Male Shaktas Lack Credibility

[Guest guest]

Look Ellen, I am really busy right now with family commitment, but

when the right time comes, I shall respond to this message of yours

and the previous ones.

 

Personally from my point of view after reading your other messages,

the person who is really lacking is you. Please look within yourself

first before you tells others that they are lacking.

 

Is this so called spiritualism in the women studies have taught you

to be?

[Guest guest]

Nora:

 

If I may offer some advice, I would say there is no real need to

address Ellen's rather inflammatory pronouncements on the dynamics of

gender and spirituality.

 

Arguments are useful when two people are attempting to reach common

ground and understanding. Ellen appears to be extremely set and

certain in her social-historical-spiritual beliefs, and to judge the

opinions of others by two main criteria: (1) the gender of the

opinion-holder (males are inherently suspect; females are acceptable

to the extennt that they are not contaminated by "patriarchal"

socialization); and (2) the extent to which the opinion conforms to

her established beliefs (if similar, acceptable; if less so,

patriarcially contaminated).

 

Different people are comfortable on different levels of reality.

Ellen, as as openly transgendered person, is a male who has made an

astonishingly deep commitment to live as a female, to the furthest

extent that the limits of male DNA allows (presumably through some

combination of surgery, pharmaceuticals, transvestism, etc).

 

Whatever one may think of the transgender lifestyle, one cannot but be

struck by the depth of her courage, commitment, resolution and pure

grit in choosing a path that is so true to her own beliefs and

self-perceptions. However, that same sense of resolution would also

seem to at least partially explain her reaction to postings that

dismiss our physical genders as transient sheathes, ultimately

 

Ellen has, I would say, invested an extraordinary depth of resources

-- emotionally, bodily, financially, and otherwise -- in a lifestyle

and worldview that is profoundly defined at the gross/physical level

of reality. It is quite natural, therefore, that she would have

limited use for a philosophy -- such as Tantric Shaktism -- which

places primacy on *subtle* and *transcendant* (rather than

gross/manifest) body characteristics; in which women and men accept

female and male gurus alike as manifestations of Devi; in which one's

spiritual authority is determined by subtle criteria entirely apart

external indicators like gender, color, ethnicity, social position,

educational level, caste, etc.

 

Last week, I tried to address some of Ellen's concerns, and to clarify

the way traditional Shaktism manifests in modern times. Ellen made

several shut-out responses that made me shrug and abandon the dialogue

-- because I dialogue requires at least some degree of give-and-take.

Ellen explained that:

 

* she was not interested in revolutionary social applications of

Tantra, such as vi-1, because it is headed by husband-wife Gurus,

rather than a female guru alone. She stated: "I do not doubt that

Tantrics have social consciences ... That is not in question. Frankly,

though, I would have been far more impressed to hear of a woman who is

a foremost living exponent of Shakta Tantra." (Strike One)

 

* despite compelling historical/anecdotal evidence to the contrary,

she dimissed the entire vast, ancient Tanric canon "an arguably

part-female oral tradition filtered through presumably all-male

literary tradition," and polluted by "patriarchalized ideas."(Strike Two)

 

* despite the equal reverence of Tantric Shaktas for female and male

gurus, she wanted to "get past all the male voices speaking for Devi

so that can hear Her speaking through Her women's voices." (Strike Three)

 

Three strikes, I was out. ;-) ... Rather than clog the message board

with more pointless back and forth, and pollute visions of ancient

Indian "Tantric priestesses" dispensing certifiably female advice to

all-women congregations, I just respected Ellen's wishes, and shut the

hell up. Perhaps you should consider doing the same?

 

Aum MAtangyai NamaH

 

DB

[Guest guest]

I agree ; this subject is of no relevance. Lets stop here.

 

Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta wrote:

Nora:

 

If I may offer some advice, I would say there is no real need to address Ellen's

rather inflammatory ronouncements on the dynamics of gender and spirituality.

 

.................................................

 

 

 

 

vote. - Register online to vote today!

 

 

[Guest guest]

FYI kali is not worshipped so commonly among the sattwic groups/families.

 

In society men and woman complement each others role. Neither one is

superior to the other. Its only the "illiterate" who harbor beliefs

such as the superiority of goddess versus god etc. In India Sun is

considered a male god. In egyptian it was considered feminine. Both

views does not change what the external Sun does to nature and

sustaining lives.

Customs etc evolve according to necessity for survival. If a Muslim

woman wears a parda, definitely in that society she also is respected

and privileged in certain ways.

[Guest guest]

"My concern is about whether a male controlled Goddess religion can be

liberating for women."

NO ONE CONTROLS A SHAKTA. NO MALE OR FEMALE. IS IT THAT AUTHOR IS CONFUSING THE

SYSTEM OF HINDUISM WHICH IS INDIVIDUALISTIC WITH NO CENTRAL ONTROLLING AUTHORITY

TO THE CHURCH THATS CENTRALLY CONTROLLED?

WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT EACH MAY EXPOUND HIS OR HER OWN VIEW AND THE SADHAKA - MALE

OR FEMALE ACEPTS THAT WHICH HE OR SHE IS COMFORTABLE WITH.

"with women often serving as instrumental means to that end" THIS IS THE MOST

PREPOSTEROUS STATEMENT I HAVE COME ACCROSS. I WONDER WHAT THE QUALIFICATION OF

YOUR INSTRUCTOR IS? GLIB TALK QUOTING HERE AND THERE WITHOUT ANY REAL EXPERIENCE

IN ALL PROBABLITY.

 

Ellen McGowen <ellen.mcgowen wrote:

My concern is about whether a male controlled Goddess religion can be liberating

for women.

What I have seen here confirms the assessment of my Kali workshop instructor

that nearly all of Shakta Tantra is male dominated and focused primarily on male

spiritual advancement, with women often serving as instrumental means to that

end. She did find a small sect in which women had significant control, and that

is the one she was initiated in. However, even there the women were unskilled at

analyzing the sexual power dynamics of their lives and religious traditions.

 

.................................

 

 

 

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/5/2004 12:05:50 AM Mountain Daylight Time,

ellen.mcgowen writes:

> So women run as many temples as men do?

 

Do we have a woman president? No we do not.

How will you remedy this situation where men have dominated for so long?

By transcending it -- through creating your own utopian realm where only

women rule? While you are in that realm, you will become incapable of effecting

changes in the realm you have just transcended, by the simple virtue of your

need to be Beyond it.

 

It seems to me this group is headed by two women.

If you want to change something, you have to go down into it.

Of course there is an imbalance of male to females in charge in many kinds of

situations all over the world..

Of course there are subtleties and insidious elements of women's liberation

yet to be worked out.

 

It is my understanding that this list is run by two women.

It is my understanding that the focus of this group is the evolution of

Shakti.

A group for evolving and expounding on Shakti, run by two women.

 

This world is not a utopia -- it is filled with people of varying degrees of

evolution.

If you want to change something within this religion, study it, learn it,

BECOME a Female Guru yourself, and spread a positive message encouraging other

women to do so.

Start your own version of Shakti, after you have gone through Sunday school

and Sunday Worship and gone to college and taken classes in Thealogy and grown

up in it, steeped in it, awash in it, until it has become your breath and your

blood and it evolves through your own heartbeat and your own breath and your

own blood until it is something personal. That is what a man would do -- just

do it..

 

You've made your point: you want MORE WOMEN SHAKTA or only women Shakta, but

it seems you are shouting into the wind and how will you bring about something

that you have no power over?.

By complaining, you are not going to get all the Men to leave.

It seems to me the only rational course of action is to become the one you

are looking for, and those who need to align with your personal Wisdom, will

seek you out.

 

Blessings,

Cathie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Ellen McGowen <ellen.mcgowen wrote:

> My concern is about whether a male controlled Goddess religion can be

> liberating for women.

>

 

You grew up in a "male controlled" society and yet you seem to have found

your own liberation.

 

WE EACH MUST LIBERATE OURSELVES. NO RELIGION, NOT EVEN A RELIGION COMPOSED

EXCLUSIVELY OF A FEMALE HIERARCHY CAN LIBERATE YOU. ONLY YOU CAN HEAL

YOURSELF.

 

THE ONLY ANSWER IS FOR YOU TO BECOME THE ONE YOU SEEK.

 

that and WHY do you keep battling the Wise Women who ARE WOMEN who run this

list? If you are For Women? This list is run by Women.

 

We are all On the Path. And you are no different.

 

Become the Changes you Seek by Studying Learning and Creating your own

Changes.

 

Blessings,

Cathie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Let me be quite frank. What i read at the site had me laughing. IMHO It looks

like a make money somehow thing prying on the vulnerablities of people. Having

read something here and there and not having had training it is easy to market

the ideas taken out of context and mixing and matching diverse systems aimed at

so called "feminists" who are either victims of abuse or has different sexual

orintation. This is just my personal view. Maybe I am wrong.

 

Ellen McGowen <ellen.mcgowen wrote:

So women run as many temples as men do? There are as many women students as

men students? As many of the books written by women as men?I am talking about

control of institutions, not control of individuals or necessarily by a central

authority like the Vatican E.g. decisions about how a temple's money is spent.

 

The instructor, Chandra Alexandra, runs this site www.maabatakali.org You

may read about her there.

 

Jai Ma,

Ellen

 

 

 

 

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

vote. - Register online to vote today!

 

 

[Guest guest]

It seems to me in a religion with such a diversity of deities and such a

tremendous room for freedom of expression, one might have a little empathy,

also for this one.

What good is it if it doesn't come from the Heart?

Jesus and Kali alike suffer little childeren.

To them belongs heaven, innocence.

Who cares if this woman wants to share her religion with others. It's what

she feels in her heart. She's on the right path if she is following her

heart.

What if she makes money also?

I admit, I would not give her my own money, because I have my own

religion and it keeps growing and changing. There is a living core of Ether

that

partakes of both male and female form in deity as well as creaturly

womanifestations.

It seems to me the great strength of India, is in her capacity to

absorb such tremendous diversity within one spiritual system.

Sure, her experience of certain deities/Faces of Ether and Will may

differe from your own according to the way each of us is raised. What can we do

about that?

I sympathise with the need to form all female groups. But if you

can't deal with the shit --- some of us need to heal. We've learned limiting

belifefs. Everyone has a special Wisdom to share.

As for me, I have my own in my back pocket and avoid giving handouts

to other religions so they can give me theirs.

I LIKE it here. I've been away for a while doing personal work, but I

LOVE this group even when I can't keep up or don't necessarily want to

convert. I"m too rebellious and independent. I'm an artist.

So it is with artists and feminists. We need to feel our full

expanse. Isn't that what this group is all about?

Thank Goddess it is all for FREE.

Maybe we should sit in front of a pile of shit and throw all the

female Shaktas into the river?

I'm inspired by the freedom of expression of everyone on this group,

and the willingness of all parties to engage in the great Process

 

Peace, Love and Poetic License,

Cathie

n a message dated 10/5/2004 3:12:15 AM Mountain Daylight Time,

kochu1tz writes:

> Let me be quite frank. What i read at the site had me laughing. IMHO It

> looks like a make money somehow thing prying on the vulnerablities of people.

> Having read something here and there and not having had training it is easy to

> market the ideas taken out of context and mixing and matching diverse systems

> aimed at so called "feminists" who are either victims of abuse or has

> different sexual orintation. This is just my personal view. Maybe I am wrong.

>

> Ellen McGowen <ellen.mcgowen wrote:

> So women run as many temples as men do? There are as many women students as

> men students? As many of the books written by women as men?I am talking

> about control of institutions, not control of individuals or necessarily by a

> central authority like the Vatican E.g. decisions about how a temple's money

is

> spent.

>

> The instructor, Chandra Alexandra, runs this site www.maabatakali.org You

> may read about her there.

>

> Jai Ma,

> Ellen

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Growing up a woman would probably learn arts like bharathanatyam etc

where as a man would go and learn martial arts in a hindu household.

 

Men has biologically something which woman does not have (or which

they have only in a primordial form). If they forever become obsessed

with not having something which they are not supposed to have, there

will be very different customs and practices built. But this is not

what the mainstream will follow.

 

There's not a single male which gave birth to another being. Does that

atleast make a woman happy?.

 

Sorry to be so blunt, it is getting to the limits.

 

, "Ellen McGowen"

<ellen.mcgowen@w...> wrote:

>

> So women run as many temples as men do? There are as many women

students as

> men students? As many of the books written by women as men?I am

talking about control of institutions, not control of individuals or

necessarily by a central authority like the Vatican E.g. decisions

about how a temple's money is spent.

>

> The instructor, Chandra Alexandra, runs this site

www.maabatakali.org You

> may read about her there.

>

> Jai Ma,

> Ellen

[Guest guest]

Yes worship of Kali is tamasic. Not to me, thats what it is.

Kali denotes time. It has its place and importance.

 

Have you heard about Durga, Gauri, other female dieties in shakti

sadhana?.

 

I am sorry, all it says loud in your posts is that you or someone you

know have been oppressed. Or atleast "your" imagination thinks they

are being oppressed.

 

, "Ellen McGowen"

<ellen.mcgowen@w...> wrote:

>

>

> -

> malyavan_tibet

>

> Monday, October 04, 2004 8:55 PM

> Re: Male Shaktas Lack Credibility

>

>

>

>

> "FYI kali is not worshipped so commonly among the sattwic

groups/families"

>

> Probably not. Kali people would be "tamasic" to you, no? I think in

> English

> we might say "counterculture". The word the instructor used was

> "antinomian",

> which means "opposed to the norms" ... Uppity woman land.

>

> "In society men and woman complement each others role."

>

> As long as they have equal rights, equal incomes, equal property, and

> equal power in all institutions, they can complement each other all

> they like. But if they do not, the word for the situation is not

> "complementary":

> it is *oppression*.

>

>

> Jai Ma, Ellen

[Guest guest]

> There's not a single male which gave birth to another being. Does that

> atleast make a woman happy?.

>

 

I hate to be so obvious, but there is not a single woman who gave birth to

another being without the sperm of a male.

 

I enjoy being around men. Many of my friends are men. I admire especially

men who take a genuine interest in the Goddess.

 

Blessings,

Cathie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

and male shaktas are not doing it to get approval from women; at least not me

and many I know

 

malyavan_tibet <malyavan_tibet wrote:

Growing up a woman would probably learn arts like bharathanatyam etc

where as a man would go and learn martial arts in a hindu household.

 

Men has biologically something which woman does not have (or which

they have only in a primordial form). If they forever become obsessed

with not having something which they are not supposed to have, there

will be very different customs and practices built. But this is not

what the mainstream will follow.

 

There's not a single male which gave birth to another being. Does that

atleast make a woman happy?.

 

Sorry to be so blunt, it is getting to the limits.

 

, "Ellen McGowen"

<ellen.mcgowen@w...> wrote:

>

> So women run as many temples as men do? There are as many women

students as

> men students? As many of the books written by women as men?I am

talking about control of institutions, not control of individuals or

necessarily by a central authority like the Vatican E.g. decisions

about how a temple's money is spent.

>

> The instructor, Chandra Alexandra, runs this site

www.maabatakali.org You

> may read about her there.

>

> Jai Ma,

> Ellen

 

 

 

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/5/2004 3:43:23 PM Mountain Daylight Time,

ellen.mcgowen writes:

> These men do not have a clue of what Ma is about, any more than Catholic

> theologians speaking for Mary do.

>

>

 

Well, Ellen,

I admire your intelligence and I see your Wisdom if I don't agree with

you on all the specifics.

I do agree with you, that we become too cocky when we assume we know

too much about what it is like to be a man, or a woman, when we are of the

opposite sex.

I presume, you being a woman who used to be a man, might lend you some

special insight into this.

Certainly, if that is the question, then I agree with you, that women

understand women from the inside out, men from the outside in.

One does not negate the other, just makes things interesting.

And as you point out, there's ways Women have Overstanding over men,

too, and see things sometimes better than they see themselves.

 

Blessings,

Cathie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/5/2004 3:43:23 PM Mountain Daylight Time,

ellen.mcgowen writes:

> >>>"Start your own version of Shakti," <<<

>

> No, I think Chandra's version is fine. But my path lies elsewhere; my matron

> Goddess is the Cretan/Old European Serpent Mother. Also, I worry that Shakta

> is too dependent on expressing itself through Sanskrit terminology, and that

> is an serious impediment for most western women.

>

> In the west the draw is "Tantric sex". Guys will do anything for sex, even

> learn a few words of Sanskrit if they must...

>

>

 

I like the Female Sun Deities, such as Akewa and the Heaven Shining She(

Japanese ) and enjoy now getting to know them.

 

I think we all have ways we can evolve, learn, and grow.

 

I'm sure if there is a great enough need/desire, it will happen eventually,

so these Wisdoms can be more accessible to us all.

 

I know what you mean about Western Guys -- and the one's who get into tantra,

many of them must be no different...

 

 

Blessings,

Cathie