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Knowledge Independant of Thought.

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> 1. when the body dies, the way I look at it, any self or soul

it

> encloses, suddenly has no form. How is it possible to have

> conversations with the bob marleys and buddhas of the have-been

> world? That is to say, does a person exist as the same person when

> their corporeal form has gone? It's always a problem I have with

> theosophists and adherents of the steiner school of thought.

 

There is the sorcerer's standard answer to these questions:

 

See it for yourself. :-)

 

You have to understand that they don't say this as an act of

elitism - or because they want to tease you - or infuriate you. But

because if you come to anyone and ask them, "what does an apple

taste like?", they can never discribe it to you. They'll give you an

apple and say, "taste."

 

I think the element of confusion comes from a fundemental

misunderstanding. That knowledge can exist INDEPENDANT of thought.

 

That there is knowledge - an infinity of knowledge - once the mind

is silenced.

 

You say that when the body dies, there is no form. And so, no

thoughts. But does this mean no knowledge? No.

 

The earth is one world out of many - one ASSEMBLAGE POINT out of

several. :-) This is, while we are ignorant of the nature of the

assemblage point, the most inconcievable thing.

 

Let me try and explain it a different way. Many enlightened beings

have clarified that upon the moment of enlightenment - you trancend

your sense of self - you become, so to speak, non existant. And yet,

the Buddha walked on, and taught, until he turned 80. If you can see

how that is possible, everything will fall into place.

 

The first step is to STOP THE WORLD.

 

Both Buddhism and Naugalism, and several others focus on simply

this: Stopping the world.

 

The path doesn't matter. You can choose any path. As long as it's a

path with heart.

> 2. always taking it as said that because I haven't experienced

> it, I cannot possible know what its about, how do experiences on

the

> astral plane or wherever else, affect one's spiritual life

(whatever

> that is) in the now? Isn't it just another crutch one has to let

go

> of?

 

Experiences of the Astral planes happen while the world is stopped.

While we are dreaming, we have adecuately stopped the world. Part of

the Toltec path is to make the dreams an element of conscious

control - you can see why.

 

The crux to remember here is that it is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT KIND

OF KNOWLEDGE.

 

And the way to this knowledge is through a practice of soberity.

> 3. just as a matter of writing technique: you said, in your

> second post, I think, that none of what you'd just said was of

> relevance to us as readers, and what was really important was to

> follow. I thought you'd said it with good reason, because some

things

> do interfere with the reading experience; if some arcane or very

way-

> out experience is presented, it might come in the way of the

really

> important kernel. I'd be interested in knowing why you did mention

it

> in that case.

 

To engage the element of mystery within each person. It's the

mystery that makes us want to be free. :-) To concieve, all by

ourselves, that the Universe and everything is an utter mystery.

 

The warrior has no HOPE WHATSOEVER of solving the mystery. He

doesn't hope to crack the riddle, but he tries anyway. This is why

the Warrior's way is so important. The war is in the mind, after all.

> 4. and finally…don't you think, vajra, you've given us all a

> great deal of power over you by telling us your secret name? :D

(that

> is clearly not meant to be taken seriously).

 

Oh. Not at all. :-)

 

I guess I don't think in those terms. I think in terms of sharing my

passion, and giving gifts. My focus is on being an impeccable

warrior - to practice humility and get better at it - to lose all

sense of self-importance and self-pity. It doesn't matter if I get

better at it or not - but I focus on this and this alone.

 

One of the riddles of the sorcerer is that a thought - by it's pure

intent - can lead to the silence of the mind.

 

SOBERITY is the key.

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" when the body dies, the way I look at it, any self or soul it

encloses, suddenly has no form. How is it possible to have

conversations with the bob marleys and buddhas of the

have-been world? That is to say, does a person exist as the

same person when their corporeal form has gone?"

 

 

The Yoga/Vedanta viewpoint on this is that the phsical body

obtains its general shape and structure because of the shape

and structure of the prannic body. After the death of the physical

body, the subtle body leaves with a definite structure and shape

and with all the thoughts, emotions, and karmic history of the

so-called deceased. So, the answer to the question, "Does a

person exist as the same person when their corporeal form has

gone?", is, "Yes."

 

But, of course, we are never the same person because we are

always accumulating or discharging karma.

 

In addition, within the subtle body is the home of the soul and

when this home is finally entered the discovery is made that the

soul is everywhere all the time and is also beyond all space and

time.

 

So Hum

 

Omprem

 

, "Thilakshan

Jeyarajah" <dianic_dreams> wrote:

> > 1. when the body dies, the way I look at it, any self or soul

> it

> > encloses, suddenly has no form. How is it possible to have

> > conversations with the bob marleys and buddhas of the

have-been

> > world? That is to say, does a person exist as the same

person when

> > their corporeal form has gone? It's always a problem I have

with

> > theosophists and adherents of the steiner school of thought.

>

> There is the sorcerer's standard answer to these questions:

>

> See it for yourself. :-)

>

> You have to understand that they don't say this as an act of

> elitism - or because they want to tease you - or infuriate you.

But

> because if you come to anyone and ask them, "what does an

apple

> taste like?", they can never discribe it to you. They'll give you an

> apple and say, "taste."

>

> I think the element of confusion comes from a fundemental

> misunderstanding. That knowledge can exist INDEPENDANT

of thought.

>

> That there is knowledge - an infinity of knowledge - once the

mind

> is silenced.

>

> You say that when the body dies, there is no form. And so, no

> thoughts. But does this mean no knowledge? No.

>

> The earth is one world out of many - one ASSEMBLAGE POINT

out of

> several. :-) This is, while we are ignorant of the nature of the

> assemblage point, the most inconcievable thing.

>

> Let me try and explain it a different way. Many enlightened

beings

> have clarified that upon the moment of enlightenment - you

trancend

> your sense of self - you become, so to speak, non existant. And

yet,

> the Buddha walked on, and taught, until he turned 80. If you

can see

> how that is possible, everything will fall into place.

>

> The first step is to STOP THE WORLD.

>

> Both Buddhism and Naugalism, and several others focus on

simply

> this: Stopping the world.

>

> The path doesn't matter. You can choose any path. As long as

it's a

> path with heart.

>

> > 2. always taking it as said that because I haven't experienced

> > it, I cannot possible know what its about, how do experiences

on

> the

> > astral plane or wherever else, affect one's spiritual life

> (whatever

> > that is) in the now? Isn't it just another crutch one has to let

> go

> > of?

>

> Experiences of the Astral planes happen while the world is

stopped.

> While we are dreaming, we have adecuately stopped the

world. Part of

> the Toltec path is to make the dreams an element of

conscious

> control - you can see why.

>

> The crux to remember here is that it is an ENTIRELY

DIFFERENT KIND

> OF KNOWLEDGE.

>

> And the way to this knowledge is through a practice of soberity.

>

> > 3. just as a matter of writing technique: you said, in your

> > second post, I think, that none of what you'd just said was of

> > relevance to us as readers, and what was really important

was to

> > follow. I thought you'd said it with good reason, because

some

> things

> > do interfere with the reading experience; if some arcane or

very

> way-

> > out experience is presented, it might come in the way of the

> really

> > important kernel. I'd be interested in knowing why you did

mention

> it

> > in that case.

>

> To engage the element of mystery within each person. It's the

> mystery that makes us want to be free. :-) To concieve, all by

> ourselves, that the Universe and everything is an utter mystery.

>

> The warrior has no HOPE WHATSOEVER of solving the

mystery. He

> doesn't hope to crack the riddle, but he tries anyway. This is

why

> the Warrior's way is so important. The war is in the mind, after

all.

>

> > 4. and finally…don't you think, vajra, you've given us all a

> > great deal of power over you by telling us your secret name?

:D

> (that

> > is clearly not meant to be taken seriously).

>

> Oh. Not at all. :-)

>

> I guess I don't think in those terms. I think in terms of sharing

my

> passion, and giving gifts. My focus is on being an impeccable

> warrior - to practice humility and get better at it - to lose all

> sense of self-importance and self-pity. It doesn't matter if I get

> better at it or not - but I focus on this and this alone.

>

> One of the riddles of the sorcerer is that a thought - by it's pure

> intent - can lead to the silence of the mind.

>

> SOBERITY is the key.

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