Guest guest Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 KATHMANDU (Sept. 27, 2004): A seven-year-old girl revered by Hindus and Buddhists as a living goddess has had a rare festive excursion from the house where she is usually confined in the Nepalese capital, Kathmandu. Crowds roar and young men yell as they tug an ancient wooden chariot through the lanes of the old city. Inside is little Preeti Shakya who herself has been revered as the Kumari and incarnation of the Hindu mother goddess Durga for the past three years, in a tradition going back centuries. Each Kumari is chosen aged only three or four, always from the same Buddhist clan, and has to have 32 attributes, including thighs like those of a deer and a neck like a conch shell. She lives a confined life, only coming out of her palace three or four times a year until she reaches puberty when another Kumari must be found. This main outing coincides with a festival of thanks to the local rain god and as always, her feet must never touch the ground unless there is a red carpet beneath them. FACING FREEDOM Some former Kumaris have recently been speaking out about the difficulties of rejoining a family you hardly know. One said it was a real shock being told what to do by teachers and difficult playing with other children. Another, that she simply did not know how to face her freedom. A woman MP has even called for the tradition to be abolished. But today's Kumari is perhaps relatively lucky. Under quite new arrangements, living goddesses nowadays are all entitled to a formal education with a tutor of their choice. SOURCE: BBC News, "Living goddess makes rare outing", by Charles Haviland, BBC correspondent in Kathmandu URL [with photos]: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3695426.stm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 So what is the implied message when this girl's "goddess-hood" is revoked by the onset of puberty? I would have expected goddess status to be a bit more permanent. , "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta> wrote: > KATHMANDU (Sept. 27, 2004): A seven-year-old girl revered by Hindus > and Buddhists as a living goddess has had a rare festive excursion > from the house where she is usually confined in the Nepalese capital, > Kathmandu. > > Crowds roar and young men yell as they tug an ancient wooden chariot > through the lanes of the old city. > > Inside is little Preeti Shakya who herself has been revered as the > Kumari and incarnation of the Hindu mother goddess Durga for the past > three years, in a tradition going back centuries. > > Each Kumari is chosen aged only three or four, always from the same > Buddhist clan, and has to have 32 attributes, including thighs like > those of a deer and a neck like a conch shell. > > She lives a confined life, only coming out of her palace three or four > times a year until she reaches puberty when another Kumari must be found. > > This main outing coincides with a festival of thanks to the local rain > god and as always, her feet must never touch the ground unless there > is a red carpet beneath them. > > FACING FREEDOM > > Some former Kumaris have recently been speaking out about the > difficulties of rejoining a family you hardly know. > > One said it was a real shock being told what to do by teachers and > difficult playing with other children. > > Another, that she simply did not know how to face her freedom. > > A woman MP has even called for the tradition to be abolished. > > But today's Kumari is perhaps relatively lucky. > > Under quite new arrangements, living goddesses nowadays are all > entitled to a formal education with a tutor of their choice. > > SOURCE: BBC News, "Living goddess makes rare outing", by Charles > Haviland, BBC correspondent in Kathmandu > URL [with photos]: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3695426.stm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 Hi Dan ... You are right that the tradition of a "human goddess" is socially problematic, especially to the modern viewpoint. Theologically, I believe that the Kumari is considered an aspect of Goddess, much as part of Srividya involves the worship of Tripurasundari in Her child form, Bala Tripurasundari. But again, socially speaking, it does kind of leave the poor girl dangling in the breeze once she reaches puberty. Here's an Indian analysis of the situation: http://www.thingsasian.com/goto_article/article.1910.html There has also been occasional discussion of the subject in this group, some of which is archived here: http://www.shaktisadhana.org/Resource/Messageboard/MessageBoard7.html Thanks for your comments DB , "danw1960" <danw1960> wrote: > So what is the implied message when this girl's "goddess-hood" is > revoked by the onset of puberty? I would have expected goddess > status to be a bit more permanent. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 Blood is considered "polluting" by these traditions, and so when her menarche commences, she is therefore "unclean", and hence no longer fit to be a Goddess, I suppose! Funny how blood is NOT polluting when it is inside one's veins and keeping one alive, but the minute it appears externally, it becomes "polluting". Lilith M. --- danw1960 <danw1960 wrote: > So what is the implied message when this girl's > "goddess-hood" is > revoked by the onset of puberty? I would have > expected goddess > status to be a bit more permanent. > > , "Devi Bhakta" > > <devi_bhakta> wrote: > > KATHMANDU (Sept. 27, 2004): A seven-year-old girl > revered by Hindus > > and Buddhists as a living goddess has had a rare > festive excursion > > from the house where she is usually confined in > the Nepalese > capital, > > Kathmandu. > > > > Crowds roar and young men yell as they tug an > ancient wooden chariot > > through the lanes of the old city. > > > > Inside is little Preeti Shakya who herself has > been revered as the > > Kumari and incarnation of the Hindu mother goddess > Durga for the > past > > three years, in a tradition going back centuries. > > > > Each Kumari is chosen aged only three or four, > always from the same > > Buddhist clan, and has to have 32 attributes, > including thighs like > > those of a deer and a neck like a conch shell. > > > > She lives a confined life, only coming out of her > palace three or > four > > times a year until she reaches puberty when > another Kumari must be > found. > > > > This main outing coincides with a festival of > thanks to the local > rain > > god and as always, her feet must never touch the > ground unless there > > is a red carpet beneath them. > > > > FACING FREEDOM > > > > Some former Kumaris have recently been speaking > out about the > > difficulties of rejoining a family you hardly > know. > > > > One said it was a real shock being told what to do > by teachers and > > difficult playing with other children. > > > > Another, that she simply did not know how to face > her freedom. > > > > A woman MP has even called for the tradition to be > abolished. > > > > But today's Kumari is perhaps relatively lucky. > > > > Under quite new arrangements, living goddesses > nowadays are all > > entitled to a formal education with a tutor of > their choice. > > > > SOURCE: BBC News, "Living goddess makes rare > outing", by Charles > > Haviland, BBC correspondent in Kathmandu > > URL [with photos]: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3695426.stm > > > _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Regarding the Kumari, it's not just her first period that removes a Kumari from her post. It's the first time she suffers any major blood loss at all. Hence one of the reasons for careful separation of this little girl from all outside potential of harm. This is in reverence of her blood as life force, not a problem with menstration inherent in Eastern thought. If she were to cut her arm and bleed freely, she would be replaced by another little girl who fit the qualifications. Love and light, Allison ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~ And forget not that the earth delights to feel your bare feet and the winds long to play with your hair. Kahlil Gibran (From 'The Prophet') _______________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Well, perhaps you would like to do a little research and find out how menstrual blood is regarded in exoteric Eastern religions? Menstruating women are regularly barred from worship in most temples, and a whole body of superstitions surrounding it exists. I was simply stating a fact, not passing a judgement. If the "living goddess" is dumped off the throne and left to pretty much her own devices when her menarche starts, then perhaps you could suggest another reason for the sudden and ignominous dethronement, perhaps? Lilith M. --- Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta wrote: > Dear Lili: > > Your last post contained the broad generalization > that "blood is > considered 'polluting' by these traditions,and so > when her menarche > commences, she is therefore 'unclean' ... [etc]" > > I do not know the depth of your familiarity with > Eastern occult > spiritual systems, but it appears that you are > painting with an > overly broad brush and without a very subtle > knowledge of "these > traditions" (into which phrase it appears you are > lumping together > all the vast, diverse array of Hindu and Buddhist > spiritual systems). > > Since this group's subject is SHAKTISM, one of the > four major schools > of Hinduism, I suppose I should step in and clarify > that your > generalization does not apply to this tradition. > > The obvious and sensationalistic examples are > Tantric Shakta > scriptures such as the widely known Yoni Tantra, in > which menstrual > fluids are an object of veneration; or the Kamakhya > Temple in Assam > (see post from earlier today if you are interested), > where the most > holy time is that the Goddess's menstruation, and > cloths soaked in > the red fluid that naturally pours from the stone > yoni in the sanctum > sanctorum during this period are the most prized > relics sought by > pilgrims to the site. > > But we need not even go to such "far out" examples > in order to > understand the inapplicability of your > generalizations to this group. > One simply has to examine the scriptures and > traditions: Take the > great Mahaganapati Tarpanam ritual of Sri Vidya (a > most sophisticated > and revered form of Hindu Shaktism) -- the sacred > scriptures > recommend doing this ritual for 40 days, i.e. doing > 444 tarpanams > every day for 40 days. Sri Amritananda Natha > Saraswati, arguably the > greatest exponent of Shakta tradition in our time, > has stated clearly > that, "Women should continue the 40-day routine even > during the time > of their monthly periods," adding, "this 40-day > ritual was in fact > designed by the ancient sages to show in no > uncertain terms that it > is perfectly fine for women to do puja during their > monthly periods." > > I appreciate your input, and I do not doubt that it > was intended in > an honest and compassionate spirit. It is true that > much of > mainstream Hinduism is affected by the same sorts of > > menstruation/purity issues that dog Judaism, > Christianity and Islam. > But much of these prejudiced were imported into > Hinduism recently, > during centuries of Muslim [Mughal] and Christian > [british] rule and > social influences. Originally, the red tilak > traditionally worn on > the forehead of married Hindu women was marked with > menstrual blood, > not merely kumkum. > > I do not object to informed critiques of Shaktism or > its practices. > Part of the purpose of this group is to provide a > forum in which to > air these important issues. But whenever possible, > we ought not to > attack broad targets like "these traditions" without > first refiniong > our understanding of what "these traditions" > actually are. As > concerns the Kumari, it's as I noted in my earlier > response -- it's > problematic. If the actual complexities of the > situation interest > you, I provided a few links to commentary and > previous groups > discussions. > > Aum MAtangyai NamaH > > , Lili Masamura > <sephirah5> > wrote: > > Blood is considered "polluting" by these > traditions, > > and so when her menarche commences, she is > therefore > > "unclean", and hence no longer fit to be a > Goddess, I > > suppose! Funny how blood is NOT polluting when it > is > > inside one's veins and keeping one alive, but the > > minute it appears externally, it becomes > "polluting". > > Lilith M. > > --- danw1960 <danw1960> wrote: > > > > > So what is the implied message when this girl's > > > "goddess-hood" is > > > revoked by the onset of puberty? I would have > > > expected goddess > > > status to be a bit more permanent. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Dear Lilith: Thank you for your post; I believe I addressed all of your restated concerns in my previous post. Also, allisonh424 offered some excellent insight earlier today. DB , Lili Masamura <sephirah5> wrote: > Well, perhaps you would like to do a little research > and find out how menstrual blood is regarded in > exoteric Eastern religions? Menstruating women are > regularly barred from worship in most temples, and a > whole body of superstitions surrounding it exists. I > was simply stating a fact, not passing a judgement. If > the "living goddess" is dumped off the throne and left > to pretty much her own devices when her menarche > starts, then perhaps you could suggest another reason > for the sudden and ignominous dethronement, perhaps? > Lilith M. > --- Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta> wrote: > > > Dear Lili: > > > > Your last post contained the broad generalization > > that "blood is > > considered 'polluting' by these traditions,and so > > when her menarche > > commences, she is therefore 'unclean' ... [etc]" > > > > I do not know the depth of your familiarity with > > Eastern occult > > spiritual systems, but it appears that you are > > painting with an > > overly broad brush and without a very subtle > > knowledge of "these > > traditions" (into which phrase it appears you are > > lumping together > > all the vast, diverse array of Hindu and Buddhist > > spiritual systems). > > > > Since this group's subject is SHAKTISM, one of the > > four major schools > > of Hinduism, I suppose I should step in and clarify > > that your > > generalization does not apply to this tradition. > > > > The obvious and sensationalistic examples are > > Tantric Shakta > > scriptures such as the widely known Yoni Tantra, in > > which menstrual > > fluids are an object of veneration; or the Kamakhya > > Temple in Assam > > (see post from earlier today if you are interested), > > where the most > > holy time is that the Goddess's menstruation, and > > cloths soaked in > > the red fluid that naturally pours from the stone > > yoni in the sanctum > > sanctorum during this period are the most prized > > relics sought by > > pilgrims to the site. > > > > But we need not even go to such "far out" examples > > in order to > > understand the inapplicability of your > > generalizations to this group. > > One simply has to examine the scriptures and > > traditions: Take the > > great Mahaganapati Tarpanam ritual of Sri Vidya (a > > most sophisticated > > and revered form of Hindu Shaktism) -- the sacred > > scriptures > > recommend doing this ritual for 40 days, i.e. doing > > 444 tarpanams > > every day for 40 days. Sri Amritananda Natha > > Saraswati, arguably the > > greatest exponent of Shakta tradition in our time, > > has stated clearly > > that, "Women should continue the 40-day routine even > > during the time > > of their monthly periods," adding, "this 40-day > > ritual was in fact > > designed by the ancient sages to show in no > > uncertain terms that it > > is perfectly fine for women to do puja during their > > monthly periods." > > > > I appreciate your input, and I do not doubt that it > > was intended in > > an honest and compassionate spirit. It is true that > > much of > > mainstream Hinduism is affected by the same sorts of > > > > menstruation/purity issues that dog Judaism, > > Christianity and Islam. > > But much of these prejudiced were imported into > > Hinduism recently, > > during centuries of Muslim [Mughal] and Christian > > [british] rule and > > social influences. Originally, the red tilak > > traditionally worn on > > the forehead of married Hindu women was marked with > > menstrual blood, > > not merely kumkum. > > > > I do not object to informed critiques of Shaktism or > > its practices. > > Part of the purpose of this group is to provide a > > forum in which to > > air these important issues. But whenever possible, > > we ought not to > > attack broad targets like "these traditions" without > > first refiniong > > our understanding of what "these traditions" > > actually are. As > > concerns the Kumari, it's as I noted in my earlier > > response -- it's > > problematic. If the actual complexities of the > > situation interest > > you, I provided a few links to commentary and > > previous groups > > discussions. > > > > Aum MAtangyai NamaH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Lili Masamura > > <sephirah5> > > wrote: > > > Blood is considered "polluting" by these > > traditions, > > > and so when her menarche commences, she is > > therefore > > > "unclean", and hence no longer fit to be a > > Goddess, I > > > suppose! Funny how blood is NOT polluting when it > > is > > > inside one's veins and keeping one alive, but the > > > minute it appears externally, it becomes > > "polluting". > > > Lilith M. > > > --- danw1960 <danw1960> wrote: > > > > > > > So what is the implied message when this girl's > > > > "goddess-hood" is > > > > revoked by the onset of puberty? I would have > > > > expected goddess > > > > status to be a bit more permanent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 After reading the article and supporting info it is clearly a bit of overstatement to consider the girl in question a living goddess. It is perhaps more accurate to call her a vessel of the goddess. And if she bleeds from injury or the onset of menses, the spirit who has taken up residence in her decides it's time to leave. Personally I would have been more gratified if the spirit in question took up residence at the the onset of menarche, but it's not my religion to define. I do think this sort of treatment may well explain why eastern feminists don't particularly favor the goddess beliefs. The reality around this system at least doesn't seem particularly flattering to adult women (including the superstition that the husband of an ex-Kumari will die an early death). Lili Masamura <sephirah5 wrote: Well, perhaps you would like to do a little research and find out how menstrual blood is regarded in exoteric Eastern religions? Menstruating women are regularly barred from worship in most temples, and a whole body of superstitions surrounding it exists. I was simply stating a fact, not passing a judgement. If the "living goddess" is dumped off the throne and left to pretty much her own devices when her menarche starts, then perhaps you could suggest another reason for the sudden and ignominous dethronement, perhaps? Lilith M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Were all vessels of the Deity and so is the Kumari, it's just that her personality fills a particular dharshan need apparently for these worshippers. We should think how lucky they are to have a living personality of the Deity amongst them, or so they believe. Of course again, I find that everyone seems to be crazy since we are all the eyes and ears of the Gods. It was rudraksha that taught me this, because I'd be sitting someplace and say, "So let's see, these are God according to their own scriptures." And then all of a sudden I realized that yes, God is omnipresent, and the devas can dance on the head of a pin. - Dan W Wednesday, September 29, 2004 1:50 PM Re: Re: Nepal's 'Living Goddess' Makes Rare Outing After reading the article and supporting info it is clearly a bit of overstatement to consider the girl in question a living goddess. It is perhaps more accurate to call her a vessel of the goddess. And if she bleeds from injury or the onset of menses, the spirit who has taken up residence in her decides it's time to leave. Personally I would have been more gratified if the spirit in question took up residence at the the onset of menarche, but it's not my religion to define. I do think this sort of treatment may well explain why eastern feminists don't particularly favor the goddess beliefs. The reality around this system at least doesn't seem particularly flattering to adult women (including the superstition that the husband of an ex-Kumari will die an early death). Lili Masamura <sephirah5 wrote: Well, perhaps you would like to do a little research and find out how menstrual blood is regarded in exoteric Eastern religions? Menstruating women are regularly barred from worship in most temples, and a whole body of superstitions surrounding it exists. I was simply stating a fact, not passing a judgement. If the "living goddess" is dumped off the throne and left to pretty much her own devices when her menarche starts, then perhaps you could suggest another reason for the sudden and ignominous dethronement, perhaps? Lilith M. / b.. c.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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