Are Gardnerians homophobic sexists?

September 30, 2004

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:45:03 -0000 "prainbow61" <paulie-rainbow

writes:

>

> In general, my experience is that Dianic groups focus on the Goddess

>

> as the primary or sole Deity. Most groups are women only, I

> understand that some groups are gender mixed and I have heard that

> there are men only Dianic groups, but I haven't personally known of

> any.

I am a male Wiccan who is predominently a Goddess worshipper. Shaktism

(Hindu Goddess worship) strongly informs my personal Wiccan practice. I

also have a (mostly) separate Hindu <sadhana>.

When I worship male Gods, they are invariably linked and in relationship

to female Goddesses. Not necessarily sexually -- as if sex were the only

relationship that males and females (or Gods and Goddesses) can share!

What about men's relationships to their Mothers, Sisters, Teachers,

Daughters, and female Friends?

I am especially devoted to Ganesha, who deputizes for his Mother,

Parvati, and frequently is portrayed as a bachelor. I often invoke Frey,

whose richest relationship is with his Sister, Freyja. I work with

Hephaistos, whose married love life with Aphrodite is problematic, but is

devoted to his Mother Hera and his Sister Athena. The Dagda is a

nurturing parent to his Daughter, Brigit.

>

> In the Dianic groups with which I have been acquainted or a part of

> the identification of the participants was mixed though they did

> seem to attract a higher percentage of lesbians, probably because

> these women are more woman/female focussed in general.

>

<snip>

> However, in other mainstream Wicca groups, in particular the

> Gardnerian tradition, the liturgy does include references to the

> Divine partnership between the Goddess and the God and this has

> primacy in the mythology as important to energy, balance and the

> creation of the universe etc. These groups can tend to be

> overwhelmingly heterosexual, some require a gender balance for

> ritual to take place. Non-heterosexuals sometimes find this off-

> putting.

It's hard to tar all Gardnerians with same brush. I am Gardnerian. Much

of Gerald Gardner's writings are homophobic and sexist, but hey, he was a

child of his times (the early 20th Century). My teachers were NOT

homophobic and sexist, and when I started my own coven, I was determined

to teach that all genders and orientations were acceptable, and we are

blessed and protected by BOTH Goddess and God. We have done away with

"boy versus girl" as the primary magical polarity, and cast roles without

too much regard to gender. (I remember a Norse working where a female

redhead braided her long hair under her chin and played the role of

Thor!)

Our Wine Blessing is as often done by two males or two females as by a

man and a woman. We teach our students to channel both the Goddess and

the God. We just celebrated Harvest Home, and enacted the Greek

Mysteries of Eleusis, where the "Divine Couple" is not Husband and Wife,

but Mother and Daughter.

I suspect that in my personal devotions and magical work, many Wiccans

would consider me a (male) Dianic! And Gardnerian to boot! Don't

generalize about all Gardnerians. We are a mixed bag.

-- Len/ Black Lotus

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September 30, 2004

Now I am not being rude, but merely curious here........How much of a real

history does something like Dianic Wicca have???? Isn't this all a rather recent

phenomenon??? I know some of the ideas and folk magic concepts go back

further, naturally, but isn't wicca as known today mostly a creation of Gerald

Gardner???

I'm admittedly ignorant on the subject so the questions are sincere.

a message dated 9/30/2004 2:01:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

paulie-rainbow writes:

Now given that my personal experience does include being treated

quite rudely by members of this tradition, including being told that

Dianics cannot truly be considered witches because they have such an

unbalanced tradition with no real history (!),

September 30, 2004

Namaste,

Please be assured that I am not out attacking Gardnerians.

I am in a conservative western state of the US where there are

predominantly groups of that tradition or a derivative.

Though my personal experience with them has been less than

impressive and sometimes quite off-putting, I was at great pains to

craft my language to include the spectrum of the tradition.

To this end I specifically chose to write:

"this does *include*" and "does have *primacy*" which does not mean

that there is nothing else.

Also I wrote "as important to energy, balance and the creation of

the universe etc." which is a statement quite broad, not at all

excluding the types of work that you mention.

Now given that my personal experience does include being treated

quite rudely by members of this tradition, including being told that

Dianics cannot truly be considered witches because they have such an

unbalanced tradition with no real history (!), and as I have been

subjected to presumptions of the heterosexuality of divinity, magic

and ritual that were quite astonishing and, if you will "broad

brushed" I still was at pains to make my post be much more open and

inclusive while trying to respond to what I consider to be equally

preposterous postings about the Dianic tradition that contradict my

direct and extended experience, well....I take exception that you

head your post with the question "Are Gardnerians homophobic

sexists?"

Especially since I have had poignant experience with Gardnerians who

were, in fact, homophobic sexists and I went to great lengths to NOT

make that presumption about the whole passel of them, I would like

for that courtesy to find some acknowledgement here.

Would it have been possible, my brother, for you to post your own

personal experience, without slyly sticking me for a fault which I

feel I went to great lengths to avoid?

Please forgive any insult I may have given herein. I intend none. I

would like to put this little fire out and turn my attention to the

blazes in other threads.

Blessings,

prainbow

, kalipadma@j... wrote:

>

> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:45:03 -0000 "prainbow61" <paulie-

rainbow@u...>

> writes:

> >

> > In general, my experience is that Dianic groups focus on the

Goddess

> >

> > as the primary or sole Deity. Most groups are women only, I

> > understand that some groups are gender mixed and I have heard

that

> > there are men only Dianic groups, but I haven't personally known

of

> > any.

>

> I am a male Wiccan who is predominently a Goddess worshipper.

Shaktism

> (Hindu Goddess worship) strongly informs my personal Wiccan

practice. I

> also have a (mostly) separate Hindu <sadhana>.

>

> When I worship male Gods, they are invariably linked and in

relationship

> to female Goddesses. Not necessarily sexually -- as if sex were

the only

> relationship that males and females (or Gods and Goddesses) can

share!

> What about men's relationships to their Mothers, Sisters, Teachers,

> Daughters, and female Friends?

>

> I am especially devoted to Ganesha, who deputizes for his Mother,

> Parvati, and frequently is portrayed as a bachelor. I often

invoke Frey,

> whose richest relationship is with his Sister, Freyja. I work with

> Hephaistos, whose married love life with Aphrodite is problematic,

but is

> devoted to his Mother Hera and his Sister Athena. The Dagda is a

> nurturing parent to his Daughter, Brigit.

>

> >

> > In the Dianic groups with which I have been acquainted or a part

of

> > the identification of the participants was mixed though they did

> > seem to attract a higher percentage of lesbians, probably

because

> > these women are more woman/female focussed in general.

> >

> <snip>

> > However, in other mainstream Wicca groups, in particular the

> > Gardnerian tradition, the liturgy does include references to the

> > Divine partnership between the Goddess and the God and this has

> > primacy in the mythology as important to energy, balance and the

> > creation of the universe etc. These groups can tend to be

> > overwhelmingly heterosexual, some require a gender balance for

> > ritual to take place. Non-heterosexuals sometimes find this off-

> > putting.

>

> It's hard to tar all Gardnerians with same brush. I am

Gardnerian. Much

> of Gerald Gardner's writings are homophobic and sexist, but hey,

he was a

> child of his times (the early 20th Century). My teachers were NOT

> homophobic and sexist, and when I started my own coven, I was

determined

> to teach that all genders and orientations were acceptable, and we

are

> blessed and protected by BOTH Goddess and God. We have done away

with

> "boy versus girl" as the primary magical polarity, and cast roles

without

> too much regard to gender. (I remember a Norse working where a

female

> redhead braided her long hair under her chin and played the role of

> Thor!)

>

> Our Wine Blessing is as often done by two males or two females as

by a

> man and a woman. We teach our students to channel both the

Goddess and

> the God. We just celebrated Harvest Home, and enacted the Greek

> Mysteries of Eleusis, where the "Divine Couple" is not Husband and

Wife,

> but Mother and Daughter.

>

> I suspect that in my personal devotions and magical work, many

Wiccans

> would consider me a (male) Dianic! And Gardnerian to boot! Don't

> generalize about all Gardnerians. We are a mixed bag.

>

> -- Len/ Black Lotus

>

> ______________

> Get your name as your email address.

> Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more

> Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today!

September 30, 2004

Namaste,

I beg your pardon for my need to give this rather short shrift.

Please do not interpret my brevity as a lack of respect for your

question.

1. Nearhly all current iterations of religion can be said to be

rather recent. The protestant church in colorado springs that seats

1500 people, 3x every Sunday is nothing like the small cultish

gatherings of Christians in various greek homes in the first

centuries of the current era.

2. Shaktism is a baby compared to most of Hinduism, but it can be

argued that it is merely a more modern and literate expression of a

very ancient tradition.

3. The traditions of all gender segregated religious groups is as

old as the development of altars....specifically however, the

tradition of a feminine monotheism, or (different but overlapping

phenomenon) a gender segregated female religious group is pretty

darned ancient as well. For western society this was uprooted and

replaced by masculine monotheism and women who wanted to be only

among women in religious life found themselves in convents...or

brothels it could be argued...

4. We could spend hours talking about what happened to the Goddess

in Western civilization...my perspective is that with the

development of concentrated civilization and armed struggles for

land and political power somehow changed the dynamic of religious

identification, resulting in even pagan societies becoming more

oriented to the masculine divine.

5. Was the Goddess always there? Yes. Just as I was born a witch the

Goddess has always been there for us. Dianics don't decide based on

political affiliations to become Dianics...it's something that

you're born with, it makes sense in your soul. Dianics are an

eclectic bunch but the folks practicing have pulled together the

artifacts of past worship and bridged the gap with creativity.

Perhaps they've even been influenced by Gardner....or Tibetan

Buddhism...or Shakti Sadhana. For myself, I'm an unabashed fan of

ancient Goddess writings.

When I look at this fragment from Sappho written about 2500 years

ago, and I know that this resembles what I do once a month, no, my

tradition doesn't really seem so recent...

Then, as the broad moon rose on high,

The maidens stood the altar nigh;

And some in graceful measure

The well-loved spot danced round,

With lightsome footsteps treading

The soft and grassy ground.

Blessings,

prainbow

, swastik108@a... wrote:

> Now I am not being rude, but merely curious here........How much

of a real

> history does something like Dianic Wicca have???? Isn't this all a

rather recent

> phenomenon??? I know some of the ideas and folk magic concepts go

back

> further, naturally, but isn't wicca as known today mostly a

creation of Gerald

> Gardner???

>

> I'm admittedly ignorant on the subject so the questions are

sincere.

>

> a message dated 9/30/2004 2:01:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> paulie-rainbow@u... writes:

>

> Now given that my personal experience does include being treated

> quite rudely by members of this tradition, including being told

that

> Dianics cannot truly be considered witches because they have such

an

> unbalanced tradition with no real history (!),

September 30, 2004

Namaste,

pardon me for the intrusion, but i cant help but ask...when you say that you are

a born witch, are you suggesting the concept of a witch to be that of an old

woman dressed in black rags with a pointed hat and a broom stick.....or are you

suggesting that witches are a good thing to be...something to be proud of...oh

and can shed some light on what being a witch means.

regards,

cleve.

prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote: