?ould be the necessity to hide a simple yogic or vedantic kind of practice in sexual wording? Every kind of conventional practice had been described in details in texts available to every literate man. There are numerous places in Tantras where meditation, pranayama, silence etc are described in clear terms. And in the same texts there are esoteric practices of 5M given a prominent place. 3. There are plenty verses that cannot be given any type of explanation apart from plain sexual sense. It is true to such degree that we have such awkward facts as using ***** for some too explicit words in printed editions of Tantras by some hypocrite scholars and selective mistranslation of texts by some gurus like in "Kali Puja" of american Satyananda Saraswati. 4. One of the strongest proof against the view mentioned above is the live tradition of Tantrism. Authentic gurus of Kula attest the presence of sexual pratice in tantric teaching. > > But, sadly enough, in the absence of (or in the > > presence of very few) genuine teachers, people have > > been taking these words (The Five Ms) in its coarse > > meaning. No wonder this brewed in a great deal of > > controversy over the ancient practice of Tantra in > > the society. Such widespread is the misapprehension > > today that people do not even try to comprehend what > > Tantra is all about. The situation in fact is just opposite. People most usually take the words of Tantras in some kind of invented sense and not in plain one. Very few gurus dare speak openly the truth of the 5M (there are several reasons for that, some of which are rather valid), many gurus speak falsehood and very few people have read the original texts in Sanskrit. And there are always plenty of "well-wishers" with complete knowledge of the subject as they think, who impose their "sattwic" version of Tantra on the audience. alpavidyo mahAgarvaH… > > If we are to study the society closely, it becomes > > distinct that two different categories of people, > > which also represented the larger societal mass, > > have been responsible for promoting the > > misconceptions on Tantra. In the first category > > belonged those people that had no guts to dig in the > > underlying meaning of these words or search out the > > reality of Tantra. It was easier for them to take > > the Five Makaar in its gross meaning and preferable > > to remain entangled in their own misinterpretation. Again, it was exactly the opposite case. Too many people had no guts to accept "left- hand" side of Tantric teaching so they simply pretended that it is not about that at all. For ruling classes Tantrism was a danger – at least if it be spread openly. For common people it was a challenge. Thus it was much easier to take 5M in any sense but not "gross". BTW those who simply want to drink and fuck need not to have any doctrinal base, they simply do what they want to. We know of many cases of monks, gurus and brahmacharins indulging in sexual relations, frequently of some perverted nature. Sattwic doctrine and denial of sex didn't stop them. On the other hand, many adepts who accept the most radical doctrines of Tantrism in theory do not put that into practice and lead a moderate but joyful life. > > The other category represents those people who > > actually knew of the innate meaning of the Five > > Makaar but preferred to keep it a secret. While they > > practiced the system and reaped Tantra's fruits > > personally, they, on the other hand, went on > > misrepresenting it publicly and flayed the system as > > evil. Their sole aim for maintaining such double > > standard was to prevent others from knowing the > > truth and retain their supremacy in the society. This is true in the regard that certain gurus and adepts knowing and practicing "left-hand" methods in private criticize the same in public. Not vice versa. If the true meaning of the 5M is purely inner, what is the need to hide it? > > Then what is The Five Makaar anyway? Provided interpretations of the 5M are correct but they are only a half. The literal sense of the 5M is another half. Only when the 5M are done in such a way that integrate both, this turns to be a mukti-dvara, the door to liberation. > > Thus, it becomes clear that Tantra is far > > from sex and physical enjoyment, unlike what people > > have been thinking and fantasising of. It is clear that Tantra teaches the path of enjoyment – this is not a western invention but an authentic doctrine of Tantras. Tantras see the world as a dynamic manifestation of Divine Consciousness, being full of bliss. Thus enjoying that bliss is a sadhana, the true way to perfection. Rejecting the world is either ignorance or denial of Divine. The Practice > > of Tantra proceeds in a sequence of 'from the body > > to mind and finally to the soul'. This is the > > correct sequencing of meditation for unless body and > > mind is purified, spiritual progress is not > > possible. Therefore, it is very necessary for a > > practitioner to purify food habit and feelings > > (thoughts). This is why Tantra is sacred practice. Tantric path start from consciousness and never from body. One's intentions and thoughts matter, never food habits and alike. This view is clearly given in Kularnava and many other texts of Kula and Trika schools. > > Therefore, time has come for Tantriks, people > > knowledgeable to Tantra and practitioners of ancient > > techniques to challenge the misconceptions and > > expose the reality of Tantra to people. Nice idea, bad realization… After all, see what Lord Shiva has > > said in Rasaarnav Tantra: > > Meaning: "One who is engaged in drinking alcohol, > > eating meat and having sex will loose the power to > > think and wisdom, and will never experience the > > divine knowledge of rasagyaan (knowledge of potency > > and fulfilment)." Wonderful example of lack of knowledge or purposeful misleading: Rasarnava-tantra must be the text on alchemy and not a Tantra. It should be kept in mind that some ayurvedic, alchemic and some other texts bear the word "tantra" in their titles, while they have nothing to do with Tantric tradition. Tantras never preach such degrading and life suppressing doctrine. shrI sundarI sevana tatparANAm bhuktish cha muktish cha karasthA eva… "To those who serve the Beauteous One both enjoyment and liberation are in their hands" Love is the law, love under will. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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